I can't believe I'm gonna do this!
By gardengrrl
@gardengrrl (1445)
United States
June 4, 2007 11:51am CST
First of all, let me offer the highest of praise to emeraldisle, who provided a bit of information in a prochoice discussion that I had honestly never thought of. All these years of prochoice activism, and it never once occurred to me that Judeo-Christian tradition says that the soul doesn't enter the child until it is born! Thank you, emeraldisle!
I am not a Biblical scholar, but I don't think this is written there, its more like part of the folklore that arose around the practice of faith. I am curious about this, though, because it leads to a very obvious conclusion: God himself doesn't regard the unborn as worthy of a soul. SO, what in the hell are we getting all worked up about?
Following the same train of thought, God would certainly know how dangerous childbearing is, for both parties. God knows that, left to nature, half of human pregnancies don't result in a living child. God's already accepted that, so he doesn't waste a soul on something that may or may not be born. Heck, God made us that way, right? Apparently, it is by Divine design and intention that many, many pregnancies fail. One could coherently argue that, in a society with advanced medical technology, something has to take the place of natural termination, and we use another technology to do so. Not to would be to subvert God's obvious intention to the will of man.
SO, where does all this pro-life stuff come from anyway? I think it is, one, the most effective way old-fashioned, control freak men have found to control otherwise intelligent women, and, two, the internalized misogynism of many of those same women.
An hour ago, I was considering authoring a discussion calling for a one month moratorium on new abortion discussions, so I can't believe I'm about to start a new one!
A reminder to all parties, any name-calling or other excessive rudeness will get a negative or a report, depending on how bad the offense is. If you do so and get my discussion deleted, I will write a scurrilous limerick about you and post it somewhere else on this site!
Peace!
6 people like this
11 responses
@maildumpster (3815)
• United States
4 Jun 07
You said it yourself that it is tradition. I have never come across anything biblically to confirm that a child doesn't get a soul till birth.
God knows us before we are born here's an example from the bible - Jeremiah 1:5(NIV)
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew [a] you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
If God knows us before he even makes us in the womb why would he wait until birth to give us our soul?
He knows the very number of hairs on our heads -
Luke 12:6-8 (American Standard Version)
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pence? and not one of them is forgotten in the sight of God.
7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
If we are worth that much to him why would he wait to give us our soul?
Sorry I don't buy it (nothing against you or your beliefs just my opinion). I think this is something that people use to make themselves feel better about babies dying before birth. Either through natural means or human intervention.
4 people like this
@maildumpster (3815)
• United States
4 Jun 07
Ah yes Jeremiah. I used it only to illustrate that God knows us. He is all knowing so if he knew Jeremiah why wouldn't he know any of us?
As far as birth/mortality. I am not one to speak for God but my theories are either he is sparing us from a bad situation (in the event of miscarriage) or heck maybe it is just plain old population control. Who knows; as I said I can't answer for God.
2 people like this
@gardengrrl (1445)
• United States
4 Jun 07
lol... my Sunday school teacher used to get REALLY mad when I would say, just because God can know us, doesn't mean he wants to!
Hmmm... you may be on to something here, maybe we can revive the zero population growth movement by pointing out that there's a Reason for those mortality rates!
OK, maybe not... ;)
2 people like this
@gardengrrl (1445)
• United States
4 Jun 07
Hi, maildumpster, good to hear from you! I don't know where the notion about souls at birth comes from, I was hoping people with more learning on the matter would weigh in.
I've always thought that Jeremiah 1:5 is one of the most misinterpreted verses in the whole Bible. First Jeremiah is about God choosing him as prophet. I never saw anything in it that made me think he was referring to all humanity, only to those special ones chosen to serve divine purpose. I used to get in lots of trouble in Bible school for that one, what can I say, I'm a hardhead!
What do you think about the high mortality associated with human pregnancy? If it's by divine design, what purpose does it serve? I never really thought about it in this way, haven't quite gotten it settled in my brain yet.
2 people like this
@GuateMom (1411)
• Canada
4 Jun 07
I´m curious as to whether or not you have children. I have two and although I have no idea if they had souls or not before they were born, let me tell you that they had their personalities! My firstborn was angry right from the start. The first time he started to kick, he did it hard and he constantly had flurries of kicking and punching if I got into a position he didn´t like or his papa put a hand on my belly. He is still like that! Also, he managed to get his growing head stuck under my ribs for three weeks and the midwife had to pry him out before he did permanent damage! Now that he is an active toddler, he is constantly managing to get stuck in things.
It is a bit early to tell with my second son, but he was far calmer in the womb and seems to be in the outside world as well. As long as he is fed and held, he is quite content with life. He sleeps more and is far less active than my firstborn.
My point is this, I could not abort because I know that my children were themselves before they passed through the birth canal. I do understand why women would choose to abort though, and although it makes me a little sad, I wouldn´t ever tell someone that they don´t have the right to choose.
3 people like this
@gardengrrl (1445)
• United States
4 Jun 07
I don't, but many women have told me the same as you, that they could "feel" their children's personality kick in during pregnancy (sometimes quite literally!)
I was just struck by the insight I read in another discussion and wanted to put it out there for folks to kick around.
Thanks for stopping by!
2 people like this
@kcbabez14 (967)
• United States
4 Jun 07
I understand where your coming from. because my first was the opposite of your second and as the looks of it my second is like your first. I think it's just what belief that you have in God. Becuase my belief is that God is at hand for the so many missed pregnancies. Because to me it's either God is saying it's time for you to have a child or he's saying that it's not time!
3 people like this
@professorxang (201)
• United States
5 Jun 07
i not understand why people say God is in control however he gave everyone free will. he let you turn to him or away from him on your own. he let you make decision that can be very bad and let people do bad thing to each other so why is he now in charge of telling you when it is time to procreate? that make no sense and contradiction. i believe in God and as i believe in God to allow people their choices and whether they were good or bad choice you find out in the end when you face him.
4 people like this
@whiteheather39 (24403)
• United States
4 Jun 07
You will not get anything but thanks from me. I am so happy to see this information in print as it is always what I have been led to believe. I think you may have guessed I am not prolife. Although I do not believe in abortions only for convenience sake
3 people like this
@gardengrrl (1445)
• United States
8 Jun 07
You're welcome, although it was emeraldisle who gave the initial inspiration. I was curious to find out more about this issue. You're definitely right, abortion isn't birth control!
1 person likes this
@samtaylorskykierajen (7977)
• Canada
5 Jun 07
God is the one who grants us the right to have the child , without him there would be no child . He knows what is going to happen before we do .
I never knew there was no soul in our baby's and am very upset to hear about his . I have suffered four miscarriages and was always told that my children were waiting for me in Heaven and that someday I would hold them and get to meet them . I am really saddened and pray this is not true because they were my children even though they never had the chance to live .
2 people like this
@maildumpster (3815)
• United States
6 Jun 07
Sam do not worry your babies are waiting for you in heaven. I don't believe that a babies soul doesn't enter till birth. Why would God do that? Those babies have souls and they are there with God. Don't worry.
2 people like this
@stacyv81 (5903)
• United States
8 Jun 07
I think that every human life has a soul, that is given when conceived. Your babies are waiting to yell, "mommy!" and give you big hugs and lots of kisses when you get to Heaven. Dont you worry! They are with God. Hope that mad you feel a little better!
@gardengrrl (1445)
• United States
5 Jun 07
Just because your babies might not have made it into the world, it doesn't mean that they won't be waiting for you, it shouldn't, that would be too cruel for a loving god to do. If they didn't get a soul, then they are among the littlest angels, and will be there for you when the time comes. Please don't be sad or upset, I don't know that anything I put in the discussion is a fact, just questions to get others thinking about this with me.
Sorry to make you upset, please don't cry, your little angels are surely fine.
1 person likes this
@stacyv81 (5903)
• United States
8 Jun 07
um...I have never heard that the soul doesnt enter until born. I am a woman and I have 2 kids, they have personalities way before they are born. Their kicks and their movements and such. In that ezperience I have learned that there are things they dont like you to do and things they like even when they are inside. I saw my son and daughter do things and act a certain way after they were born that reminded me of when they were still in my womb. So, I cant say I agree with you.
2 people like this
@devilsangel (1817)
• United States
5 Jun 07
Well I guess I'm gonna be the odd person out for this one. See although I don't agree that a baby isn't alive the moment it is concieved I do understand the need for abortion. I don't know if I personally could ever have one because under normal conditions I would never be able to bring myself to do something like that. I hate the fact that people use abortions as a form of birth control because they can't keep their legs closed. I can sympathize with those that use it for other reasons though. Like the rape victims or the mothers who are told that their child will be born with sever birth defects and have no real quality of life. Outside of those reasons yes it bugs me when people have abortions. To me children are a precious gift. I however, understand that a woman should have the right to say what happens to her body without the world dictating to her what she can and can't do. No woman should be forced to have a child she doesn't want and so I accept the need for abortions. I don't believe in the Judeo-Christian beliefs so I guess that might have something to do with why I think everything has an energy or spirit. Do I think abortion is murder, no. Why, because by law a baby is not considered alive until it is born. So you can't kill or muder something that was never alive. I don't have to agree with that theory just respect that it is law so by definition abortion is not murder.
2 people like this
@maevic (819)
• Bahrain
5 Jun 07
Sorry but I don't agree with your point. babies that are inside the wombs are already alive. Souls is the body itself, so if it is already forming it's body it already have a soul. I cannot remember the verse but there's a law in the Bible that if there's a man fighting and during their fights a pregnant woman is endured and lost the baby because of that, it is fair that the people who cause it should die, A life for a life it says. If God doesnt give importance to an unborn child, why he would make such a law. I wil check the Bible text for this when I get a chance later.
@maevic (819)
• Bahrain
5 Jun 07
Missed preganancies are caused by human imperfection. Since imperfection caused by our first parents, adam and eve, that's why we are dying. We get defects on our physical body because of imperfection but God created us as a perfect being.
In our modern days, there;s a lot of problems or diseases or complications during pregnancies. Women who took pills, who have heart problems, diabetes, UTI, and other infections which makes the pregnancy complicated but GOD doesn't have to do with that. It is the people's decisions how they want to live their life. God loves us so much starting from the day when God created us. Unborn or born.
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
5 Jun 07
So there is no difference between dying and having your life taken. Ok, I understand now.
1 person likes this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
5 Jun 07
Btw, interesting little irony here.
The Suffragettes and other early feminists in the US were against abortion. They said that it was the ultimate tactic by control freak men over women.
1 person likes this
@aries_0325 (3060)
• Philippines
12 Jan 08
In my religion, they teach us about the sanctity of soul in the unborn baby. The most important is there is a life over there. The unborn baby is having a life. Abortion is an absolutely wrong and it is a crime of murder. And absolutely I am not favor for this. And I think the fetus have life and like us she/he have a right to see this wonderful world.
@BethTN81 (564)
• United States
5 Jun 07
OK, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." Jer 1:5.
You people can interpret what the scripture means on your own. In my opinion, God is saying that the unborn does have a soul.
Keep in mind EVERYONE interprets the bible in different ways, and this is my interpretation.
As far as "Where does all this pro-life stuff come from"? It comes from an opinion. Just like yours! My opinion is not formed by some control-freak man either.
I get a kick out of people who can't seem to grasp the concept that just b/c someone may disagree with you doesn't mean they can't think on their own.
1 person likes this
@gardengrrl (1445)
• United States
13 Jun 07
Now, I would have named Susan Smith and that other lost soul as the number one reasons why abortion should be legal and unstigmatized.
You are, quite naturally, free to use the profoundly aberrant as your examples of womanhood, but it only renders your points less credible, as does your bashing of people who don't agree with you. I'm not sure why you characterized me as old and bitter, since you don't know anymore about me than I about you. Funny thing about the Bible thumpers, you always have to get nasty when you don't have a reasoned answer for someone else's argument. I personally don't give a damn where you got your opinion, I was talking about the movement. it may be news to you, but there's a whole, wide world outside of your head. If you don't like my opinions, make an argument, not a weak little attempt at sarcasm. (No, your swearing you know lots of people who think like you doesn't count.) Otherwise, have a nice day! :)
1 person likes this
@BethTN81 (564)
• United States
18 Jun 07
I do not recall bashing anyone that does not agree with me. As a matter of fact, I could care less about your opinion or anyone elses, and you are free to express yours just as well as I can express mine.
As for the "bible thumper" comment. That's hilarious! I livr in the bible belt and I can introduce you to a few bible thumpers, but I am clearly NOT one. Just b/c I quote one scripture that makes a person a "bible thumper"? If I quoted a line from the KORAN would that make me Muslim who distorts their religon like some we have heard about?
Before you start labeling people you need to get to know them better.
I am very aware of "the movement". I am also aware of what goes on outside my head. I just had no idea you knew me SO well. I mean, You say I bash people who do not agree with me. I am a bible thumper and so on...
I get a kick out of people that like to use arrogance to put others down when they really can't seem to understand some people's views. If it is a disagreeing opinion they automatically look at it as BASHING. I haven't bashed YOU my dear. As a matter of fact, I respect your views although I may not agree with them.
The way I look at it, and it may sound heartless to some, but you can abort however many kids you want. I will not be the one to pay the consequences for it if any. All I would do is try to understand why you or another woman made that decision. I would try to give you other options rather than abortion, and yes, try to befriend them. IF abortion is a "sin" why shoulf I be held accountable for YOUR actions or someone elses. I mean I have commited enough sins of my own that I need to worry about.
Oh and YES! I will have a nice day!
