if jesus, then why not hercules?

Thailand
August 27, 2007 8:16am CST
If a person accepts hearsay and accounts from believers as historical evidence for Jesus, then shouldn't they act consistently to other accounts based solely on hearsay and belief? To take one example, examine the evidence for the Hercules of Greek mythology and you will find it parallels the "historicity" of Jesus to such an amazing degree that for Christian apologists to deny Hercules as a historical person belies and contradicts the very same methodology used for a historical Jesus. Note that Herculean myth resembles Jesus in many areas. Hercules got born as a human from the union of God (Zeus) and the mortal and chaste Alcmene, his mother. Similar to Herod who wanted to kill Jesus, Hera wanted to kill Hercules. Like Jesus, Hercules traveled the earth as a mortal helping mankind and performed miraculous deeds. Like Jesus who died and rose to heaven, Hercules died, rose to Mt. Olympus and became a god. Hercules gives example of perhaps the most popular hero in Ancient Greece and Rome. They believed that he actually lived, told stories about him, worshipped him, and dedicated temples to him. Likewise the "evidence" of Hercules closely parallels that of Jesus. We have historical people like Hesiod and Plato who mentions Hercules. Similar to the way the gospels tell a narrative story of Jesus, so do we have the epic stories of Homer who depict the life of Hercules. Aesop tells stories and quotes the words of Hercules. Just as we have a brief mention of Jesus by Joesphus in his Antiquities, Joesphus also mentions Hercules (more times than Jesus), in the very same work (see: 1.15; 8.5.3; 10.11.1). Just as Tacitus mentions a Christus, so does he also mention Hercules many times in his Annals. And most importantly, just as we have no artifacts, writings or eyewitnesses about Hercules, we also have nothing about Jesus. All information about Hercules and Jesus comes from stories, beliefs, and hearsay. Should we then believe in a historical Hercules, simply because ancient historians mention him and that we have stories and beliefs about him? Of course not, and the same must apply to Jesus if we wish to hold any consistency to historicity. Some critics doubt that a historicized Jesus could develop from myth because they think there never occurred any precedence for it. We have many examples of myth from history but what about the other way around? This doubt fails in the light of the most obvious example-- the Greek mythologies where Greek and Roman writers including Diodorus, Cicero, Livy, etc., assumed that there must have existed a historical root for figures such as Hercules, Theseus, Odysseus, Minos, Dionysus, etc. These writers put their mythological heroes into an invented historical time chart. Herodotus, for example, tried to determine when Hercules lived. As Robert M. Price revealed, "The whole approach earned the name of Euhemerism, from Euhemerus who originated it." [Price, p. 250] Even today, we see many examples of seedling historicized mythologies: UFO adherents who's beliefs began as a dream of alien bodily invasion, and then expressed as actually having occurred (some of which have formed religious cults); beliefs of urban legends which started as pure fiction or hoaxes; propaganda spread by politicians which stem from fiction but believed by their constituents. People consider Hercules and other Greek gods as myth because people no longer believe in the Greek and Roman stories. When a civilization dies, so go their gods. Christianity and its church authorities, on the other hand, still hold a powerful influence on governments, institutions, and colleges. Anyone doing research on Jesus, even skeptics, had better allude to his existence or else risk future funding and damage to their reputations or fear embarrassment against their Christian friends. Christianity depends on establishing a historical Jesus and it will defend, at all costs, even the most unreliable sources. The faithful want to believe in Jesus, and belief alone can create intellectual barriers that leak even into atheist and secular thought. We have so many Christian professors, theologians and historical "experts" around the world that tell us we should accept a historical Jesus that if repeated often enough, it tends to convince even the most ardent skeptic. The establishment of history should never reside with the "experts" words alone or simply because a scholar has a reputation as a historian. Historical review has yet to achieve the reliability of scientific investigation, (and in fact, many times ignores it). If a scholar makes a historical claim, his assertion should depend primarily with the evidence itself and not just because he or she says so. Facts do not require belief. And whereas beliefs can live comfortably without evidence at all, facts depend on evidence. The above comes from the following link. I think it asks some good questions. http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
4 people like this
7 responses
• United States
27 Aug 07
Chiang_Mai_boy, Thank-you for spreading the blessed word. Hercules lives! Surely, the Gods in all their glory and wisdom will shower your life with the fortunes befitting the one who once again directs the human worshippers' adoration toward the rightful recepients of all that is glorious. You shall be the highest of the high priests in the newly rediscovered and reconstituted religion devoted to the Greek Gods. Please, let me be one of your subordinate high priests. If we play our cards right, we'll never have to work again. Remember, L. Ron Hubbard founded a religion from scratch based on fiction that made him rich. We can start with a belief system that is already proven. It will be easy money by comparision. Long live Hercules!
2 people like this
@sunshinecup (7871)
27 Aug 07
.Facts do not require belief. And whereas beliefs can live comfortably without evidence at all, facts depend on evidence. Facts do not require belief? Then why is it so many scientist debate over which "theory" to believe? Why two people looking at the same evidence walk away with different conclusions? You do understand that most "theories" that become popular come down to the majority "believing" it to be more reliable but it's still a product of belief? For instance a debate of "Evolution" does to this day exist amongst scientist and there are a number other theories some support besides Evolution. Now with that said, isn't everything something that comes down to what one chooses to believe? I choose to believe in Jesus, some choose to believe in Hercules while others believe in no deity at all. Who gets the ultimate say so over who is wrong or right? Or is it just a simple, believe what you want?
1 person likes this
• Thailand
28 Aug 07
I think it comes down to believing what makes the most sense to you.
1 person likes this
28 Aug 07
Yeah I agree.
@soadnot (1606)
• Canada
27 Aug 07
yes, thanks for posting this... they are all under the same archetype.
@suspenseful (40193)
• Canada
28 Aug 07
We have evidence of Jesus from Paul's epistles and Paul actually met Peter who was one of Jesus's disciples. Also Paul met Timothy who was a young man at the time, and Timothy, when he was older, told more of his congregation who spread the word, some who actually were scribes. So the knowledge of Jesus's existence spread around and continues. We have the proof in the gospel and unlike Hercules who killed his children and murdered acted like a savage, Jesus did no such thing and acted as the son of God, which he is. Hercules never ascended into the heaven seen by a host of witnesses, while Jesus was seen by many, therefore proof of HIS divinity. Maybe you want to believe on gods and goddesses who appear in Frigidaire commercials in Canada, but I and all Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God.
• United States
28 Aug 07
Many in the early church saw Paul as a heretic, not a saint. He lived with the pagans and took their stories to create copies of them, all he did was rename the pagan heroes and made them about Jesus. I never read anything about Hercules murdering his children or anybody else, except for the Hydra and monsters like that. I can say that I saw Jesus and people would not believe me. People back then believed whatever they heard but it doesn't make it any more true.
• India
27 Aug 07
I was not very much impressed by the material provided by the link, from which you said you borrowed the material. One reason was because the article has quotations from Elaine Pagel, her work has been demolished by people like Tom Wright. And Elaine Pagel was unable to answer the questions raised to her. And it is so because her view is very very weak. Moreover, the biodata of the one who provided the link is not sure. I think if we want to do scholarly work it is better to quote from books, not just some material put up by anybody in the internet. People say all sorts of things to debunk other people's religion. And it is ok to say so if such words are quoted from authentic sources or some scholarly sources. Because that will generate healthy discussion. But dubious sources just creat more tension that generate more light. History by nature cannot be repeated. And therefore historical method has to be different from scientific method because in scientific method one can repeat the experiment under controlled condition. So for historical method testimony has to be a valid source of knowledge. And I really wonder how one does epistemology if testimony is not accepted as a source of knowledge.
@ReyM21 (281)
• Philippines
28 Aug 07
You are comparing a myth (legend) against a fact. The fact that Christians believe is called faith. In Hebrews 11:1-KJV it says: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
• Thailand
28 Aug 07
Actually, if you read the post you will see that I was comparing myth with myth. If credence is given to one than you must give credence to the other based on similar evidence.
1 person likes this
@lecanis (16647)
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee
29 Aug 07
You could do the same things with myths from all over the world, but somehow I don't think a human being in one lifetime has enough time and energy to devote themselves to every deity ever written about, spoken of, or believed in. I think people make their choices based off a lot of factors: their families, their intuition, their experiences, their culture... there are so many different reasons people choose what to believe in. That isn't to say that one shouldn't investigate and acknowledge these types of similarities in mythology, or that blind faith is the answer for everything. But telling someone who has already made a choice of what to believe that some other belief is just as good isn't really going to convince anyone. And if it did... then I would think that person was either never truly faithful or was disloyal, to be honest.
@lecanis (16647)
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee
27 Aug 07
I know people who worship the Greek Gods. I've heard them called Hellenic Reconstructionists just as I call myself a Celtic Reconstructionist. So it's not as if no one believes in that anymore. I think ultimately what it comes down to is that most people even if they have investigated religion via scholarly methods ultimately make their decisions about what to believe in because of emotions, personal revelation, and personal experience. If you read the story of Hercules or other Greek stories and didn't feel anything, then you aren't going to choose that as your religious path. Just as if you read the Bible and didn't feel anything, you aren't going to choose that as your religious path.