Did taking prayer out of schools increase the trend to paganism?

whywiki, I think you missed her point. She was stating that taking prayer out of school damaged the children and have caused the decline of christianity.

Maybe she should be reminded that the U.S.S.R was a communist country and they ordered that the food supplies in the Ukraine be destroyed and were responsible for the Ukrainian famine, that the Chinese Christians are being persecuted severely by that Communist (Atheistic government) and since I have a sister-in=law who is Ukrainian and I saw the Chinese that came from Hong Kong to Vancouver, I feel rather negative towards atheism and communism.

I doubt there is any religion out there that isn't responsible for the suffering of others. It might be argued that the problems in the USSR are the result of totalitarian power, rather than because of religion. But, to demonstrate my point about Christians also causing suffering: The Crusades (from 1095-1291--most of which were sanctioned by the Pope) The Spanish Inquisition (started in 1481 and not completely abolished until 1834) the subsequent burning of accused witches and heretics after mass trials the forced conversion of the American (and Canadian) Natives to Christianity and forcing them into reservations and church-run residential schools where they were abused physically, sexually and emotionally. The infighting between the Catholics and the Protestants that resulted in many, many deaths. (the 30 year war) And even now, in some countries there are Christian missionaries who won't supply aid unless people convert first, or in some cases, only provide bibles instead of food and shelter. After the 2006 tsunami, nuns showed up at the town of Samanthapettai, with trucks full of medicine, food and clothing. Many of the villagers hadn't had a meal in days, and were shocked to find that the nuns required them to convert before they could have any of it. The villagers tried to forcibly stop the trucks from leaving, and the missionaries took off when television reporters with cameras came on to the scene. There's more, but what it boils down to is that there are bad people of every faith. It's easy to blame an entire religion on what some of its members are doing. But this isn't a case of one bad apple spoiling the whole bushel. I have no doubt that there are good atheists just as I have no doubt there are evil Christians. In fact, I think that the evil Christians might be more dangerous, because they believe that the evil things they are doing are sanctioned by God, and you can't reason with that. "Killing in the name of" is still killing, right? As human beings, we are all capable of great good and horrific atrocities. It's up to us as individuals to do what is right, to know what is right, and to live right. I think the bible is a great metaphor for good living, but I think it's just that--metaphorical. There are good lessons to be found in the bible, but I don't think it should be taken as historical fact. I believe there is a higher power than all of us, but I don't believe that Christianity has it completely right, more than any other religion. And I think giving a government, any government, the rights to rule in the name of a particular religion is incredibly dangerous and has been so throughout history.

They've already banned books. They have removed the Golden Compass from some schools in Canada pending review. This is because the author is an aetheist. Unbelievable.

My biggest fear is something Orwellian happening. The government all of a sudden deciding that fiction is bad and burning books. Books becoming contraband.

I totally didn't know this. I bet a lot of the elements they will start banning in books can be found in the bible, rape, incest, murder etc. To obey God, you should be willing to murder your own son? Whatever sugarcoating you put on that, sounds more like the devil - if you love me - you'll go out and murder someone.

I have no idea why paganism is growing. I think it is to do because people here esp in the States, are trying to get to their roots and mistakenly believe that they should follow the religion of their ancestry. So if they come from Ireland instead of remembering Saint Patrick coming to drive out the snakes and preach the Word of God, they go back to the old Celtic gods. Also when the Beatles got interested in New Age that got the parents interested, and since the New Age came from the Hindu and Braham religions who worshipped many gods, it was just a small step. As for organized traditional religion, there are those who do not follow it but claim they do and go and commit crimes in its name. It would be like of a member of my church goes and bombs an abortion shelter and claims that our church told him to and in reality our church saves that all life is sacred. He would be excommunicated, but our church would get the blame.

Definitely not.

I believe people are trying to find ways to justify their sins. The truth is that they can't do it.

well it should be made a point to the kids that it is just a movie and make beleive and not to be taken that they can do it . and stress that is just a movie! and if that is so then we shouldnt have watched bewitched. I played tarzan but knew I could go from tree to tree for our didnt grow like that with vines on them lol I always wanted to go on a safari and discover lost citys but knew I never would and if I did hthat three would never be any gold at the end of the cave or what ever we found. and I believe the harry potter show say something like PG PG13 PG 14 no one younger should watch with out a parent.

I was always the beautiful princess in the castle being held captive by the evil Lord, and my knight would ride in on his white charger or white Cadillac.

I worked with someone who tried to jump off a roof afterwatching Superman. Highly impressionable people should not be watching things that can't be copied. When children or adults with Mental impairments that equal a young child, think they can do as movies or TV shows, then they should either not be allowed to watch such things. Moses parted the Red Sea, but I don't believe I can do that. Miracles can't be duplicated either. Jesus rose up in the air at one point. But I don't believe I can. No matter what I watched, I knew what I could and could not do. I used to copy Daniel Boone on TV, but not Mighty Mouse.

When I went to school, back when dinosaurs ruled the earth, there was no great discussion on the Ten Commandments and none of the teachers had a religious class or insisted that we ought to follow the law of Moses, all the principal did was to read the Lord's Prayer. I do not think that is shoving God or Christianity down our throats. It just got us to think and aside from going to church on Sunday, we were like everyone else, but the Lord's Prayer got the pupils to thinking of honoring God, thankfulness, and forgiveness. And the Lord's Prayer is said by Protestant and Roman Catholics alike. We had a Hebrew school in our city, a couple in fact, and a Chinese school so those who were either Jewish or Chinese went there. Besides what is wrong with learning forgiveness and thankfulness?

Well there are some good pagans and some good non-Christians, but unfortunately natural goodness does not get you into heaven. God brought that thief on the cross into Paradise and also God opened up Paul's heart and they were not good men. God also brought Apollos to HIM and Peter and the fishermen were very honest, so it does not matter what you were before, if God wants you in HIS kingdom HE will bring you in.

So non-Christians aren't forgiving and thankful? I'm fairly certain that it's the parent's job to instill morals and values into their children, whatever their religion.

Well since the Lord's Prayer was only fifteen lines and most of those considering of short sentences of two to four words, I fail to understand how that is so terrible when the kids today are impacted with Harry Potter is so good and isn't J.P. Rowlings a good writer,more. I also fail to understand why people are said to force Christianity when the few who are pagans are doing a better job of converting us to paganism, and the few who are atheists and agnostics are doing their best job of converting us to their way of thinking. Why I am mild compared to them.

I noticed that. They think I have to read a whole book on Wiccan and on paganism, and then read of all the horrible things done by those who were false Christians and those crusaders many who never read the Bible because only the priests did and they just told them certain things and kept quiet was needful. They intend for us to quit being Christians and follow their path, or whatever they call it. I know all about the ancient gods of Greece and Rome, I have read the Illiad and the Odyssey, and there it talks of King Zeus, etc. so I got from that that Zeus and the other Greek deities did not start out as gods but were actually real people who eventually got worshiped as gods. I am mostly of German, Welsh-Roman, and Danish-Norman descent and few of me may be Celtic, so that is why I am not as knowledgeable on the celtic religion that the neo-pagans base their beliefs on. If I write another novel in which my hero meets some, then I will do some research.

Oh yeah, you get an atheist or pagan started up, they do get fired up. I prefer to say the truth and go on. If they want to fight, they won't get much out of me, I just allow the Holy Spirit do what He needs to do..

By taking prayer out of the school, that means all prayers are forbidden or it should. Now if the school decides to teach children to be good little Muslims, as one school did, then that is wrong. Taking prayer out of school, therefore, promotes secularism. And even non=religious people when they hear the Lord's Prayer will be less inclined to believe they can get away with stealing or murder. But now it seems that in the eyes of some individuals, taking the Ten Commandments and the Lord's Prayer is giving them license to do what they want and paganism is one of the end results.

"non=religious people when they hear the Lord's Prayer will be less inclined to believe they can get away with stealing or murder." If you are non-religious and repeating the prayer like a good little robot, then you are not getting anything from it. If you don't believe what is behind it, you will not be affected by the prayer. "But now it seems that in the eyes of some individuals, taking the Ten Commandments and the Lord's Prayer is giving them license to do what they want and paganism is one of the end results." Paganism IS NOT giving anyone license to do what they please. Being pagan is not evil, wrong or immoral. These people have their own good ways that they follow. You can be a "good" Christian and go to church every week and steal, murder, and cheat on your spouse. If anything pagans live by a higher standard. Unlike Christians, they practice what they preach and do not force their religious beliefs on anyone else. When was the lat time you heard about a Wiccan going door to door to tell you about their faith? or asking for money because their religion "needs" it? People are not using religion as a crutch anymore and that is a good thing. Religion was created because people could not explain things like the sun setting, rain, etc. now science explains all of those things. Since we have a better understand of how things work and how evolution works, why should we use religion to "scare" us into being right? Based on everything I have seen you write thus far you do not have a good grasp of what a pagan is nor any knowledge past your own religion. I highly suggest you take a college religion course where other mainstream religions are taught about, then go to your library and learn about other not so main stream religions that exist. If you still feel the same, then you have a right to your opinion. Otherwise, you need to keep your closed mind to yourself. Just remember, that most people who are brought up in religious homes are the first to rebel and leave their religion.

I am a Calvinist Reformed who believes that God has chosen me like HE did numerous others. I do not have enough money to attend relgious school, although we do have Bible Studies, and we do have post catachism classes plus speakers who come to improve on certain points of the Bible and how it attends to our life, but what you want me to do is to attend a religous study that says it is okay for someone to be a pagan and worhship Zeus, or someone to be a Buddhist, etc. and that all roads lead to heaven. I am steadfast enough in my faith so that no one, not even you, will cause me to go to another religion or belief. And in the Bible it says,"marvel not that the world hate you." It hated Jesus Christ, even the religious leaders and later the heathen and the Romans, remember Nero? So I am not surprised that you say I am bigotted. I am not a bigot because I believe that all should have the opportunity to know Jesus Christ and accept HIM as their savior. I do not suppose, as what some believe, that only the African American can believe in Jesus while us whites are supposed to be hedonists.

LOL oh I dont know if you know but I didnt say that whole HP and Golden Compass thing...I was quoting suspenseful..I dont see ANYTHING wrong with those movies at all in fact I love them all...

I do not like movies with animal spirits, well I am not descended from Native Americans, and besides I do not like the idea that your race or ethnic group determines what religion you should follow. Why according to the post modern thinking, me being part Anglo-Saxon, Welsh from Italian, Danish, German, Austrian, should be having the household Lares gods in my house, a statue of Jupiter, plus representations of Thor and Woden. It sounds confusing. The author of the books on which Golden Compass was one, was determined to make Christianity bad, that atheism and godlessness should only be allowed in politics. Christianity was the predominant religion when I was in school and it would have been easy to allow other prayers. We do have sound proofing, so why could they not say that all who believe the Bible go to this room and hear the Lord's Prayer one day, and a prayer of Moses another. Then those who are Muslims, can go to one room, those who are Hindu one room. After all it was before school started, but I guess that was too hard for them.

I think it could be very time consuming to allow for a prayer from each group. Alternating by religion is an interesting idea, but the one kid who is a different religion from the others might feel very weird about it. I did work in a school in college, an experimental school that had a day when everyone could research and tell about different religions. That was very interesting. On the one hand, you're not the religion of your ancestors, but on the other, you are the predominate religion. Weren't those other religions predominate at one time? Is this discussion mostly because you're worried that the predominate religion may become something else?

Let me put it this way. Jesus never pushed himself on anyone. Jesus never pushed anyone away. Jesus respected all of human kind. In fact, the only time he ever reacted in a non peacable way was with people who were ripping off human kind. Jesus didn't follow the rules. If he did he would have married and had a half a dozen kids. So, as I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, I attempt to do likewise. And I don't believe that hatred and bigotry were his way. I also don't believe that he would be freaking out over harry potter and flipping about endorsed prayer in school. And, FYI, kids do pray in school. My kids have a prayer group every morning before class starts. Even my Gay son. The law says that faculty and adminstraters cannot require prayer in school. It doesn't say that kids can't pray.

The Bible does tell us to preach the good word in and out of season or to tell others about Christ. God chooses people, so you want people to decide either to follow Christ or some other religion and unless they are peaceful no matter what, that they do not fight against evil, then it is okay? It is easy to follow paganism, loving animals, it is harder to follow Christ.

Since when are parents these "evil" politicians and school admins that you're preaching against for taking Christianity out of school? If you want to brain wash your kids, go right ahead, but it doesn't belong in the school as rote. There are other kids of other religions and probably are part of other brainwashing regimes who quite frankly, don't want to hear it and shouldn't be subjected to it. How would you feel if the schools suddenly made it manditory for all students to participate in morning clensing rituals? They're not a bad thing, they're about getting rid of the ngativity of yesterday to start fresh today, so why not? Many beliefs use these anyway, so anyone who disagrees should just suck it up, right? How is that any different than you saying that students should have to hear or say The Lord's Prayer every morning, regardless of their personal beliefs or lifestyles?

Exactly.

Let me guess a parent does not have the right to tell a child what is right or wrong? Wasn;t that what Dr. Spock did, and now we have all these spoiled children? Christian parents whose children are baptized are SUPPOSED to bring up their children in the Lord. And I have seen none of the children in our church scream bloody murder or try to get out of the church as soon as possible or fight. You see, it is an assumption that if the parents are Christian that the children are forced and as soon as they grow up, they will immediately reject Christ. God choses the person, the person does not chose God. Do you mean that God is so weak?

I try to do my best, but it is inadequate at best.

We do not have a cross in Winnipeg, you know like a special one, and I wish they did. All we have is the store decorations that honor Santa, and there is little of the real Christmas spirit, more of commercialism. If we want to hear and see that, we have to turn to the relgious station, Bravo and the PBS or watch the religous movies.

Hi Cyntrow, Merry Christmas to you too! I wish I knew you were in town. Maybe we could have gotten together for dinner or something! Let me know next time, ok? Merry Christmas!:)

I think she was trying to be funny. "Bother" I had to laugh when I saw that. Love it! I have a bother icon somewhere...maybe I should use it next. :)

"You do realize that Paganism predates Christianity by at least a week or two, right?" A week or two? More like a millenium. Christianity is only 2000 years old, the Egyptions, Greeks and Romans date back just about 3000 years, Mesopatamia even more than that. Also, "Let's bother Snape" lol.

I was being facetious, gloom. That should have been made clear in the very next sentence but whatever...

"I was wondering about this poor kid Timmy. What is he wants to learn about God or any religion, and his parents refuse to teach him? Is he condemned to be without God for all his life?" And the same goes to Christians--if your child wants to learn about paganism or atheism will you let them? If Timmy's parents don't want him to know about god that is their right, just as Christian parents stop their children from learning about other religions to protect them. I tried to keep religion from my children as long as possible. My oldest learned about god from a friend at school when she was 5 or 6. My son learned about religion when he started school (a Catholic school). My other 2 children know nothing but what their siblings tell them and have never been in a church. And if we lived in a different area that had good public schools they probably never would go to church because I don't want them to, and that is my right as a parent. My kids are still happy and normal kids. I would be very upset if they had to sit through prayer in a public school because it would confuse them and it isn't what we believe. I think all Christian parents who think prayer should be in public schools should have to have their children sit in school and listen to the prayers of another religion every day for a month or two and see how they feel about that. There is no opting out of it. They will have to sit every single day for 2 months and listen to a pagan prayer or muslim prayer with no explanation given. The teacher just recites the prayer with the kids every single day and they have to do it because it can't hurt them, right? It can only do them good to hear prayers, that is what this is about.

I was wondering about this poor kid Timmy. What is he wants to learn about God or any religion, and his parents refuse to teach him? Is he condemned to be without God for all his life? Remember he probably never knows what a church is, to him it is a building. Hearing the Lord's Prayer is possibly his only way and all he needs to know is find someone who has a Bible. A lot of mainstream churches are weak because they are afraid of going against public opinion and those who do not are disapproved of. And it is not right to talk to people as if the starter of the post does not exist. That is rude.

Exactly what I was thinking. How would Christian parents feel if their young one had to listen to sermons and prayers of another faith? It's funny, but whenever we hear these arguments about God being taken out of schools, it's always the Christian God being referred to. What if the shoe were on the other foot and Christianity were the minority, and kids of Christian faith had to go to a Muslim or Wiccan school and be subjected to their faith? Christian parents would be in an uproar that their kids were being discriminated against.

suspenseful, I pray that God enters your heart. Because it is dark and full of hate and ignorance. AMEN

I am a Christian. A Christian does not feel that other religions are the same. Anyone who does not believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is an anti-Christ. So if I believed that paganism, the worship of other gods is all right, then I would not be a Christian. You believe that all roads lead to heaven, I believe the Bïble teaches and it teaches that only through Jesus Christ can one be saved, not through Thor, Woden, the goddess, Isis, Zeus, Jupiter, Kali, Buddha, etc.

We have to pray for their salvation and hope that God will open their eyes. We should not pray "Dear God, I know there are those who believe in Thor and Zeus and who worship the moons and the stars and the sun, let me understand and tolerate them, so I not do want YOU to change their hearts and we should not only love them but leave them in their error." Yet love is interpreted as leaving them alone, and not trying to win them to God. No wonder there are so many pagans, when we are so silent.

Oh my, the paranoia is thick in this room. Calling all robots, grow a brain. Learn to think for yourselves.

I agree with your statement that "religion should not be included in the curriculum unless it is a religious school". When you say that " It is the responsibility of preachers, evangelists, and other religious people to preach the word of God thru many means", are you saying that preachers and other religious leaders should push their religion on others because they feel that people are not exposed enough to religion? or just that when they are approached about god to give their view point?

We had prayer out of public schools in 1962-1963, and it can be put in at the parent's request. What the rule in the State was not that no religion should be allowed in public life. What it meant was that the United States should not have an official religion like they have in England with the Anglicans, with Italy with the Roman Catholics, with Pakistan with the Muslims, with India with the Brahmin or Hindu. So what has been done was that religion was taken out of public life and since at the time, most in the States were Christians even if nominally so, that was assumed that the government was ant-Christian and so people looked to fulfil the void with other non offensive beliefs.

That is the thing.Public schools don't and shouldn't have prayer in school so no one is forced to worship any religion that isn't theirs/ It doesn't matter if a public school is 98% Christian and 2% other, there shouldn't be any Christian prayer at the school. Think how you would feel if your daughter or son went to a public school and was forced to say a Muslim prayer? That is why it should be banned in public school. But in a private school, you can pray every day any way because it isn't publicly funded.

Well the trouble was that in the schools, Christianity was the prime belief and there were few children of other beliefs. So what it was the only atheistic parent of a student who decided to take prayer out of school. If there had been several atheistic parents as well as the Buddhist or whatever beliefs who petitioned the schools, then that would have been all right. Then there could have been something resolved. In any other situation, if I as a lone Christian make a petition to allow the Ten Commandments to be read in class when I am in a non-Christian or non-Jewish country, why is it okay for a lone atheist to make a petition and have it honored?

We had the Lord's Prayer said all through grade school and into high school. I am sure there were some parents who were living in sin, but that was something no one talked about and certainly those who did were able to lie and say that they were not living together and because of what life was then, they would not tell their children. So no teacher would ever had told the children that their parents were living in sin, because they would not know. You see, then everyone assumed that all couples were married.

I remember there being a Bible passage read to us and the Lord's Prayer being recited when I was in 1st grade, and I'm not sure what grade it was stopped but I was still in grade school, I think 2nd or 3rd at the most and at that time the majority - if not all - of the kids in my class were Christian. Or, I guess I'm just assuming that since I'm not sure if all of them were taken to church or taught about religion at home or not. Whether it was "right" at that time for a single atheist to get prayer stopped in public school is really no longer the question. I feel that if that were done today with the diversity in many public schools today, not only when it comes to faith and ethnicity but also lifestyles it would simply be asking for trouble. It certainly wouldn't be inconceivable for a teacher with very strong Evangelical beliefs to pass her beliefs about some students' parents onto the class. I can picture a child going home and telling her parents the teacher said they were living in sin because they're not married or because one had been divorced, or any number of other scenarios. By now allowing religious teachings in the public schools we can avoid those kind of problems, at least to some extent. Annei

Suspense, No, you don't claim that the bible is your God. I made that claim. And I still feel that way. It's not your fault. You were not taught that God is not a part of the book. You do not understand that the words do not necessarily mean the same thing as they did when they were originally written. You don't realize that much of the original works were hidden or destroyed. I don't say this to make you feel bad. I do hope to open your eyes, but at the very least, I want others who might read this to see clearly.

I do believe that the King James Bible is from the Geneva and the Bishops, and many scholars copied the words from the preceding. We all do not understand Latin or Greek, I know a few words of Latin, but not enough. If we knew Latin and Greek and Hebrew, and the Bible was kept in its original tongue, then you would say the Bible is the word of God. But if you figure how things were preserved, well supposing someone wrote all of Isaiah in Hebrew, parchment rots, so he had someone recopy the scroll again, when that was about to deteriorate the next person recopied the same scroll and I am sure they had some heavies around to make sure they made no mistakes. This also applied to the New Testament, so the fact that it looks new means that it was copied again and again. the King James Bible is a literal translation, and some of the words have a different meaning. I was thinking of writing an article on the difference between the Greek translation that led to the King James Version and the one that led to the NIV. (the one found in a wastepaper basket in the Vatican, by the way, according to what I heard.) So is the Vulgate the true word of God, the Geneva Bible, The Bishops Bible, the one written by Wycliffe? Now back to the subject on hand Prayer in school and the results of taking it out.

I do believe in God and I do believe the Bible was written by man and inspired by God. God gave them direction, and I do believe that there are those who hate those who believe in the God of the Bible. I found that to my sorrow. I do believe taking prayer out of school had negative effects, and it was just one of the tips of the iceberg, and unfortunately there are those who only do good because they fear punishment if they were caught. These are in the minority, but they are a loud minority. So I do not claim the Bible are my God, I claim that God inspired men to write HIS word and law. Some on this post got me wrong and wanted to make me feel bad and make me keep quiet about my faith. And also talked behind my back.