Abortion and Slavery
By ParaTed2k
@ParaTed2k (22940)
Sheboygan, Wisconsin
December 5, 2007 8:40am CST
There was a dark time in US history (as well as the history of other nations), when it was legal for a person to own Black people. We are still in an equally dark period. We don't buy and sell people anymore, instead we just kill them.
Here are a few interesting parallels:
1: During slavery, Black people weren't considered human beings because they didn't look "like us". Nowadays, we don't consider fetuses human beings because they don't look "like us".
2: During slavery a Black person had no right to freedom. Today, fetuses have no right to exist.
3: The slave owner was within his rights to kill a slave, after all, the person "belonged" to him. Today a woman is within her rights to kill a fetus, after all, the person "belongs" to her.
4: A person bought a slave to make their own life easier. A person kills a fetus to make their own life easier.
5: Slavery was accepted and defended because it was legal. Abortion is accepted and defended because it is legal.
6: Slavery was accepted and defended because it would be infringing on the rights of the slave owner to ban it. Abortion is accepted and defended because it would be infringing on the rights of the mother to ban it.
The fact is, slavery and abortion go hand in hand. Why should I believe that anyone who would defend abortion today wouldn't have defended slavery back then?
If the only difference between slavery and killing babies is one is legal and the other isn't, is the law the only thing keeping pro abortionists from killing any other baby for their own convenience?
7 people like this
18 responses
@redyellowblackdog (10629)
• United States
5 Dec 07
These are interesting comparisons and they make a good point as to how we should respect people's rights even when it is not the law we should.
What do you think of this idea?
Abortion in the case of a fetus developed enough to probably be able to survive on its own should be illegal.
I think the record for an early new born surviving on its own is about 4 months. That being the case, abortion before 4 months would be allowed and after that it would be murder.
While this would not satisfy most opposed to abortion, it is a start and many regard it as a reasonable compromise.
3 people like this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
5 Dec 07
Actually you are falling into one of the abortionists' myths.
The fetus is surviving "on its own" from conception. The zygote has its own metabolism, which isn't run or regulated by the mother.
The mother provides nutrients, removes metabolic waste and provides the environment required for the fetus to thrive.
A child isn't able to "survive on its own" until it can eat, remove waste and provide itself with a healthy environment. So how is a neonate any different than a fetus?
2 people like this
@redyellowblackdog (10629)
• United States
5 Dec 07
"How is a neonate any different than a fetus?"
All neonate will die shortly after being removed from the mother. Some fetus will survive. That is the difference.
I am merely proposing that fetus with a high probability of survival outside the mother be given full rights as human beings.
I am not argueing the moral or ethical desirability of this position. I see this only as a possible compromise that is much better than the current situation where a 5 month old fetus can be aborted at the whim of the mother.
2 people like this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
5 Dec 07
Kind of a 3/5 Comprimise?
You missed my point. A fetus' survival is every bit as dependent as a neonate, infant and toddler. So, why would we consider it ok to kill a fetus, unless we also consider it ok to kill any other person who can't provide food for themselves?
1 person likes this
@devilsangel (1817)
• United States
12 Dec 07
This is utterly retarded. To sit and compare abortion to slavery is the most asinie thing I've ever heard. One has nothing to do with the other. If you don't agree with aboriton thats fine, no one is forcing you to have one, but to sit and compare the two as such is ignorant.
Forcing someone to have a child just because you don't think they should abort it is more like salvery than anything. I find it funny how people are so quick to judge those that chose abortion and are so fixed on them having a child but don't care about the quality of life that child is going to have.
I guess it doesn't matter as long as the child is born right? So what if the mother doesn't want to be a parent or abuses the child it's whole life because she resents having it. That doesn't matter cause it's alive right?
I'm not big on abortions but I'd rather a person have one than have a child that is unwanted and will be tossed aside as such.
You're ideas are more slavematic than those of pro-choicers. Instead of forcing someone into a situation, the person has a choice. Are you going to take care of every child being born now to an unwilling mother since you think abortion is so wrong? If not then stfu. Until you can get pregnant frankly your opinion on the subject doesn't really matter.
3 people like this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
12 Dec 07
Yawn!
Just another example of how the pro abortion on demand side has no ability to think for themselves. Just another list of bumper sticker, knee jerk reactions that have nothing to do with the point of the thread.
Slavery was legal because Black people weren't considered human beings. Abortion is legal because fetuses are not considered human beings.
Both are examples of prejudices that cannot be backed by biology. Both are examples of denying the humanity of one group for the comfort and convenience of another.
If you can dispute, using biological science, that a fetus isn't a human being, I'm excited to read what you can come up with. But until you can demonstrate that a fetus has no metabolism or DNA consistant with that of Human Beings, then at least have the courage to admit that abortion on demand is the legal killing of another human being.
@devilsangel (1817)
• United States
12 Dec 07
I never said that a fetus wasn't a person... did you read anywhere in that statement that said that? No I didn't think you did. Nor did I say I was pro-abortion.. thats your problem, you assume that just because someone is pro-choice they are pro-abortion. No I'm not, I am however for a womans right to choose what happens to her body. Apperntly something you aren't. You never did answer MY question.. are YOU going to take care of every child being born to woman who obviously don't want them and in your world would be forced to have them. Because YOU have an issue with their choice? Like I said I guess you don't care what happens to them after they are born as long as they get here right? The hell with what type of quality of life they have, or the type of quality of life the mother has.
2 people like this
@GloomCookieLex (6073)
• United States
5 Dec 07
Quite frankly, I think you're absolutely ridiculous. The only connection that can be made between abortion and slavery is the banning of abortion. Forcing a woman to carry a fetus against her will is dehumanizing and degrading her into nothing but a walking incubator, forced to work and live against her will for the well-being of something other than herself. Most especially if you throw in the "but there are so many infertile couples who want babies", then you're forcing her to be used for the benefit of the infertile and not herself. THAT is slavery.
2 people like this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
5 Dec 07
No, that is bioligical reality. What is dehumanizing and degrading is the fact that we are willing to kill babies for no other reason than comfort and convenience.
Sorry if biological reality gets in the way of your bigotry.
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
5 Dec 07
apparently unless she decides to have the child, then He is responsible too.
The thing is, the decision to kill or not to kill a child isn't about male or female, it's about whether to kill or not to kill.
If you are fine with killing a baby out of convenience, then at least own up to it. But there were many people who were fine with owning a baby too.
@urbandekay (18278)
•
5 Dec 07
Gloomy... in case you have missed the point. It is a contradiction to argue, as you do, that a natural human function is dehumanising
all the best urban
1 person likes this
@Destiny007 (5805)
• United States
5 Dec 07
Good point and right on the mark.
Just because a thing is legal doesn't make it right, whether it be slavery, abortion, or homosexuality.
3 people like this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
5 Dec 07
Lilwonders:
And the women who throw their babies into garbage dumpsters don't think they are doing anything wrong either.
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
5 Dec 07
You won't get any argument from me there. While I don't agree with the Gay political agenda, I see no reason to treat Gay people "less than human".
@muppetsnap (229)
• Canada
21 Dec 07
Wow. Certainly a lot said about your assertion.
I think it relies on a faulty assumption though - that a fetus is a person. It is patently not. The problem with the debate is that at some point, some difficult to determine point, the fetus does become a person. Hence the limitations on abortion.
It is a very emotive issue, and one which need to compromise the rights of the mother with the rights of the child (when it indeed becomes a child). Often moral choices don't fall cleanly to one side or another.
And finally, the harping of the few women who responded who seemed to imply that men should have no part in discussing the issue - how absurd. Trying to find the best point of compromise is everyones' duty. There are certainly men out there spouting sexist nonsense, safe in the knowledge they will never have to look such a hard choice in the face - but don't paint us all with the same brush.
2 people like this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
22 Dec 07
If you can consider someone a human being, but not really a person, then you've made my point.
Slavery was justified because of the same kinds of lack of logic you use here.
It is not my definition of human being, or even alive. It is biological definition.
Face it, using science you cannot justify abortion on demand.
1 person likes this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
22 Dec 07
Again, it isn't "my" definition of "human being".
DNA is how biology defines a species. That isn't a matter of opinion at all.
However, "what it looks like" is ONLY a matter of opinion.
1 person likes this
@muppetsnap (229)
• Canada
22 Dec 07
There is no lack of logic - as I say, at some point a fetus (which is not a human being) becomes one. Simply because you choose to create a definition which allows you to say that a fetus is a human being doesn't then support the argument you then make from that definition.
Are you suggesting that the non-defined cluster of cells at 2 weeks after conception is a human being?
1 person likes this
@Latrivia (2878)
• United States
5 Dec 07
First of all, abortion doesn't involve killing babies. It's not a baby until after it's born. Until then, it's a fetus, or embryo, depending upon the stage it's in.
Secondly, the issue is not whether it's a human. The genetic makeup of a human is there. There's no doubt it's a human, so that's not the argument. The argument is whether the fetus or embryo is an individual person, or are a part of the mother's body.
Finally, the difference between slavery and abortion is clear cut and simple. Slavery is owning and controlling for one's own purposes another person (or people). Abortion is simply terminating a pregnancy via extracting or forcing an undeveloped or unborn fetus from the womb. They are not the same, no matter how you try to twist it.
2 people like this
@Ravenladyj (22902)
• United States
5 Dec 07
"Finally, the difference between slavery and abortion is clear cut and simple. Slavery is owning and controlling for one's own purposes another person (or people). Abortion is simply terminating a pregnancy via extracting or forcing an undeveloped or unborn fetus from the womb. They are not the same, no matter how you try to twist it."
absolutely and i agree...I also need to say that being a black woman AND one who's had to abort I find the comparison highly ignorant and insulting to be perfectly honest with you. My protecting myself and my family by making that very tough decision is NOT equivilent to owning another human being to do my dirty work and be my dog!
3 people like this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
5 Dec 07
Even when a child is born healthy it isn't any more independent than it was inside the womb. So are you saying that a mother should be able to kill a child until it can fend for itself?
@Latrivia (2878)
• United States
5 Dec 07
"Individual: an organism that can exist independently."
Until around the end of the second trimester, a fetus can't live outside it's mother's womb. Before that point, it biologically depends on the mother in order to remain alive. Therefore, it is not an individual. It is a part of it's mother that can't live without the protection and nourishment the mother's body provides.
As for whether a fetus is a person - that's subjective. Legally it varies from state to state. I'm unclear about the laws in many states, though New York law does specifically state that personhood does not begin until after birth.
Finally, opinions do not change reality. Slavery and abortion are two entirely different concepts. Slaves do not inhabit one's body, a fetus does. Slaves are self aware - up until a certain point, a fetus isn't. By comparing slavery to abortion, you're basically implying that those who were slaves are no different than a collection of cells with no self-awareness.
3 people like this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
8 Dec 07
Yes, slavery is a dirty and cruel thing, but so is killing another human just to avoid responsibility.
@urbandekay (18278)
•
8 Dec 07
Slavery still exists in the world, there are estimated to be 20 million people in slavery still in the world. That is people haled in physical bondage.
all the best urban
1 person likes this
@Debs_place (10520)
• United States
5 Dec 07
Very nice arguments here, I am impressed. You definitely could have a career as an editorial column write.
This is well thought out and beyond reproach.
I have to agree with everything you said.
2 people like this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
5 Dec 07
Thanks Deb. I appreciate that.
1 person likes this
@bravenewworld (746)
• United States
8 Dec 07
I'm pro-abortion, and anti-slavery (obviously).
It's a kind of utilitarian position. I'm quite amoral when it comes to abortion, at least in the first few weeks following conception. There is more harm done, more anguish caused, by forcing a woman to bring to term a baby she doesn't want, than by aborting. While ending slavery caused some anguish for some slave owners, I guess, it was nothing compared to the suffering caused by slavery.
A cow or pig will suffer more from being killed than a fetus in the first few weeks after conception. If this is ever considered a dark time in US history similar to slavery, I'm guessing it will as likely be due animal slaughter, as abortion.
2 people like this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
8 Dec 07
"caused some anguish"???
The Civil War? Reconstruction? Is that the "some anguish" you dismiss so easily?
I'm not saying slavery shouldn't have been abolished (it absolutely should have been), but it cost a lot of lives to do it.
@spiderlizard22 (3444)
• United States
6 Dec 07
Are you talking about rights for the fetus in the second and third trimester? Do you think a zygote or embryo has rights too? I say it is ok for the mother to have an abortion as long as it is in the first trimester.
2 people like this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
6 Dec 07
And who else are you willing to kill, just because they don't look like you and their existence might cause you great embarrassment of inconvenience?
@UnselfishShellfish (1306)
• United States
6 Dec 07
I am saying one thing and one thing only:
There is a huge difference between an adult black person, a child black person or an infant black person.
They are alive. They have the right to exist. In case you missed it, you only get those rights after a certain point in a pregnancy or in some cases, after birth.
That's why if I'm 6 weeks pregnant and you shoot me and kill me, you won't be charged with a double murder unless I'm far along enough in my pregnancy that the fetus could have survived outside of my body. A 6 week old pregnancy is still an unmoving, non feeling or thinking blob of tissue and cells that are still dividing. At best, it looks like a small tadpole. No brain, no feelings, no thoughts, and it doesn't even know it exists. It has no human characteristics.
1 person likes this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
6 Dec 07
How is the natural purpose of the womb making women slaves? Next you will tell me that acknowledging that nursing is the best way to feed an infant is forcing wet nurse slavery upon women.
The only reason there is to be offended by my words is if you accept the truth of them. Either way, taking offense is YOUR choice, not mine.
@GloomCookieLex (6073)
• United States
6 Dec 07
ANY action that is VOLUNTARY and if FORCED upon someone who is UNWILLING is SLAVERY. Just because a woman CAN be pregnant does not mean she HAS to be. Walking and standing are the natural uses for legs, but the doesn't mean the Trail of Tears was justified.
Also, it has NOTHING to do with what a fetus looks like, it's what a fetus physiologically lacks, which is sentience, organs and a nervous system. Things that make a being compatible with life, it does NOT possess.
1 person likes this
@UnselfishShellfish (1306)
• United States
6 Dec 07
"Your bigotry is unnerving."
As is your ignorance of wanting to turn women into slaves and force them to carry around pregnancies in hopes they'll fall in love with that bundle of joy or hand it off to a "needy" childless woman who is too bigoted to adopt a child already in the system.
I'm done. I'm not responding anymore. This topic is about as off the wall as some scammer calling me earlier today wanting my mother's maiden name, my SSN and my bank account number so he can deposit $30,000 in my account tonight.
1 person likes this
@betsyraeduke (2669)
• United States
5 Dec 07
You tell it! That's is a very well thought out and very clever way to make a very good point! I am against abortion as well! I think slavery was wrong too.
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
5 Dec 07
Thank you! It's pretty sad that there are people in this world who don't even respect others' right to exist.
@betsyraeduke (2669)
• United States
5 Dec 07
Your welcome! You are absolutely right!
1 person likes this
@smwilliams (647)
• United States
6 Dec 07
Wow! I never thought I would ever read such closed minded discussion responses in my life in my life...You are going to tell me that a 13 year old girl that is raped and impregnated doesnt have the right to get rid of it. What is wrong with you people? I think every woman has the right to do with her own body as she sees fit. Would you rather a woman who has no means to take care of a child and would have to live off welfare have a child? And please dont use the fact that there are infertile couples who would gladly take an unwanted baby. We know there are infertile couples that want children and Im not knocking them, but I dont believe forcing a woman to carry a child against her will for the benefit of others is right...If you want to talk slavery then use that as a prime example.
I personally cant get pregnant for at least 3 years because it could kill me due to health issues. I use birth control, but nothing is 100% effective. And Im NOT going to give up being intimate with my husband for fear of getting pregnant. The chances are slim, but it could happen and I would have to abort or die and leave my 3 children and husband without a Mother or wife!
And if you are a Man...no offense, but dont even start with me...You have never been a woman nor will you ever carry a child so you could never put yourself in a womans shoes.. Have an opinion fine, but you cant know what we go through.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but do not judge women for what they have the right to do. Especially if you have never been where they are.
2 people like this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
6 Dec 07
Oh, so no bigotry is "open minded"?
The fetus is not the mother! The fetus is not PART of the mother! The fetus does not deserve to be executed for the crimes of the father.
I'm sure there are many very heart wrenching circumstances that might make abortion seem like a logical option. Guess what, there were a lot of very heart wrenching circumstances that made owning slaves seem like a logical option too.
I know women who choose abortion aren't cold hearted hate mongers with no feelings, but guess what, there were a lot of slave owners who cared for their slaves and treated them very well.
The point is, as long as we are willing to deny the humanity of someone else, we will continue making excuses for inhuman behavior.
@smwilliams (647)
• United States
6 Dec 07
Your right there is no excuse for the horrible things befallen to people in our history...But news flash...slavery is over Thank You Abraham Lincoln! And we arent talking people owning anyone now are we. We are talking about women and THEIR bodies. You are a hypocrit and a man plain and simple. You have never been in that position and you never will be...Maybe you should look into your family history since you seem so stuck on the slavery issue...Betcha somewhere in there a branch of your family tree owned slaves.. Most of our family branches did.
Let me ask you this...Do you have a wife/ girlfriend?
What happened if she was pregnant and she had the option of either to die or abort...How would you feel? Or even worse...What if she was raped and impregnanted...Would you want her to carry some mongrels child? And that said you would never know how traumatic it would be for her...Most women regret their abortions and some dont...But when it comes down to it...Its THEIR decision not yours, the government, or anyone's elses decision. CHOICE....I want you to think about that the next time you go to oh say eat a cheeseburger that is horribly bad for you..What if you couldnt because someone was telling you you cant do that to your body....Drinking...smoking...You do what you want to it...let a woman make her own decisions what happens to hers.
Im done and not responding to anymore...Have a nice day!
2 people like this
@urbandekay (18278)
•
5 Dec 07
Well, sometimes I find myself disagreeing with your posts, sometimes agreeing with them but this is your best post ever! A most excellent analogy.
all the best urban
1 person likes this
@aries_0325 (3060)
• Philippines
12 Jan 08
I know that. A woman engaged in slavery is also going to an abortion act and like slavery is a sin also. Abortion is an absolutely wrong and it is a crime of murder. And absolutely I am not favor for this. And I think the fetus have life and like us she/he have a right to see this wonderful world.
@Vancollins (105)
• United States
6 Dec 07
I think that your comparasion is intriguing. I am a Christian, black woman who does not believe in abortion. However, we cannot dictate our beliefs on to others. Because I am a Christian, I believe the scripture that says that I am not my own. I was bought with a price. However, God has given every man freewill. While I wish that everyone would have faith in God for their unborn child, everyone won't.
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
6 Dec 07
I agree, which is why I don't use my religious beliefs in arguments about law. If abortion wasn't about killing a living human being for arbitrary reasons, it wouldn't be such an issue to me.
