The Early Effects of The Smoking Ban in English Pubs...
By Darkwing
@Darkwing (21583)
August 18, 2007 11:32am CST
... is phenomenol. Only six weeks into the ban, my local pub is suffering... badly, and as the only place left in the village where we can socialise with other villagers and friends, this upsets me, greatly. If we lose the pub, we lose most of the communication we have, short of honing in on each others' homes, which is not really viable.
Concentrating initially on my local, trade dropped off in both drink sales and restaurant bookings... to the extent that the landlords had to make a U-turn. Restaurant food has been discontinued and the restaurant is now just an eating part of the pub. Bar meals are still available, but they can be eaten either in the pub itself or the restaurant.
Why this action? Mainly because they had to cut back on restaurant staff, laundering of table linen, cost of candles etc. Now, tragically, the tables are bare, so to speak. Where are the non-smokers now, then? Are they supporting the places which have been cleansed of smoke for them? Are they heck. The pub is still supported by smokers who have to take discomfort in smoking outside in the cold! Now, the people in the vacinity of the pub are complaining about the noise outside, made by smokers, and the buckets put out in which to extinguish cigarettes.
The other thing they've been compelled to do is to reinstate a pool table, to try and glean some extra revenue, to compensate for loss of sales. Ok... perhaps it wasn't good to remove it in the first place, but this table is now busy all night long, so a point has been proven.
So where will it all end? Will our pubs become glorified youth clubs, with a few oldies joining in? Will we lose the social aspect of our pub? You know, many non-smokers have intimated that they don't like to visit the pubs now because they can't socialise properly with their smoking friends. Well... where do you think this ban has led us? Is it going to kill communication between townsfolk and friends?
Personally, I can't see it working... there will be more pubs lost and yet more jobs lost so where is that helping anything? Local kids will be moving out of the village to live somewhere they can find work, as the pub employs or employed quite a few of the village's youth. This is tragic!
10 people like this
15 responses
@deeeky (3667)
• Edinburgh, Scotland
18 Aug 07
I really find it strange that smokers only go to pubs because they can smoke (inside). Nothing is STOPPING them smoking as they can smoke elsewhere and come back and carry on socialising. What a feeble exscuse not being able to cause cancer to others due to passive smoke. A very selfish attitude I may say so.
People go to pubs to have a drink and a meal, but mainly to speak to thier friends in the meeting place of a community. Using thier iniative, some pubs throughout the country has put the post office inside the pub to save losing that lifeline all together. It's a great meeting place and the people involved should get together and progress with new and old ideas like you did with your pool table.
A marvellous machine called a computer can be used to connect each pub throughout the country and join in interactive pub quizzes, or maybe karaokie competitions between each pub and I'm sure with the inginuity of all the members many more activities could be organised. Collectively people can think of many ideas to keep the pubs going on for many more years yet.
Have a great day from Deeeky.
3 people like this
@Darkwing (21583)
•
18 Aug 07
It's not my business, Mrbranan, but I do feel for those who are landlords of pubs.
As for not being able to smoke anywhere at all, I feel that is a complete invasion of rights, so far down the line. I hope you get smoking reinstated in some areas soon.
Brightest Blessings.
1 person likes this
@Darkwing (21583)
•
18 Aug 07
Deeeky... I hardly think that the smokers can be labelled as selfish when they only had the one place left where they were able to smoke. Don't you think the non-smokers are rather selfish in using passive smoking as an excuse, when they have so many other places which are smoke free where they can go for a meal and to socialise with their friends, where smoking is already banned? They always had a choice, not to enter a smoking zone and stand next to smokers, and I feel that they have seen they have the power to spoil somebody else's enjoyment and entertainment, and they know not when to stop. Sorry to disagree with you, because I respect a lot of what you say, but my Libran qualities desire freedom of choice for all, and a balance in life's opportunities. Therefore, I'm apt to see things from both sides. In this case, I feel everything has been blown way out of proportion, and not happy with the ban, there are now complaints about smokers being outside!
As for pubs linking up for quizzes and things, I think this is possibly done in some larger establishments but is hardly viable in smaller, country pubs. However, there are ways of drawing interest, if only landlords can put their finger on the right button, but that doesn't take away from the fact that smokers still couldn't be a part of this, because they would miss so much having to leave every twenty minutes of however often.
I, myself, chose to give up smoking... not because of the ban, or anything, but for other reasons and life values. I have a friend who smokes quite heavily nonetheless, and several of my friends smoke, thus leaving the pub almost empty at times. The first friend, spends so much time outside, without me, that she hates going to the pub anymore. In fact, she spent an hour or so with me before going home, saying she couldn't do this. I feel sad for people like her, who just can't or don't want to give up smoking, when I remember the great times we had in the pub, in the past. It's all gone now... I still go down and chat with friends, and play some darts, etc., but something is sadly lacking.
Brightest Blessings my dear friend. x
2 people like this
@Lakota12 (42600)
• United States
18 Aug 07
THis is the smae here in Las Vegas really the only place we can smoke is inside the casinos/ and really they already had it set up with non smoking eatting room some places even have a wal betweent he non smokers and smoker but ya still cant smoke in the resturants! or any where where they sell food cooked or un cooked.
They worded it so wrong that even then bar owners had said vote this way well it didnt protect them at all . cant smoke in the bars! of great big fine for the owners. Some owners are fighting back with signs saying smokers welcome . and I wonder how they will make it with this ban on smoking on I seee less and less cars around the bars of course people have lost jobs and it dosent make since that a bar should be smoke free when Kids arent allowed in them in the first place! and that was the main reason was to keep smoke away from the kids . This is totally sad.
2 people like this
@Galena (9110)
•
19 Aug 07
well I've been going out a lot more, and it's been great.
smoking friends don't mind popping outside for a few minutes, just as I used to have to do when I started to feel sick and needed some air.
my nights out have been so much more pleasant, and I no longer feel ill for several days after.
the impact on my life is so positive. I look forward to being able to go and see a band in a non smoking music venue without some selfish idiots ruining it for me and me having to leave early as I feel so ill. despite it being a non smoking venue.
2 people like this
@Darkwing (21583)
•
21 Aug 07
Music venues are a different commodity and yes, I agree that owing to the number of people crushed into some concerts, there should be a smoking ban.
Pubs are still different... you still have a CHOICE! Why do you insist on going into a pub, ten miles from your home, (which incidentally you chose to purchase), when there's a restaurant/bar the same distance away where you can go and drink in a smoke-free area. Life is all a matter of choices... or it WAS before this ban. Now, the smoker has NO choices... nope, not even 25% of the choices. I'm glad for you that you can enjoy your evening out and your friends don't mind popping out for a ciggy every so often, but wait until the blustery winds, heavy rain and snow come. It would be interesting to hear how they feel about it then!
Brightest Blessings.
@Galena (9110)
•
21 Aug 07
my choice is a ten minute walk to a pub, or a walk of nearly an hour to another pub.
that's what I'm saying, it's not really a choice. it's a bit of a dangerous walk with no pavements or streetlights, too.
you choose to smoke, I choose not to. you can go to a pub, and still be a smoker. you just have to pop outside for a few minutes, it's really no hardship.
I can now go to a pub and still be a non smoker.
this has made a big difference to my enjoyment of nights out, and I'm really pleased with it.
I'm not the only person in the world who will go to pubs more now this ban has happened.
I'm sure people complained when they stopped allowing smoking on buses or in cinemas. but people got used to it. this will be the same.
@Darkwing (21583)
•
21 Aug 07
Firstly, as I have mentioned a few times, I no longer smoke, and this I gave up for personal reasons, nothing to do with health, or not being able to smoke in the pubs, but a decision I needed to make about something entirely different. This was done in a totally unselfish way, but I still don't agree that ANYbody should have their rights taken away in dictatorship fashion. They should have a choice... the landlords should have a choice because they KNOW, as I do, having worked as a barmaid for a great number of years, that it's the kids who spend money in the pub, not the non-smokers. Most of the kids smoke in my village, and they use the pub every night as a meeting place.
I'm sorry you live on such a dangerous stretch of road, and that you have to walk a long way to the pub without street lighting, but again, it's your CHOICE of home. It has nothing to do with smokers and what they can and can't do in the pub.
I'm sorry Galena, but it doesn't hold with me. I'm now a non-smoker and I still do NOT agree with this ban.
@craftcatcher (3699)
• United States
19 Aug 07
We are about to get the smoking ban too, as of January 1st, 2008. It is going to put a lot of smaller bars out of business I have no doubt about that. Personally I feel it should be the business owner's choice to be smoke-free or not. It is their business after all. That way the customers can choose to hang out there or go somewhere else. Personally I think it's side-kicking our Constitution more than a little bit.
I smoke, my husband doesn't and he's actually more upset about it than I am. I am more worried about all the smaller bars closing because we're both in a band and we make our extra money playing in bars on the weekends. If they start going out of business it gives us fewer places to play.
I need to quit smoking anyway but I don't like being forced into it. Once they can tell business owners what they can't do in their business, the next step is telling people what they can't do in their own homes. In actuality that is happening in many cases. A lot of bar owners I know live in the apartments above their own business. When the smoking ban comes into effect, they won't be able to smoke in their own homes without breaking the law. It's a little scary.
2 people like this
@Darkwing (21583)
•
21 Aug 07
I think this is the best all-round idea. The landlords should be allowed to decide whether or not they allow smoking in their establishments. This is not a hassle to non-smokers because they have several other places to choose from, and I feel that this is the only way to please everybody. After all, smokers and non-smokers pay the same taxes and should have equal public facilities. What if pubs were privatised and operated under a membership scheme? Would they then be able to stipulate whether they were to be a smoking establishment or not? Food for thought, I guess, but the last thing we want is a dictatorship country. The non-smokers are laughing now, but it won't be too long before they too start losing priveledges, because we're on a bad, downward trend here. Property development is the name of the game, and the fat cat getting fatter... do you really think they care if somebody wants to kill themselves doing something that pleases them?
Brightest Blessings.
@morgandrake (2136)
• United States
18 Aug 07
I know that the local bar owners are complaining about the local smoking bar here. Same thing happens, all the smokers stand outside to smoke. Sorry to hear that you too got caught in the spreading smoke bans.
2 people like this
@Darkwing (21583)
•
21 Aug 07
The local residents didn't like the bin that was provided, and complained that it was unsightly and smelt when they passed it. What next? There's no point putting a bin there... it was taken away at their request. So what else do smokers do with their butts... eat them?
Non-smokers already have the majority of smoke-free public places. There were only pubs left, but did they go to their smoke-free places and leave us to it? NO.
@Galena (9110)
•
21 Aug 07
and what about the smokers that go to see bands in non smoking music venues and smoke anyway.
it's not the end of the world to have to pop outside for a few minutes. pubs are for drinking and socialising. I am glad I can now do that without having to leave early for feeling sick.
@Galena (9110)
•
19 Aug 07
well surely the answer to that is to provide a suitable bin, rather than to lift a ban that makes a positive difference to non smokers, who are the majority.
it annoys me that so many smokers don't think a butt counts as litter. a lot of people who drop butts wouldn't dream of dropping a can or a crisp packet.
@Darkwing (21583)
•
21 Aug 07
I don't find it too difficult to give up smoking, Binlvpj, but it's the principal of the thing. It's prejudice at its peak, and totally unfair to those who find it difficult to give up.
There's one guy in my village with multiple schlerosis. He smokes pot to take away the pain, and finds it very difficult to walk down the street. But, he does just that daily, so he can have a drink, which also helps him cope with the pain, and socialise, which would otherwise be impossible for him. He can't stand for long periods of time, BUT... he has to go outside the pub, to smoke. How bad is that?
Brightest Blessings.
@Darkwing (21583)
•
18 Aug 07
Too true... the government don't seem to think through the consequences. It's a bit like their giving £500 to unmarried mothers to give their children a start in life. How crazy is that? I do think they should use their powers more wisely.
The house opposite our pub has been up for sale for a while. The owner is in a hospice and they don't expect her to come out... lovely lady too. She was a landlady once, so I guess she understood and didn't let the pub upset her.
Brightest Blessings.
1 person likes this
@Stiletto (4579)
•
19 Aug 07
Well I am a smoker and I think the ban was a stupid idea for pubs although I do agree that restaurants, public transport, etc should be non-smoking. Pubs however are a different thing altogether.
I'm in Scotland where the smoking ban in enclosed public spaces (laughably including some bus shelters if they're a certain design!) came into effect more than a year ago now. It's definitely damaged pub trade with staff pay-offs etc. The pubs just aren't really the same anymore - I know personally I'm not in the pub nearly as much as I used to be although maybe that's not such a bad thing I suppose! Evidently all those non-smokers who constantly wailed that they would go into pubs if only people didn't smoke in them haven't kept to their end of the bargain. No doubt they've moved on to complaining about something else now.
I think they should have handled it by leaving it up to the pubs themselves to declare whether they were smoking or non-smoking and, if they wanted to declare themselves a "smoking" pub, they should have had to provide an entirely separate area for smokers. I admit it was pretty silly before when we had just a corner of the pub being smoking or non-smoking because obviously smoke drifts!
However, it's done now and there won't be any going back so I guess we'll just have to make the best of it.
1 person likes this
@Darkwing (21583)
•
21 Aug 07
Stiletto, you are so right. It was the wrong way to go about things. I don't think smokers are all inconsiderate... in fact, I used to ask people if they minded me smoking, and that's the way with a few smokers, but in pubs? No, because everybody knew a pub was a smoking area, and non-smokers obviously didn't mind the smoke if they came in and stood beside you. It was their choice. In fact, a few non-smokers have told me that they think it's a stupid ban too, and that they miss the socialising with their smoking friends. This is because the smokers will be outside more than in, the pub, or that they have decided that they can't be in a pub where they can't smoke.
I agree that the landlords should have been given a choice. Most of them are smokers anyway, and so are the staff. This is a prime example of dictatorship, by the government, and I can't see it working. Sooner or later, there will be smoking pubs and clubs springing up, and then where will be non-smokers be? They'll be in the pubs without their smoking friends, and very lonely, toboot. Non-smokers, or a great number of them, don't go into the pubs still. They have lost far more trade than they have made with the ban.
Brightest Blessings, my friend and thank you for your input.
@gabs8513 (48686)
• United Kingdom
22 Aug 07
Well I knew that would happen I have noticed that the Pub over the Road from me is not as Busy either anymore as it used to be
When ever I walked past it there used to be a lot of People in there now it is nearly Empty
Well the Non Smokers again have won and have probably cost a lot of People their Job
@Darkwing (21583)
•
22 Aug 07
Yes, and your local doesn't have a lot of room to sit outside either, Gabs. It just won't work with all the jobs and businesses dying off. I feel it's a ploy by the government to obtain land for redevelopment, but who will be able to afford it, if there are less jobs to be had?
Brightest Blessings, love and hugs. xx
@sarahruthbeth22 (43143)
• United States
18 Aug 07
I am so sorry to hear about your pub. I am extra sorry because I think it is an American idea that has come to Europe.Here most restaurants smoke free. But you can still smoke in certain areas of bars.Your story reminded me of a movie I saw set in England where the owner of a pub changed it into a restaurant. The owner was the second generation.You know, a young professional type. What we call Yuppies here in the States. What is so sad is that the young wouldn't want to go to your pub. And they are the ones that need ans want a no smoking restaurant.What would happen if your pub let you smoke? Would they lose their license?Would they be fined? Because if they would only get a fine, they should let you smoke. It sounds like they would earn the money each night.I wonder, does the smoke ban cover private clubs? If not, I would start a smokers club and "book" your pub. That way you could gather and smoke and that night the pub is officially closed.
2 people like this
@Darkwing (21583)
•
21 Aug 07
I think the person caught smoking faces and £80 whilst the pub owners face a £3,000 fine if somebody is caught smoking on their premises.
Don't feel bad about it being an American idea... this is the European Union, and the Swedes banned smoking many years ago in their country from what I've gathered. They're very health-conscious people and it's spread through Europe, with the French imposing their rules and regulations... yet again!
I feel that will be the next move... smoking only bars will be dotted around. If they make it like a private club, with "guests", I don't see that they can't do it.
Brightest Blessings.
1 person likes this
@anonymili (3138)
•
22 Aug 07
Well I don't actually have a local but tend to go to different pubs in my local area but have frequented them for over 20 years. Having drinks with friends last week we went to 2 separate local pubs. One of them had an outside seating area which was bursting at the seams with people smokers and non-smokers and the inside of the pub was rather empty with many tables available to sit at but not being used. The 2nd pub we went to had about 15 people inside compared to over 200 when I've visited there in the past when you were still allowed to smoke inside and the garden area was packed although not as busy as it used to be as it was rather a nippy evening. Why are the non-smokers sitting outside the pubs taking up space that us smokers need to sit at? Many of the people I know who whinges about smokey pubs are still sitting outside with us when we go to the pub as they'd be sitting outside and getting pretty lonely! What's it all about eh?!
1 person likes this
@Darkwing (21583)
•
22 Aug 07
Yes, I've noticed that on several occasions too. I think some non-smokers, or in fact, most of them, feel lonely stuck inside the pub, whilst their smoking friends are having fun outside in the garden, so they go and join them. They don't complain about the smoking, and they continue to support the pub with their friends, although one or two of them got so bored sitting alone that they don't go any more. Other non-smokers haven't come out of the woodwork, so pray tell me, why is it the non-smokers aren't barred from the inside of the pub, and having to sit outside when they're in the minority of pub goers.
I can't wait to see what happens in winter, my friend. lol.
Brightest Blessings to you. x
1 person likes this
@anonymili (3138)
•
22 Aug 07
Speaking as a long term smoker who enjoys it too much to even consider giving it up, I presume I will just go outside and appreciate the cold in the winter months. I have to admit to going out to pubs less since the ban was imposed and inviting friends around to mine for a drink and dinner or going around to theirs - so we're saving money and enjoying the comfort of our own homes whilst the pub landlords get poorer, oh well...
1 person likes this
@raydene (9871)
• United States
19 Aug 07
Hey Sweets,
When our state went to no smoking in public places yes the bars took a bit of a hit but then before you knew it they were getting the patrons that hated to sit and socialize in a smoke filled place.They now have double what they used to get.
Soon the smokers got used to going out for a cigg when the need arose. It did take about 3-6 months for most places to aclimate but when they did most are happy with the change..We are now so used to it that it isn't discussed anymore.
The thing is the smokers are not being asked to quit just to not smoke in closed areas where others are effected.Most of the smokers I know are kind loving people that would never hurt anyone. But the non-smoker is harmed more by the second hand smoke then the smoker and most smokers would not want their habit to hurt someone.
Sweets, It will take some getting used to but soon you will forget about it as we have.
Now all of our hospitals, schools,sports centers,etc are smoke free and those that smoke have to leave the grounds to smoke.
I think it's not the smoking that is bothering people as much as being told what to do. Myself if you ask me I'll bend backwards to help but I sure hate being told!
Good Luck Doll...Ride it out...it will be ok!
I'll be think of you
xoxoxoxoxoxo
1 person likes this
@Darkwing (21583)
•
21 Aug 07
Raydene, my friend... ok, so you have your opinion and I respect that, but don't you see that you're being brainwashed, as to passive smoking. You only have to look back at VMKS's response to see that passive smoking is possibly not what they say it is!
I feel very strongly about this because some seven years ago, they tried to sell our pub for property development. I started and fought a campaign to keep it as a pub! It took almost two years, before I got success... several Parish Council Meetings and Public Meetings later, plus meetings with the potential buyer. We got our pub back, whilst another, nearer the top of the village was closed down and sold to a property developer. This is now a house. Now, you're saying that all the villagers and I spent so much money, and time, fighting for our pub.. only to be downtrodden once again. The pub will close for sure. Non-smokers do NOT and will NOT support it. The kids support our local, and most of them smoke. Soon, the property developers will get their hands on the pub, and I will go down in history as the person who led a campaign to no end!
Brightest Blessings, my friend. xxx
1 person likes this
@PunkyMcPunk (1477)
• Canada
22 Aug 07
I am sorry for you my friend. The exact same thing happened here in Ontario a few years back. A lot of the good places, you know the small local establishments went down the tubes. A lot of people lost clientele, laid off wait staff etc... people had to look for jobs in the cities (I live out in the stiX).
What was truly shameful is that a lot of Legions had to close. I don't know if you have legions in the UK but a Legion is ran by the war vets. It is a place for them to get together etc... The Legion often builds a building and lets folks rent it out cheaply for functions-like weddings, family reunions etc... The Legions also do a lot of fundraising and support the community with things like Little League or soccer leagues etc.... well when the smoking ban happened people just stayed home and the legions weren't getting the revenue so they closed.
A lot of people decided to start having wedding receptions etc... outside (like at parks) where people can smoke.
Also what I find is the outsides of buildings are dirty now. People go out have a smoke and throw their butt on the ground. it does add up and leave a place looking dirty.
I didn't see an issue with the way things were here in Ontario before. I mean you went to a coffee shop and had a choice. Do I get my coffee and sit in the nonsmoking section or do I get my coffee and go to the smoking room (completely segregated by floor to ceiling walls)to have my coffee. It was my own free choice. I feel now that the Ontarian government has taken that away.
1 person likes this
@Darkwing (21583)
•
22 Aug 07
I think, as a Canadian, you are still much influenced by British Law, Punky. Yes, we have Legions and guess what... we have Conservative, Labour and Liberal Clubs too. He he he, I wonder who will bleat first???
I agree with you, that segregation was a far better option for all concerned. What's wrong with the government subsidising the fitting of sealed doors between smoking and non-smoking, as well as air filters to pull the smoke out of the area? Naaaaaaaaaaa, can't do that, can we?
Brightest Blessings my friend.
@PunkyMcPunk (1477)
• Canada
30 Aug 07
It wasn't the government that paid for the smoking rooms. It was left up to the individual bar or restaurant owner. If they wanted to make more money they invested in the smoking rooms. But now we don't even have that choice. Smokers have no rights here in Ontario now.
1 person likes this
@sid556 (30960)
• United States
19 Aug 07
Yours is a perfect example of why the government needs to back off and let the choice be up to the owner of the establishment. We have a couple of places left in town that are well-known for their smoking environment. One is a small diner and the other a bar. It is hard to say if these places will lose business as a result of the non-smoking ban. I tend to think that the smokers will do as you all do and go outside and bear the weather. What I do see happening is what you mentioned about the noise outside bothering neighbors. Also groups of people clustered around outside smoking butts can be intimidating for possible new customers. If they stop the smoking outside as well, then they will lose many smoker customers. This should definetly be a business choice not the governments. A business owner knows his clientel. Some places will flourish in a smoke free environment while others will definetly be doomed.
@Darkwing (21583)
•
21 Aug 07
I think the two business who still allow smoking in your town will thrive. Here, we are not allowed the choice, and I agree with you that we should be. There is a heavy fine for the landlord who allows a customer to smoke on his premises, and I feel we will certainly lose a number of pubs within a very short space of time... the property developers will then move in and hey presto! Our pub is a listed building, but what's the betting it goes, and somebody turns the inside of it into a house. I can just see it happening.
Brightest Blessings.
1 person likes this
@sid556 (30960)
• United States
21 Aug 07
yes but unfortunately with the new law coming into effect soon, those 2 places will also have to conform. Even the non-smokers have tried to back them.I know some non-smokers that go into these places and deal with the smoke because the food and the company are worth it.one of these establishments has thrived for as long as i can remember and i'm 51. I am afraid this ban may really hurt the business. Only time will tell.
1 person likes this
@kayrod2 (1304)
• Australia
20 Aug 07
This ban is here in Australia, too. As you know, Im not a smoker, but it has never bothered me when others smoke. Some places have found it hard with the new rules. Here, it is winter, so they are all freezing outside! But the pubs seem to be quieter. I dont know what is going to happen. Things are just getting ridiculous with all the rules and regulations they are putting on people. I know some of these things are good, but when is it all going to stop.
Best wishes to you, darkwing
@kayrod2 (1304)
• Australia
23 Aug 07
I think its a booboo and a plot. Even though people who smoke still go to pubs, and they go outside to smoke, they arent staying as long orgoing as often, so are spending less, which in turn the pub makes less so cant employ as much. It just doesnt add up. Also, i havent seen any new faces in the pubs, either, so the non smokers who didnt go before still arent going. Makes you wonder, doesnt it, why.
Best wishes to you, Darkwing,
