Masculine and feminine energies?
By Leca
@lecanis (16647)
Murfreesboro, Tennessee
May 12, 2007 8:42pm CST
Okay, to start off on the right foot here, I'll let you know I'm not Wiccan. =p
I've been involved with Pagan groups of many different kinds, most of which have members from many traditions rather than just one. When in ritual with Wiccans, I've noticed that they always automatically assigned roles by gender, which kind of boggled my mind. When short of on men once, a friend of mine said "What are we going to do for masculine or God energy?" So I said, "Ummm... don't we have any women with strong masculine sides here? Like maybe... me?" This suggestion apparently boggled her mind, because she immediately said "We'll just do a Goddess ritual" and pretended the whole thing never happened.
Now, I'm not sure if this is purely a Wiccan standpoint or if it's a personal thing, but most of the people I've seen talk about it that way are Wiccan. Do you believe that women can only invoke Goddesses and men Gods? Or that masculine and feminine energy involved in ritual has to come from someone of the appropriate gender? Is it a fairly common Wiccan belief?
If you aren't Wiccan, feel free to let me know how your branch of paganism deals with such things, or if it even comes up. For me, it's never come up... when doing rituals with my great-grandmother who taught me, I never even thought about a lack of male energy. From the Celtic standpoint, both men and women lead ritual, together or alone, or even in groups of uneven numbers of the genders.
6 people like this
12 responses
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 May 07
Like zukepr I'm a solitary...and I too have never found a problem about invoking/evoking either male or female entities or energies...I wasn't even AWARE that there was supposed to be a problem--LOL---but unfortunately there are some traditions of wicca that are a lot stricter and do have their set rules...Within each of us we do possess and have both feminine and male energies..the ying and yang kind of thing to be balanced..so why should it be a problem to drawn upon either energy?
3 people like this
@lecanis (16647)
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee
13 May 07
Haha, I must just attract people with strange ideas! It seems like I've met several Wiccans who felt this way, or thought it was weird that I just as often invoked gods as goddesses, with my being female. =p
I agree that we all have both energies!
1 person likes this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 May 07
Maybe that is the great advantage of being a solitary though..we can do whatever we want..we set our own "rules"
2 people like this
@lecanis (16647)
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee
13 May 07
Haha that is definitely a plus! These days I'm really enjoying my spirituality as a private thing, and enjoying having small rituals. Fairly recently I was involved with a small group for a long time, and it just finally wasn't what I wanted. But once in a while I do crave having other people to work with.
1 person likes this
@emeraldisle (13139)
• United States
13 May 07
Like many others here I'm a solitary practitioner but I also follow more of a Celtic path which has more balance between males and females then others I've noticed. I could be wrong on this and just what I myself have observed. Personally I don't think it matters what the person's gender is so much as the thoughts and intentions are being centered upon. It's the persons outlook. Now I will agree that if you have a group with both genders there then it might be better to have a male to represent the male god but I don't think it's necessary for the ritual so much as for our thought process.
@emeraldisle (13139)
• United States
13 May 07
I didn't think you were doing the I'm more butch type thing. I agree if no male is there then there is no reason not to have a female represent the male side. It's a representation, not the real thing after all :) I think it was a bit silly of them not to let a female represent the male. After all how many men played women for centuries in plays? If they can play a woman why can't a woman play a man? Now I know a play isn't the same as a ritual but it's the same when you are looking at representation.
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@lecanis (16647)
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee
13 May 07
*nods* I have seen that balance a lot more, with my own experience on a Celtic path.
I don't think it matters the person's gender either, though I agree that if both genders were present, it would make the most sense to have a male represent the male god and a female the female one. I'm not playing a game of "I'm more butch than you" or anything, I was just surprised at the unwillingness to allow a female to play that role when there was no male present.
1 person likes this
@ItTakesAllSorts (4096)
•
13 May 07
As I am not religious or follow this line of thought I cannot understand what is masculine and feminine energies. Isn't it all the same anyway.
If I am with someone who exudes a certain energy around them I do not look at whether it is mas or fem, its just something that person has. Being masculine has alot to do with the amount of testosterone we have and some woman can have high levels as some men, so I cannot see how rituals can be performed by this way of thinking, but as I do not know much about Wiccan rituals I can't really make a sound opinion, so I am just going by what I personally think.
Does it just come down to the usual, man over woman or a heirachy system like most things in life. I remember when there was outcry when the church started to allow women priests and vicars?
1 person likes this
@ItTakesAllSorts (4096)
•
14 May 07
Thanks for the insight lecanis, it does sound fascinating and I have often been drawn to this kind of religion. When I visit the West country where I live I am fascinated by the mystery of it all, but I have never met anyone who follows this religion.
1 person likes this
@lecanis (16647)
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee
13 May 07
Thanks for offering a new perspective! Because of religious influences, I was kind of always taught "masculine and feminine" energies, so it's interesting to look at it another way.
I don't think it comes down to a "man over woman" thing, because in modern practice Wicca is predominantly lead by women. In fact, men in Wicca often feel they can't be the primary leaders of groups, even if they are given duties in ritual. At the moment I'm reading a book specifically for pagan men that addresses this issue.
1 person likes this
@highflyingxangel (9225)
• United States
13 May 07
That's quite interesting. This is actually the first case I've ever this happen in, especially in Wiccan circles. Most of them are not very gender stereotypical. They usually will assign roles based on personalities, not gender.
For me, I'm pretty much wiccan, I don't see what the big deal is. Not everyone is completely feminine or masculine. And to assign roles based on gender, is just like regular society today, and I thought wiccans were about getting over those hurdles and not worrying about gender, because everyone was equal.
2 people like this
@lecanis (16647)
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee
13 May 07
Maybe it has something to do with the area in which I grew up? Could be a regional thing and not Wiccan at all, but it was only Wiccans with which I experienced this issue, not other types of Pagans.
Thanks for sharing your input!
1 person likes this
@xParanoiax (6987)
• United States
22 May 07
Hehe..that's another issue I've thought lots on..though not exactly from a pagan standpoint.
Most people believe that only girls have feminine characterists, or energies likewise with guys. Though many a psycologist knows that everyone has a bit of both..feminine and masculine.
So, if I were in your situation I probably would've been the same.."Uh, how about we just..get one of the girls we have to do it?" I mean, pfft..it's a minor detail, so the girl's not a guy, so what? We're all apart of everything around us, right? Why not tap into that masculinity?
Folks are funny sometimes.
1 person likes this
@lecanis (16647)
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee
22 May 07
*nods* I had a really hard time struggling with that issue on a social level when I was younger. I have very few interests that are typically considered female, and it made life hard for me because I grew up in a place big on gender roles. So I can see it from that point of view too.
Folks are very funny sometimes, yes I agree. =p
@xParanoiax (6987)
• United States
23 May 07
Bah, gender roles suck..I kinda wish they'd go poof from society's 'list of important things' heh.
1 person likes this
@RosieS57 (889)
• United States
13 May 07
The restrictiveness of quite a few of the Wiccan groups has made me uncomfortable and this is another example.
I'm a Stega that doesn't participate in my hubby's Wiccan rituals.
We all have Yin and Yang energies, both, so it shouldn't matter.
Another Wiccan was told that since she lived near lakes and not salt water she couldn't have a dolphin as a totem/spirit animal. No matter how many times the dolphin came to her in her dreams. I think that's wrong because totems choose us and need to be respected. Besides, there are such things as freshwater dolphins; plus they don't use saltwater in the captive tanks of aquariums.
If it seems correct then it is because there's only one Rede and nothing in this thread brings any harm to anyone.
Besides, if we wanted strict rules and dogma we'd be Christian fundamentalists, right?
@lecanis (16647)
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee
13 May 07
*nods* There are many things the Wiccans I know have said that have made me kind of happy that I'm not Wiccan. However, over the years I have learned that every Wiccan had their own ideas, just like every person of any other religion, so I no longer just dismiss the whole religion.
I like your point at the end there. =p
1 person likes this
@kitchenwitchoftupper (2290)
• United States
14 May 07
SSleut, I would like to advise you to please ask your daughter to explain what she is believing. It will only make you closer to her. You don't say how old she is, but no matter what age, all daughters want to connect with their mothers; and this is an opportunity for you to gain that connection. It is kind of like reestablishing the umbilical cord again. As mothers we don't get the chance to do that too often in our childrens' lives. When we do, we must reach out and take it quickly. When you ask to learn what she is thinking, you must just listen and be non judging of her. Only give comments if she asks. Be very supportive. If it is something that you think may be harmful or you have never heard of, please come back to MyLot and post - I am sure that someone will be able to help you. I am off right now to ask you to be my friend and hope you will accept. ~Donna (just another mother)
1 person likes this
@Ravenladyj (22902)
• United States
13 May 07
"Do you believe that women can only invoke Goddesses and men Gods?"
- absolutely not! and I dont understand why ppl would think like that considering the whole "balance" thing is so in the forefront (though admittedly with Wicca I find that the true forefront is the Goddess aspects which just never made sense to me and was a turn off really)....We ALL have masculine AND feminine within ourselves so why SHOULDNT a woman invoke the Gods and visa versa with the men......
"Or that masculine and feminine energy involved in ritual has to come from someone of the appropriate gender?"
- I think ppl who have that outlook really are limiting themselves to be honest with you...IMO whn you think like that you arent acknowledging you and your abilities as a WHOLE being (does that make sense? im havin a rough morning :-( )
"Is it a fairly common Wiccan belief?"
- Seeing how i'm not Wiccan I really couldnt say if its commmon or not but i'm curious now, to find out really and to find out WHY if it IS a common belief..
great thread lecanis!
1 person likes this
@Ravenladyj (22902)
• United States
13 May 07
I just wnat to add too that unlike some if not many ppl I dont see the gods/goddess' as being seperate from me in the first place.....so when I invoke one, all I'm doing is reaching deep into myself and bringing out those aspects that reside in me
holy hell am I making ANY sense today AT ALL?? *blink blink*
1 person likes this
@lecanis (16647)
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee
13 May 07
Thanks for adding your perspective, Ravenladyj! I'm always happy to see you. =)
I agree that people with this outlook are limiting themselves quite a bit. I can't imagine what my spiritual life would be like if I believed things like that.
I often run into these kind of questions because so much of the local pagan community is Wiccan, and I'm not. So I really need to perhaps do more research on Wicca itself just to figure some of these things out. Not because I'm interested in being Wiccan, but because so many of the people I talk to, online and offline, identify that way.
Oh, about your ideas on Gods and Goddesses, I find them very interesting, and I think you're making a lot of sense. It's not exactly how I look at things, but I do really find it interesting!
@kitchenwitchoftupper (2290)
• United States
14 May 07
Lecanis, I am reading this and responding from my email. My first thought is what a bunch of judgmental people you have been around; and then I think - well there you go, Donna, judging the people Lecanis has been around! I am going to leave my email and go straight (for a lesbian that in itself is a strange statement) to MyLot so I can see what others have responded to this before I add my 2 cents. And, why isn't there a "cents" sign on the keyboard? ~Donna
1 person likes this
@kitchenwitchoftupper (2290)
• United States
14 May 07
Good Grief Lucy!
I don't know if I should have gone with what I was going to answer or if I am glad to have come here first. Your discussion has certainly roused some powerful responses.
As a Simple Kitchen Witch that practices only in my home by myself I have always felt very comfortable with All of the Elements by my side to aid me in my life and in my workings. It has never mattered to me if they were gendered or transgendered. It was something that I had never given any thought to. Until right this minute I have never though of myself as a "stupid" or "dumb" woman; but after reading some of the comments and realizing that I have no idea what in the heck I have just read (and that is after reading them 3 times "the power of 3 didn't work this time for me! LOL).
What you asked was a very simplistic question and I was going to give my usual style of simplistic answer. I hope that you have gotten the answer you needed from the others. I am just going to go to the nearest corner where I will be eating humble pie and trying to figure out if I can even still comprehend the English language.~Donna
1 person likes this
@chumchum214 (36)
• Philippines
13 May 07
I think it's a matter of personal belief. I used to believe those things too when I was last involved with wiccan groups.
@LadyDulce (830)
• United States
29 Jul 07
I think a lot of it depends on the particular coven or group. The ones who cling to the Old Ways, mixed a little with the ante-hippie era, tend to assign roles by gender mainly. Though the group you mentioned seemed pretty strict about it. I've never really seen it to that extent. We are all made from the same elements, though some make stronger connections with different aspects. I am inherently female, and I do have primarily feminine energies, though during my "dormant" periods of the month, my masculine energies tend to emerge. With women especially, we're so versatile (generally speaking); our feminine energies are strongest during ovulation and the period shortly before, while we return to a more neutral balance otherwise. It's all a dance, and one we need to respect and make adjustments for. I haven't seen a ritual meant for both genders that can't be done with only one, or adapted to become so.
Blessed Be
1 person likes this
@lecanis (16647)
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee
29 Jul 07
Thanks for sharing with me!
You brought up a good point about the menstrual cycle and its effect on our energies. I'll have to start paying more attention to that myself. Since my cycle is actually very erratic, I suppose I hadn't actually noticed the effect before, but I'm sure if I paid attention I would discover what you have. Thanks so much for that idea!
@HereLiesSlobe (71)
• Canada
20 Jul 07
Well, I've never really done any rituals myself (mostly due to lack of space and privacy). But in my opinion I think that I have a very masculine energy, and I've met guys with very feminine engergies. I suppose its just a personal thing. A lot of emphasis is put on gender roles these days and perhaps that gets to some people and put up barriers to them understanding things like that.
I don't think its a common Wiccan belief, but don't take my word on it because I don't know many other Wiccans.
1 person likes this
@lecanis (16647)
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee
20 Jul 07
I feel the same way about it being just a personal thing. I've met people all along the gender-energy spectrum myself.
I like what you said about how the emphasis on gender roles puts up barriers on our understanding. That's something I hadn't really factored in so much. I have surrounded myself so much with people who espouse a very non-gender-role ideal that sometimes I forget that the world most people live in isn't the same as the family/community I have created for myself. Thanks!
