can a religious person be logical?
@fightingistheonlyway (2658)
Canada
August 8, 2007 4:49pm CST
i am not talking about theists, or pantheists or any kind of belief like that, i am talking about a religion, "a framework of beliefs and rituals that are set around the supernatural"..
i dont think so..
lets think..
logic says evolution, [mainstream] religion says adam and god.
logic says evil comes out of psychology, [mainstream] religion says it came out of the fruit/Pandora's box
logic says omnipotence and free will cannot co-exist, religion says otherwise.
and i can keep going on and on..
so, can a religious person be logical [on matters of religion]? nope.
and i find that weird because religious people are logical in every other aspect of life.. just not that one area..
6 people like this
9 responses
@sunshinecup (7871)
•
8 Aug 07
Is it logical to believe we came from apes, while still looking for that missing link?
Is it logical to say the universe began with a big bang, yet with no source to cause that bang?
You as an Atheist, do you have the answers we don’t have? You have the truth of how we came to be or do you have theories? Do you have ANY absolute truths at all or do you just have a ton of ideas? Heck, looking at it like that, makes you wonder if someone without religious beliefs can be logical as well.
Anyway to give a clear answer to your question, yes I do think we can be logical and have religion just as much as those without can be.
2 people like this
@fightingistheonlyway (2658)
• Canada
9 Aug 07
its logical to say we do not know.
its logical to criticize the best theories, but these theories have not been bettered
i never thought you rejected the theory of evolution sunshine, you really think adam and eve story is more logical than the heretical theory of the development of life on earth over millions of years by means spontaneous genetic mutation?
roy Zimmerman (a jew) puts it in a good perspective however..
1 person likes this
@Chiang_Mai_boy (3882)
• Thailand
9 Aug 07
sunshinecup I am not an Atheist so I don't know if I am qualified to answer your question but I would like to make one comment. I do not know of anyone who has done the necessary research who is still looking foe the "missing link" or believes that we came from apes. With the advent of monocular biology the "missing link" question became obsolete. We now have definitive evidence that our genome diverged from the ape 4.5 million years ago. There is no reason that a person can not be religious and still be logical. You do have to keep yourself knowledgeable as to recent developments in physical science and realize that a rational view of the world must encompass both religion and science.
2 people like this
@Rollo1 (16679)
• Boston, Massachusetts
9 Aug 07
If I might touch on just one point, not to exclude the others, but rather as a place to start, I would ask why you believe that omnipotence and free will cannot co-exist? I don't know why God's omnipotence would in any way negate my free will. An omnipotent being can do anything, but may choose not to do something. The ability to do does not equal the absolute duty to do. A mother may be able to stop a small child from taking its first tentative steps, knowing the child is not steady enough and will take a few falls, but despite her wish to protect that child, she also realizes that trial and error is how children master such skills. Sometimes it is important to withhold a hand. Making decisions and mistakes are how we learn to make better decisions.
@fightingistheonlyway (2658)
• Canada
9 Aug 07
to create will, one must exist.
god has always existed.
humans have a beginning.
god knows our will before we existed.
the only way god knows our will before we existed is if he created "our will".
therefore, human will is not the will of humans, rather, the will of god... if the omnipotent god existed ofcourse.
dont give me any pointless mother son or renting a car examples because i have heard them all lol.. disprove this, and you will "win" the debate..
2 people like this
@fightingistheonlyway (2658)
• Canada
9 Aug 07
also, another point to add to that.. when you say that god is not in this universe, your basically also saying that god is non-existent.
2 people like this
@Rollo1 (16679)
• Boston, Massachusetts
9 Aug 07
I must admit to being intrigued as to what the car rental argument is, I have never heard it.
I think that the answer lies in the basic difference between what we perceive as past or future, humans live on a linear time line and so for us everything progresses logically from point A to point B and although we make lots of predictions about where point C might be, we can't know until we get there.
God, as He defines Himself (and this is the only way I can express this, as using any other definition would be tainted by opinion) is not subject to time. God exists outside of time. Time is a function of the physical universe. If you believe in God as Supreme Creator, then He created the Universe, He is not of the universe.
God, being outside of time, may then see all time as present. Now as for free will, God created beings with the capacity for exercising same. In our lives there are many different paths we can choose, going from point A and not knowing the end of the paths that we choose. God, who is not subject to the "wait and see" method of linear time, does see the ends of all paths, the ones chosen and the ones not chosen. He does not choose the path simply because He knows where it leads to. We freely choose the paths we travel in life.
Stephen Hawking (who is an atheist) has come quite close to expressing this in his theories on time as a loop and quantum physics. I am sure he is not at all interested in discovering how God knows the future without having dictated it, he is merely pursuing science. But I find it interesting to ponder.
2 people like this
@sarahruthbeth22 (43143)
• United States
9 Aug 07
I believe that an religious person can be logical but not as logical as an atheist is naturally. I am a religious person who is logical.But I don't think you will find me that way because I mix Adam and Eve ans evolution. I love the story of Pandora's box, but I do except psychology.And not only can a person needs free will be be religious.
@sarahruthbeth22 (43143)
• United States
10 Aug 07
I like what T-Rex wrote.I agree with the clash between "a logical explanations and looking at things in a religious way."I never thought of religion as logical. Maybe that's what I like about it. And what could drive you up a wall.
@fightingistheonlyway (2658)
• Canada
10 Aug 07
i think T-Rex made a good argument
2 people like this
@CoffeeAnyone (3210)
• Canada
9 Aug 07
If a religious person can be logical in every other aspect of life then it would make perfect sense to me that they would be consistent in their life with their religion as well.
1 person likes this
@fightingistheonlyway (2658)
• Canada
9 Aug 07
very good response, they should be logical in every aspect.. but on faith they are not.. this is where neurology helps.
1 person likes this
@vijigopi (991)
• United States
9 Aug 07
I definitely think religion and logic can go hand in hand. Until one point. After that intuition takes over. There is a point after which intellect will not be able to understand further. Because that which you are trying to understand transcends the intellect. Infact it is the very source of the intellect and you cannot understand if you try to make God as an OBJECT of understanding. In other words, so long as you consider God as a Being external to you, you can never reach Him or It. If we search for something that is not an object but is Itself the subject, how would you go about it? any idea? I guess everybody would be searching for an answer outside objectively, and it is definite that you will not get it.
I would like to suggest that if you don't approve of the idea of mainstream religions, you could delve into those that sound more logical and more philosophical and try your luck there.
@fightingistheonlyway (2658)
• Canada
10 Aug 07
then, basically, they cannot go together.
1 person likes this
@mrgwashere (4)
• United States
9 Aug 07
Hmmmmm... that's still a tad vague. In order to qualify as "religious" by your question's text... does this mean a card-carrying, dues paying, mass attending, yarmulke-wearing religious person? Because there are lots of very religious people who are as committed to their beliefs as as any 7th Day Adventist but do not shroud themselves in ritual nor affiliate themselves with any particular church, organization or doctrine... not that attending ritual would make one less capable of "logic".
The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith as well as group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.
When considering religion and science, I read somewhere that for some, religious knowledge gained from religious leaders, sacred texts/scriptures and personal revelation is deemed unlimited in scope and suitable to answer all questions. Then there are those for whom religious knowledge plays a more restrictive role. As more of a complement to knowledge gained through physical observation.
Some great religious thinkers were: Copernicus, Roger Bacon (English philosopher who joined the Franciscan order in 1240), Nicholas of Cusa (a Catholic cardinal who made contributions to the field of mathematics and the concept of relative motion), Galileo, Rene Descartes,Isaac Newton and many, many more.
Einstien believed in God, though from a more Spinozan perspective.
And when asked whether or not he believed in "God", Carl Sagan responded, "That depends of what one means by the word "God".
My sister-in-law never misses mass but is an accomplished geological research scientist.
So yeah...absolutely... religious people can think and behave logically. It's zealots and fanatics that should concern us. The kind of fanaticism that would use the very methods their doctrine preaches against to neurotically protect their beliefs, force them upon others and even use a twisted version of their own doctrine to rationalize the abuse of another's rights and freedoms.
As for me... I am an atheist. I'm inclined to believe that man created God in his own image. However, I respect the spiritual beliefs of others. I have even envied them their faith and the peace that it appears to bring those who have a healthy belief is something spiritual and greater than themselves. I would never presume that a religious person is incapable of logic. To do so I would have to be intellectually narrow and as foolishly intolerant as any fanatic... and that's a club I refuse to join.
1 person likes this
@fightingistheonlyway (2658)
• Canada
10 Aug 07
yes very good answer.
i never meant to say that religious people are not capable of logic, i just meant to say that religion itself is not logical.
i just find it funny that religious people, like all people, would require proof for anything else except when it comes down to [religious] faith.
for if you go and tell a religious person that their spouse is cheating on them, they would require proof, like anyone else, but if you tell them that jesus is the son of god.. they just accept it?
that is the basis of why i think you cannot be logical on matters of religion.
1 person likes this
@fightingistheonlyway (2658)
• Canada
13 Aug 07
whether emotion is chemical is up for debate..
i dont think that faith is a personal issue at all.. the moment the mother teaches her faith to her son, the moment the surgeon puts down his tools and says "its in gods hands now"... the moment a guy blows himself up in an American embassy.
those debates will always be around.. but the debate on religion has an end.
and when was the last time anyone cared about hurting peoples feelings during a debate? lol
1 person likes this
@mrgwashere (4)
• United States
12 Aug 07
I hear you [so to speak;)]. However, I believe the first mistake is to attempt to find a correlation between two ideologies where none can possibly exist. You can no more use logic to explain "faith" than you can use it to explain "love", "happiness" or "passion (emotional not chemical)". It really is comparing apples and oranges. Logic and religious faith are mutually exclusive concepts. Though... early in man's history, religious faith provided logical explanations for issues in an age where there was little or no science.
Also, if you're not very careful, you might offend where you intend no offense. Believers rarely appreciate having their faith dissected. Doesn't matter why. It's a very personal issue for most and can rarely be debated in good taste.
For friendly, stimulating intellectual conversation... better to kick around solipsism, or "how do you know you exist" or phenominism. Yeah... it often ends up sounding sophomoric... especially when some college kid responds and wants to prove to you that they've read Nietzsche and David Hume... but who cares. It's amusing and nobody really gets annoyed.
@flowerchilde (12529)
• United States
9 Aug 07
...when man and angel was endowed with thinking ability.. a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities 'came to be' - a pandora's box!:)
- After 2000 years (and 2000 years of being handed down through human hands) yes, the message of christianity has lost some of it's original kick/glory. AnD, it has (surely?) picked up some baggage along the way. The only way to judge what chrsitianity is, is to read (a modern language version) of the new testament.
- Omnipotence and free will can co-exist for awhile. Until one (utterly) crashes. And the lesson of it, is what is being etched on every heart.
- If christians seem logical to you in all other matters (usually:) is it not possible, you simply do not understand, or see, the logic of the matter they seem, to you, to be illogical about..?