Atheists welcome!
By missak
@missak (3311)
Spain
June 26, 2007 10:14am CST
I hope this time more of you feel comfortable in my discussion. This is a game: you post your arguments against metaphysics, then I try to refutate them. Also I post my arguments in favour to metaphysics, then you try to refutate them.
In my older discussion about this topic I have come to some conclusions I'll try to put here in short:
-I won't use "The Bible says so" argument, this is a void argument.
-Some atheists don't reject metaphysics or spirituality, only reject the idea of an omnipotent god. I don't think this is really atheistic and I don't have good arguments for them, but I'll enjoy to learn from their worlview anyways.
-There is a conceptual relation between atheism and determinism, at least for most of atheists I have talked to. If you are one of thoose, the discussion will become argumentations-refutations of freedom, which is also interesting.
-I define nature or reality as composed of both physics and metaphysics. Some have told me this is an atheistic or materialistic idea, but I don't find this since metaphysics are not material. So for me there is no "spuernatural" but something like supermaterial or out of physical rules (i.e. ruled by god or by ourselves). This is a point to discuss about also.
-There is some relation between your worldview and your definition of ego/self. This is for me related to the soul/spirit so it is also a good poit to discuss about.
So it your turn! Happy debat =)
6 people like this
10 responses
@fightingistheonlyway (2658)
• Canada
27 Jun 07
okay, you told me to come here, you said tanya is the best but i think that any true atheist would be a good debater. anyway, we last ended with me conceding that free will is existent.
3 people like this
@fightingistheonlyway (2658)
• Canada
27 Jun 07
hmm, your conclusion to this is that metaphysics is controlled by the will of a person.
im not 100% sure, but okay, i will agree to this.
go ahead..
2 people like this
@missak (3311)
• Spain
27 Jun 07
A good debater tries to uderstand the other debater before refutating what he says. You are not trying to understand me althought I am trying to understand you... So be a good atheist and make an efort in my debat.
Ok, physics are ruled by physical rules.
There are some things that are not ruled by physical rules: things that are ruled by someone's (you, me or whoever) decision (free will).
SO thoose things are over physical rules. They are metaphysical.
If you catch this, we are approaching a little.
1 person likes this
@missak (3311)
• Spain
27 Jun 07
lol... if you agree then you are already converted!
Ok, I think you will change your mind now so I will continue as if you disagreed...
What we have to point now is what exactly is the "someone" that makes decision, the author of free will.
If it is you, it must be your ego. How do you define ego?
@Kythe42 (1412)
• United States
26 Jun 07
" -Some atheists don't reject metaphysics or spirituality, only reject the idea of an omnipotent god. I don't think this is really atheistic and I don't have good arguments for them, but I'll enjoy to learn from their worlview anyways."
Well from the last post I made in your other atheist topic I guess you already know that I fit into this group. I guess maybe I'm not completely atheistic. I think I'm a lot of different things rolled into one. Without getting too complicated, I'd probably describe myself as half atheist and half eclectic witch. The main reason that I don't completely fit in with the whole witch/wiccan/pagan groups is because most of them really do believe in gods and goddesses. I used to be part of a coven and there were a bunch of rituals that I participated in that invoked various gods and goddesses and I felt so silly doing it because I really don't believe in those beings. All I wanted was to do the meditation and magick rituals without bringing gods and goddesses into it. The difference in beliefs wasn't the reason I left the coven though. That's a completely different story.
3 people like this
@Kythe42 (1412)
• United States
27 Jun 07
Well I have never used magick for profit. Maybe I should though, it might help me find a job. LOL
I've done a lot of self healing(spiritual and physical) and there are times I've done healing on others that are close to me. It's a lot easier to do healing on someone that you have a connection with. It's easiest for me with my S/O. He'll start feeling better within a few minutes of me starting the healing.
2 people like this
@missak (3311)
• Spain
27 Jun 07
This is very interesting. What is S/O? (Sorry, maybe I should know...).
I have another silly question, I hope you don't mind... where does the energy or power you use in magik comes from?
By the way, good luck for you to get that job! (I would say "aché" instead of "lcuk", but it is long to explain)
1 person likes this
@meme0907 (3481)
• United States
26 Jun 07
Hey M,
Well first I had to look up Metaphysics & this is basically what I came up w/ belief in luck would you say that is an accurate description?
As for my belief in Christianity I will say this-there is no creation without a creator(ie:a wooden table w/o a woodsmith,a book w/o an author)
Hope that helps someone
+'s 2 U
:D
@missak (3311)
• Spain
26 Jun 07
Wel, you are right about metaphysics are similar to luck but I don't think it is exactly the same. I prefer the idea of Karma, or the Ashe/Osogbo (similar to good/bad karma, luck or not luck).
About christianity, I think its philosophy is more interesting when it is about the endings (resurrection, trascendence, revelations, justice, balance...) than when talking about the begining (creation).
I respect the idea of Adan and Eve but I only can accept it with a metaphoric view, and the result is a bit childish (we all know about good and bad, but the world is more complicated than that).
+'s 2U ALSO!!
=D
3 people like this
@meme0907 (3481)
• United States
26 Jun 07
I thought you didn't want us to get into Bible specifics so I didn't go there,I was putting it as simply as possible-you know I don't follow the rapture theory it's not Biblical nor do I celebrate easter as a religious holiday b/c it's not Biblical either as for the whole adam & eve thing I don't believe in an apple like the stories we get told as children that's not what the Bible means but as I've stated before don't listen to any man about the Bible investigate it for yourself.
++
:)
2 people like this
@missak (3311)
• Spain
26 Jun 07
You are right, I didn't want to get into Bible specifics, but it is fine. And yes, I have investigated and there are several things to discuss about, like the Apocryphus Gospels... But I have several other discussions for that :)
My conclusion would be that we all find our personal interpretation...
++2U
:)
1 person likes this
@egfitz62150 (645)
• United States
26 Jun 07
Oh, dear! I'd love to debate you, but my beliefs include so many different views that I agree with almost everything!! Well, not murder and the suppression of women, of course! I'm not sure I believe in Atheists, though. Everybody worships SOMETHING, although they may not call it God, they revere it as greater than themselves all the same. It may be science, or money, or power -- they bow to it all the same! Oh, maybe there IS a debate here! LOL!!
@missak (3311)
• Spain
26 Jun 07
You are my kind of people lol... I am upset, I thought I was of a kind... kidding. I believe in everything that is for good also, and I try to learn from atheists too.
I have used your argument about the atheitic "god" also, but I have not got a good answer yet... So I think you are right, everybody worships something somehow, and I'll try to find here what does each one worship to see if I should add it to my beliefs.
1 person likes this
@bravenewworld (746)
• United States
26 Jun 07
What was God doing in the many millenia prior to man's appearance on earth? Seems he gave the dinosaurs a good stretch of time to wise up before smiting them.
1 person likes this
@missak (3311)
• Spain
26 Jun 07
Ok, I am not asking you to believe in miths (I do), but I want you to think on the concepts from this miths and find your own answers. Kali is the Godess of creation and destruction, as far as I know, so the philosophical meaning is that for having dinosoaurs and humans you have to smit them sometimes lol.
1 person likes this
@bravenewworld (746)
• United States
26 Jun 07
Just looked it up. It's a myth, right? And like all myths, it springs from the imagination of man (or woman). Many philosophies have been engendered by man's struggle to explain our existence. Who's to say which is valid. Maybe all, maybe none. I certainly don't have any answers.
1 person likes this
@bravenewworld (746)
• United States
26 Jun 07
What was God doing in the many millenia prior to man's appearance one earth? I will, he say gave the dinosaurs a good stretch of time to wise up before smiting them.
1 person likes this
@missak (3311)
• Spain
26 Jun 07
You have several mistakes in your statement, it seems it is directly to christian-like religions. I have some discussions related to christianism but I wnat this one to be general, only about philosophical concepts that could fit in any religion.
Why do you talk about god as "he"? God should be over human being so god can't be a "he".
I see god as an energy, not a physical energy but a metaphysical one...
Why you put such enfasis in "man's appearance"? Human being, in my opinion, shouldn't be more important for God than dinosaurs, ants or rocks, or even time, space and void.
If this is not enough, please reconstruct your statement in a more general manner (find the concepts behind it that are important for you) so that I can respond more accurately.
1 person likes this
@bravenewworld (746)
• United States
26 Jun 07
Sure, I can't refute the existence of an energy or an pantheistic entity. I just don't believe this is a moralistic entity, or one particularly benign. In fact, if it exists, I imagine it as quite indifferent to what occurs on earth.
I must have misunderstood the discussion. Your position doesn't seem that different to mine. Doe's this make me agnostic?
2 people like this
@bravenewworld (746)
• United States
26 Jun 07
Well, there are scientific reasons for a lot of things, including why a dinosaur would evolve into a bird and not a fish. But I concede, I believe there is a mystical, spiritual aspect to life. By definition, it cannot be explained or quantified.
2 people like this
@Tanya8 (1733)
• Canada
5 Jul 07
Hi Missak, I keep meaning to get to this discussion. I got sidetracked with another long one, and used up the time I allotted to myself for tonight. I have so much going on right now in the real world, that it's going to take a while for me to find time to get back here.
In the meantime I hope things are going well for you.
Tanya
1 person likes this
@ZenDove (698)
• United States
27 Jun 07
To me, metaphysics is that point in reality where the universe connects with the human spirit. Where the infinite meets the finite. In other words, the human mind is finite. When it seeks to grasp and interpret the finite physical universe, we call it science or physics. When the human SPIRIT seeks to understand, contain and reflect the infinite universe, that is going beyond physical science or into the realm of meta-(meaning "above") physics.
I do not believe in deities or dogmas. I do believe in the science and meta-science of energy. I believe that the attainment of metaphysical understanding - that energy beyond the physical, 3 dimensional world - is the equivalent to physical evolution. We can grow and evolve, as beings physical, emotional, and spiritual in expression.
I believe that life is a natural phenomenon of energy, requiring no "creator", such as that represented in myth and religion. Energy expands and contracts and in this process is affected by itself, as it interacts WITH itself. We, in the 3rd dimension of expression, call this interaction "conscious life".
So, actually, I am not following the rules of discussion in that I have no points to refute metaphysics.:-) It's just that in reading the other responses to this discussion, I wanted to jump in and add my humble viewpoint. Thanks!
@missak (3311)
• Spain
27 Jun 07
I love your viewpoint, thank you very much. I love your definition of metaphysics.
And yes, I think you fit in the second point of my discussion, as you accept metaphysics and spirituality but you don't accept/believe in God. I guess your view is similar to Kythe42's (post 10).
If you don't mind I will ask you also a few questions. Here is the first one:
I find my "god" not a creator, but the creation itself. The "energy" that push everything to evolution again and again. So my idea is similar to yours, what do you think about it?
1 person likes this
@ZenDove (698)
• United States
27 Jun 07
Okay, when you say that your god is creation itself as opposed to a creator, I assume that means you are referring to an "ultimate" energy instead of a persona. Is that on the mark? That's cool. I just have a difficult time thinking of a "highest" or ultimate energy. It implies that there is a final peak, a highest possible evolution for energy. To my understanding, energy is infinite. It is a continuum. It is high at the exact moment that it is low. It is, at the exact same moment that it is not. Your personal energy is finite - because you had a first breath, you will have a last. The universe's energy is infinite - there is no beginning, there is no end. "Creation" implies that there was a moment when energy was only "not being". Energy is, all the while it is not. We will return to the void from which we sprung, only to realize that we were never apart from it. There is no singular point of creation because we were never only not. Is that too mystical sounding?
1 person likes this
@missak (3311)
• Spain
27 Jun 07
It is not "too" mistical sounding, I like it. I think understand what you say and I also think of the "continuum". I don't understand creation as something that already happened and is over, but something that is happening constantly, like in evolution. What my idea of "god" does is to generate/inspire the constant change of things. It is not that things didn't exist before, it is that they existed in another form. Like a man before was a child, for me that "ultimate energy" causes this kind of changes, that in a higher level can be translated in constant creations/destructions in the universe. So maybe I should say rather "creativity" than creation. It is also a mistical idea, and not too diferent if I am understanding you well.
1 person likes this
@Aphroditei_5279 (2465)
• Philippines
27 Jun 07
HI Missak! I'm sorry if I'm not around much. Quite busy with my studies these days. I wasn't able too to cope up with your discussions. But I would love to know if being an atheist means you don't believe in anything or do believe in something aside from a God or other Gods? I have a friend you said he is an atheist but I feel shy to ask him about it. But I like your discussion. I'm a Christian, but I do more believe in the freedom of spirit and the good of every human being. Confusing ha....or not so...Thanks Missak...I'm looking forward to your response...(^^,)
1 person likes this
@missak (3311)
• Spain
27 Jun 07
Hi Aphrodite! I also believe in the freedom of spirit and I accept different vorldviews and beliefs, so surely my mind is even more confusing =)
Atheists by definition don't believe in anything, but I have found many people here that claim to be atheists and actually accept different kinds of spirituality or even sometimes some kind of god... I lovve to discuss about all that!
@TheRepublicMenu (290)
• United States
5 Jul 07
I was at one point an atheist. I then thought to myself...
"this makes no sense because I do not know for sure what is out there or who/what is responsbible..."
That is when I became agnostic. I really do not know for sure. However, I get these people who are Christians and Muslims who absolutely KNOW that GOD/ALLAH exist. It is first proven in the books The Bible and the Koran. Then second by examples of how perfectly sound nature is.
