Just HAVE To Get This Off My Chest
By pyewacket
@pyewacket (43903)
United States
December 10, 2007 7:58pm CST
Okay I just have to get this off my chest and speak my mind out, so yes venting here a bit. I came across a discussion how one MyLotter thought that by taking prayer, especially the Christian "Lord's Prayer" out of schools, and of the popularity of such has increased the trend to paganism---what nonsense is all I can think. Taking prayer out of schools or the popularity of Harry Potter has nothing to do with people switching to the pagan or wiccan path--people have been accepting this path a life long before Harry Potter.
As for taking prayer out of schools, there is a valid reason for this...now it's one's thing if a child does go to a Christian oriented school and for all I know they might still have prayers in them--However, in my area, many children do go to say the large Catholic schools near me, but many of the children, believe it or not aren't Catholic and the only reason they go to these schools is that it is felt that the education system is far superior than those of public schools, but they, the schools have to make allowances for those children NOT of the Catholic faith, and who are instead, perhaps of the Hindu, Buddhist, Moslem, or even Protestant faiths that attend these schools and thus the reason for eliminating Christian type prayers, so as to not offend those who aren't Christian, or particularly Catholic.
It infuriated me no end though, that this person said that she had no interest in witches or wizards unless it was "us against them and by God's power we defeat them"...Grrrr. How sad, how narrow minded...Before people get up in arms against we who are followers of the pagan or wicca path, it would be NICE if these same people who are so willing to condemn those of us who chose by our own free will to follow this path to begin with maybe, just maybe did a little research and reading to the world of paganism and wicca in general. Too many people when they think of Witchcraft in general are thinking in terms of all the garbage that has been perpetuated by both the Christian church itself, and by the glamorization of how witchcraft is portrayed in the movies.
Let me just give you a thumbnail sketch of the "history" of Christianity first, for one thing she mentioned was how the pagan Roman Empire persecuted and killed many of the early Christians...This is true, yes, the early Christians were rounded up by the Romans, thrown into the arenas of coliseums for the "entertainment" of the Romans as they watched the Christians being torn apart by tigers or lions. Ah...but when Christianity became stronger and there were more followers, they in turn persecuted Romans...destroying the temples, destroying any images of the pagan gods and goddesses, and raped the Vestal Virgins.
Now lets zoom up to St. Patrick's time, as this is another area this person hit upon...she mentions that is was St. Patrick, the patron saint of Ireland was the one responsible for ridding Ireland of snakes...uh...that wasn't all he was trying to eliminate for he was also trying to eradicate and persecute those of the pagan Druid religion.
Oh, gee and don't forget the mighty Crusaders where the "soldiers of Christ" champaigned their "Holy War" against the Muslim kingdoms --the Holy War crusades lasted a whopping 250 years by the way and all in the name of Christ and his glory--the basic idea being that Christians wanted to recapture Jerusalem back from the Muslims, as Christians felt that since Christ was born in nearby Bethlehem and spent his life in Jerusalem that it was sacred to Christians...while on the other hand Muslims also considered Jerusalem sacred to their beliefs--there is no record of how many Muslims were killed/slaughered by Christians.
The point I'm trying to make is that in my opinion, Christianity has probably been one of the bloodiest religions going....need I remind you of the "burning times" when millions of people from Medieval times up until the 1700s, and were considered heretics or "witches" were burned, killed, slaughtered--the worst was in various towns of Germany, where whole towns of people where killed because they suspected witches to live there. Then there is the early settlers of America, many who were escaping religious persecution but became persecutors themselves of anyone who didn't believe the way they did and felt it was their duty to God to eradicate and kill those not of their beliefs, particularly of course the "heathens" that is Native Americans---America unfortunately has always had a low tolerance for anyone not of the Christian faith, particularly non=Protestant sects...look at the hoopla that was made when President Kennedy became President because he was Catholic...gee, it might stun people to know that the Presidents, Teddy and Frank Roosevelt were of Dutch Jewish decent--a little known fact...Most of all, lets not forget the millions of Jews killed during the Holocaust by Christians.
So it infuriates me no end when someone rattles on that they believe that their religion is the one and only right one, and that everyone else is going to Hell when they die--gee, I guess that means an AWFUL LOT of people are going to Hell then. Let me see that would include Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc, etc...and of course us pagan/wiccans. I also get infuriated when such people will also condemn those of us of the pagan/wicca religion when they don't have the slightest idea of who we are and maintain the erroneous misconceived beliefs, many of which were perpetuated by the church itself, and further enhanced by the glamorization of movies ...many of which show the "Left Hand" path of witchcraft, or Satanism, which by the way has NOTHING to do with pagan/wiccan beliefs but a corruption of Christian ones. These same people don't have a clue or know about their own bloody history of their religion--this person even suggested that we pagans/wiccans are trying to seek converts--what a laugh....Like, hey, it's not Pagans/wiccans going around door to door to gain converts, but those of various Christian sects asking "Has your soul been saved?' Is it any wonder that for many people Christianity has left a bitter taste to people?
Now..hold on folks...before you start bashing me....My father's side of the family were Methodist, my mother's side Catholic..I grew up Catholic, was confirmed Protestant...got interested and involved with Unity and Science of Mind, studied Hinduism, Buddhism, and even Sufism---I STILL maintain MANY of my Christian beliefs, but chose to follow the Pagan/Wiccan path--a path that I feel more harmonious and more content with and many of the beliefs are actually ones I held all my life, without realizing it...my great-grandmother of Celtic origin (Irish) while Catholic herself, was a pagan/wiccan---you might say I'm just continuing her beliefs.
Also, to say that Harry Potter and books like them are encouraging children or people in general to become witches is also ridiculous--people have decided the pagan/wiccan path did so long before the popularity of these books---besides Harry Potter is a work of fiction and I think people will realize that real witches don't fly on brooms ( though would be nice...think how much gas one would save) nor can we twitch our noses like Samantha Stevens of Bewitched and have our homes instantly cleaned (that would be nice too), nor do we wave wands and say wingardium leviosa and make things levitate. If people only took the time to read, really read what the pagan/wiccan religions were all about, maybe they won't make such erroneous assumptions about us and of who we are.
I would truly like to see the day, when we can all really understand and respect each others religions...wouldn't that be great? When is it going to sink in, that despite the various names we may call the Divine or Supreme Entity or Diety (deities) we ALL have some kind of belief in something...we just call it by a different name.
As a final thing....and I'm definitely out of the "broom" closet...I'm content and happy to be a pagan and wiccan, and I'm proud to call myself "witch" Got a problem with that? :)
14 people like this
30 responses
@highflyingxangel (9225)
• United States
11 Dec 07
I'm glad someone decided to say it. I'm so tired of those high and mighty ones that are so full of themselves they can't think of anything or anyone else aside from themselves. Christanity is not the only religion in the world. Taking christain prayer out of schools will not make children switch to paganism. If I had children that attended school were prayer was widely accepted, I would take my children out of that school and homeschool them. Then again, I am pretty pagan in belief styles, but Harry Potter didn't cause it.
5 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
11 Dec 07
Thank you...gee, I have to be less shy about saying things, no? LOL
Yes, people don't realize what an insult it can be to have Christian prayers said in school, when Christians aren't the only ones attending the school.
4 people like this
@Aurone (4755)
• United States
11 Dec 07
You go girl. Don't forget that the "church" cause the Black Plague as well. In eradication cats since the were believed to be witches familiars they let the rat population get out of control and its a flea on the rat that carries the plague. More rats, more fleas that bite people, mores cases of the plague and there folks is an epidemic.
I have been Wiccan for six years but I was brought up Baptist. And I didn't read the Harry Potter series.
And I agree with you, I respect other people's religion. I know someone of just about every faith, I wish others would respect mine.
Just to prove that two religions can live in harmony, my husband is Christian and I am Wiccan and we get along just fine. We respect each others beliefs and allow the other to worship as they like.
4 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
12 Dec 07
I don't believe in hell either, but do believe in karma. What goes around comes around or whatever you give out comes back to you (threefold)
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
12 Dec 07
Oh yup, do know that since the church was killing off all the cats, the rat population went sky high and were carrying the plague. Like to think my two kitties are my familiars especially my black cat Pyewacket. LOL.
Like you I know a bit about each religion myself and do have great respect for them all. This person though has been insulting anyone and everyone who doesn't think exactly like her. According to her our type will go to hell. She's also on a kick that animals have no intelligence or have souls. Grrrrr. She's the one with no soul as far as I can see.
1 person likes this
@sedel1027 (17846)
• Cupertino, California
11 Dec 07
Great post! I read the discussion you are referring to and responded to it. The more I read of her(?) responses the more mad I got. I can not believe people are so closed minded! For all she knows, the joke may be on her for following an organized religion. I do not believe in any way shape or form that taking religion out of schools has been contributing to any form of paganism. If anything, there are more people who grew up in religion heavy homes that are either non-believers or follow pagan beliefs.
4 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
11 Dec 07
Yes, I saw your responses there too. I think I should refrain from responding over there as I just get too heated up. And, yes, that is precisely why many people do change religions, and not just necessarily pagan types, but any kind cause many grew up in religion heavy homes
@babykay (2131)
• Ireland
11 Dec 07
Gosh whatever happened to religious tolerance! I am of no particular religion myself, but adhere to Jesus' 'love one another' thing and the Bible Would actually like to know more about Wicca. It seems clear that there is some good in almost every religion. Its when the fanatic/lunatic/fundamentalist freakoids get their hands on a religion that the rest of us better watch out! I find that usually the rest of us means Gays, people of a different skin colour, vegetarians, women....list is endless really.
I have noticed that a lot of people appear to be getting terribly upset about Harry P, what's all the fuss about? I haven't even seen any of the movies. Maybe I shall get them out now! I am Irish myself, I know one witch.
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
12 Dec 07
I love that term you use. Yes, this person is an obvious fanatic/lunatic/fundamentalist freakoid that gives people who really are genuine followers of Christianity a bad name, the kind you want to hide under a rock if they start preaching. As for Harry Potter. I love the books and movies!
@saigonwarrior (1331)
• United States
11 Dec 07
Nope, I don't have a problem with that at all.
I do have a problem with religions bashing others
for not believing as they believe.
They say they believe in freedom of religion and
speech..but, you soon find out they only believe this
if it is THEIR religion that you are being positive about.
Yep, narrowminded is the EXACT word that comes to my mind, also. In fact this is my personal pet peeve.
I do wish others would live and let live. What is Hell? That is a joke to me. So funny...lol
Some should really investigate the origins of THAT!
I could care less what others believe. As long as they aren't hurting anyone, who the heck cares?
I just hate when others try to push their holier than thou attitude on everyone else..BLECK!
Happy Holidays!
Yep, I didn't say Merry Christmas..so boycott me!
Duh.
4 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
11 Dec 07
To quote you...."They say they believe in freedom of religion and speech..but, you soon find out they only believe this if it is THEIR religion that you are being positive about..." Oh how true. I couldn't care less if someone decided to believe in a religion that worshiped goldfish..LOL And yes, I cringe every time someone tries to cram their holier than now attitudes on me
Happy Holidays
MERRY CHRISTMAS
Feliz Navidad
Joyeux Noel
Froehliche Weihnachten
Buone Feste Natalizie
3 people like this
@ersmommy1 (12588)
• United States
11 Dec 07
That was a long read. I agree with alot of what you had to say.It's not just Christians that have been bloody toward one another, but Christians do have a long and frequent history of bloodshed. Geez look at all the fighting in Ireland. Catholic, Protestant. Unfortunately, I believe this to be a sad part of HUMANKIND not just christians,jews, muslims...and on down the line. you see stickers all over bumpers WWJD? In my opinion he would not be pleased with most of the goings on since his time. My husband and I are not of the same faith, and have made a pretty good life together. Tolerance people. Understanding. Kindness. WE ARE ALL HUMANS! And if you haven't taken the time to stop and take a look around, do so. another HUMAN is living next to you. They may not practice the same beliefs as you, have the same education as you,raise their kids in the same fashion.Difference is what makes HUMANS great! Now pass me a broom, a menorah, my cross, some sage, hey PYE what else do you think I'll need?
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
12 Dec 07
Yes, in many ways the sad part is that almost every religion has had it's share of bringing about bloodshed all in the name of their "god" And yes, sometimes wonder if the animosity between the Catholics and Protestants will ever leave Ireland.
Uh, let's see, you have a broom, menorah, cross, sage. Don't forget your Book of Shadows. LOL. I was just mentioning to a friend of mine, that even though I'm pagan/wiccan, I still have my old statues of St. Francis of Assisi and St. Jude, plus this ancient framed picture of Christ that belonged to my great-grandmother. Some combo, no?
@Lakota12 (42600)
• United States
11 Dec 07
hmmm I was wondering when someone was going to fly of the handle.
I dont know enough about your beleives to say one way or another but I do beleive we all have a right to beleive in what we want.
I also was sort of upset by what she said thats why I threw int here that we shouldnt have watched bewitched.
When Ya read a book or watch a movie ya cant beleive all it tell you for ya know most of it is fiction and it is under fistion I thnk
ya have to watch it with your kids and guide them to not jump off any thing thinking they could fly .
I used to jump off shed roofs but I wasnt trying to fly we would jump to see who could jump the fartherest lol
and you right no matter what we beleive there is always some thing to beleive in weather its an inidty of diety.
and like I have said before the bible is just a history of man wrote by men .
can any one really beleive some one lived to be 900 years old I think that was what was stated in there some where.
I read some where , where someone form Iraq said this is a holy war that we are in I dont see it as that has nothing to do with religion at all just oil, and the rights of the people that have been governed by tyrannts! and to set them free to govern their way to freedom.
3 people like this
@Lakota12 (42600)
• United States
12 Dec 07
tried answering this yesterday and wouldnt load so here I go again lol
yes seems to me I have read that some where
and in my church we have what is called aticles of faith and one of them is we beleive in the bible as far as it is translated correctly.
there is more to it but will not put it here no tellling what that would start up lol hugs
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
11 Dec 07
I think this person, like unfortunately many do, do take the Bible too literally, that its (no pun intended) gospel truth. The Bible was written by men...no one was there to record the creation of the universe or man and woman...and did you know that many of some of the original writings for the Bible were censored and left out?
1 person likes this
@reinydawn (11643)
• United States
11 Dec 07
I have got to come back when I have more time to read everyone's responses. I must say, I enjoyed the chuckle. It really amazes me that people can be so ignorant. The people with blinders on and feel they are the ONE TRUE FAITH might be right, but I tell ya, it ain't for me! So, I'll see ya in hell I guess...
3 people like this
@reinydawn (11643)
• United States
12 Dec 07
Aw man!!! That puts a whole new twist on this. My skin knows 2 colors - white and red. I'm going to have to bring SPF 1,000 or something.
1 person likes this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
12 Dec 07
Yup, a lot of people will be in hell, the ones who don't believe exactly like some people. Wonder if I should take my tanning lotion? LOL
1 person likes this
@k1tten (2318)
• United States
11 Dec 07
Thank you for saying what many of us have been thinking. I probably would have never had the correct wording to express what many of us have been thinking. It's nice to see so many opinions on here but I get so tired of people being so narrow minded.
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
11 Dec 07
Thank you..mmm..must be the writer in me...LOL..But yes I do get tired of narrow-minded people as well
2 people like this
@susieq223 (3742)
• United States
11 Dec 07
Whew! The witch did come out, didn't she? Okay, I have to respond to this!
I once heard someone say that the main problem with Christianity is some of the Christians! I, too, deplore those who bash others and their beliefs without learning more about those beliefs and those people. I am aware of the many horrible things that have been done in the name of God and in Jesus. I long for all people to understand the message of love that Christ brought, instead of being cruel and judgemental of others.
I do believe the Bible when it quotes Jesus as saying "I am the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) and I think I have the reponsibility to let others know about Him and His Way. I do not have the authority, however, to define that way for others, or to decide who is saved or not. That is God's domain.
I cannot say that I have all the answers, or that even the answers I do have are the correct ones. I only know in my heart that if I go against my own beliefs and understandings, then I am wrong.
There is a prayer, often called the Serenity Prayer that I think sums things up pretty well: "I pray for the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can and the WISDOM to know the DIFFERENCE!" I think many forget the third part and go charging into things that are really God's business, not theirs.
My job is to give the message, live the message and to love--no matter what. Trying to do that takes up all my energy, and I think that is the way it is supposed to be.
I do "have a problem" with wicca and being a witch--it doesn't fit my understanding of the Bible. But don't misunderstand that statement. I certainly don't have a problem with you! (If you don't know it already, I will reiterate that you are very special to me.) I can only say I can't believe that way for me.
I pray that God leads you in the direction that He wants you to go and hope that he gives me the wisdom to know that I don't necessarily have to believe the same way. I think that God speaks to different people in different ways. It may be that I am wrong in this viewpoint and maybe should insist for your soul's sake that you change your ways. But I do pray about it and I read my Bible and I think about the way Jesus behaved toward others. He always rebuked the Pharisees for trying to ram their religious beliefs down everyone's throat. He always treated others with love, compassion and respect--no matter what kind of life they lived or what their beliefs were. He says He is "the Way"; then His behavior is "the way" and that behavior is what I try to follow. I pray if I am wrong in my interpretation, then He will point that out to me and give me the wisdom to change.
Hope this rambly answer makes sense to you and anyone else who reads it. (And I love the Harry Potter books!)
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
11 Dec 07
I find the real irony of all this is that so many of the Christian faith, will bash each other..like DUH? If you really examine religions in general..ALL have great concepts and ideals...dogma...it's unfortunate then how many will stray from the original concepts...so much of religion is man's interpretations of it, and not of course God or Christ---so many of the Christian faith have strayed away from the teachings of Christ, which in my mind is precisely why throughout out history their has been so much bloodshed in the name of Christ which to my mind is kind of an oxymoron--that's what I could never "get"
No, I don't misunderstand your statement there at all about your problem with wiccan and witchcraft. Maybe because you have a more literal sense of the Bible??..especially that line...Exodus 22:18 says, "Suffer not a witch to live." Deuteronomy 18:10 says, "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch."
But if you want to puke a bit...I found this link...and like...yeesh..
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/witches.html
The person is also suggesting book burnings of Harry Potter..but it's this kind of mentality I just can't stand..
I'm sorry but such a viewpoint expressed is so intolerant, so "unlike" Christ's love and compassion he had for people--don't you think so??
Oh, yes, I'm familiar with the Serenity Prayer--St. Francis Of Assisi's Prayer is a great one too:
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy;
O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
Hmmmm..maybe I'm rambling a bit here myself
2 people like this
@mmiller26 (1930)
• Canada
11 Dec 07
I wasn't sure if you're aware, the landover baptist website is a fictional site that serves as a parody of fundamentalist Christianity and the Religious Right. I think they do it too well though, because a lot of people take the site for truth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landover_Baptist_Church
2 people like this
@susieq223 (3742)
• United States
11 Dec 07
St. Francis prayer is one of my favorites and I think it does a beautiful job of expressing what Jesus taught.
Yes, I am pretty literal in my beliefs in the particular scripture you quoted and others like it. That doesn't stop me from learning more about witchcraft, wicca, paganism, etc. There is information and practices in those beliefs that is very helpful to me and much of which is very similar to the things I believe.
2 people like this
@sumofalltears (3988)
• United States
11 Dec 07
Hi there with...lol...hang onto that broom.
Religions to me are just a means by which people can shed blood in the name of a cause and thus gain some sort of power. Needless to say I am not a religious person, I follow no path for redemption...I mean really why would I want to have this all over again it was hard enough first time around.
I live my life according to basic humanitarian principles and let others lead their lives as they please. I understand the principle of removing prayer from school, but I think something could have been put it its place like maybe a moment of silence...thus engendering the concept that religion is ok no matter what path you are on.
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
11 Dec 07
Well I did just get my Nimbus 2000 broom repaired...LOL
One of the reason I was confirmed Protestant rather than Catholic was because my mother was fed up with the Catholic religion and all the lovely memories she had when she went to Catholic school where SHE was shown intolerance by the nuns themselves just because she didn't fit in with the ethnic groups that went at that time which was mainly Irish ..(though she was part)...and German and Italian)...when later on people asked her how come she didn't send me to Catholic school she'd say..."I'll break her legs if she steps foot into a Catholic school" Let's say she was a bit bitter with Catholicism..
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
11 Dec 07
Well, zu I might be getting the Firebolt as a Christmas present, much faster than even the Nimbus 2001
3 people like this
@UnselfishShellfish (1306)
• United States
11 Dec 07
My stepmother flies around on the newly released Nimbus 2007 model with turbo thrust jets. They work great especially on those long cross country trips. You get great gas mileage and there is even a cup holder on this model.
(As you can tell, she and I don't always see eye to eye on a lot of things)
2 people like this
@xfahctor (14118)
• Lancaster, New Hampshire
11 Dec 07
Well pye, as usual, very well spoken and utterl with out any doubt as to how you feel.
I want to add a thought and observation I haven't seen yet in this thread.
Although the notion that removing prayer has converted kids to pagan religions is laughable at best and horridly misguided and damaging at worst, I do feel that the removal of religion from the school in the 60's almost directly led to the decline of our schools and student body.religion, ANY religion. In it's non-extreme state, religion lays moral foundation in our lives that we govern our behavior by. When we took that foundation of morality out of the schools, which are a large part of our childrens lives for 12 or more years, it was replaced by the ideology that morality is not absolute and it is for each their own to form for themselves, ensuing an everything goes, everything acceptable, nothing was wrong anmore as each lives by their own set of morals or in most cases, in a vacume lacking any morality at all.
I am not christian. Let me repeat that, I am NOT christian, however, I think prayer and religion SHOULD be allowed back in the schools, not enforced, but the freedom to practice it should absolutely be there, with out persicution or persuasion, but it absolutely needs to be there.
3 people like this
@cyntrow (8523)
• United States
15 Dec 07
But, xfahctor, prayer is allowed, if it it student endorsed. It just cannot be administrators or teachers who endorse it. My son and his friends have a daily prayer session before the start of school. I AM Christian, but my kids have the right and the responsibility to choose their own path. My son, my gay son, by the way, felt that Christ spoke to him more than the various other paths. He's 16 and he could still find another direction, but that is another story. he and his friends pray daily and NO person has ever tried to stop it. Likewise, if another group or sect were practicing their faith at school, it would be fine. As long as a person in authority is not standing around saying "Good job" and I am great with that. Let the kids decide
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
12 Dec 07
But whose prayer? Yes, it's one thing if a child goes to a private school, and is under one religion, whether Christian, Jewish, Moslem, etc. so then it's perfectly all right for a prayer to begin the school day in that religion is acceptable. But what about public schools where you have a variety of religious groups represented. To say a Christian prayer only would be kind of insulting to the rest who aren't
@mcjeannie (703)
• Philippines
11 Dec 07
Wow, you speak what is in your mind and heart strongly. I admired you for that.I'd love to think that there are people who think and act like you...and I love your phrase in the discussion you posted,"I would truly like to see the day, when we can all really understand and respect each other's religions"...that make a practical sense of life.Come to think...we are endowed with FREEWILL that was in the BIBLE, but our neighbours...CATHOLICS, CHRISTIANS, MOSLEMS or other sects in religious faith when they dominate a certain place, they wanted to IMPOSED their BELIEFS, it should be.Only when religious people would really be a good example to what they BELIEVE, preach and DO, could we be successful in CONVERSION.One would not be going house to house to do this.As people have different level of understanding, tolerance to religiosity from different faith is a challenge to all of us...And who says we, us, they, ours have the right religion?It is by FAITH that we are saved not RELIGIONS.
Very good point of your discussion.Oh as for me, from catholicism,I am converted to a non sectarian Christian religion, but not a big deal to me who I mingle with.I is my choice to be converted, I had noticed I had grown more with the non sectarian religion I have now.
Peace to you...may you find an inner strength and inner peace to whatever path you choose.
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
12 Dec 07
To my mind there is no right or wrong religion. All have some belief in a higher force than us, but just call that Divine entity by a different name, but yes, I do think it's wrong when a person views their religion as the one and only one and have the belief that only they will go to heaven. Sure is going to be a lonely place then for those souls and hell will be crammed full with the rest of us, right?
Non-sectarian religion? Are you by any chance talking about Unity or Science of Mind. Even though I'm on the pagan path, I still like those and even get "Daily Word"
@mcjeannie (703)
• Philippines
14 Dec 07
No it's not.It's more of knowing God's word in the bible with community works.
1 person likes this
@mcjeannie (703)
• Philippines
11 Dec 07
Ooops, on the column"IMPOSED their beliefs", the preceeding words..."it should not be" rather than "it should be".
2 people like this
@JJ4Ever (4693)
• United States
11 Dec 07
Phew! This is a deep one, but a good discussion that I'd definitely like to be a part of. I think my response will make for an interesting answer - lol!
First of all, Pye, good for you in getting everything off your chest. That's the beauty of the Internet and sites such as this. Freedom of speech plays an important role here. I completely agree with you that everyone is entitled to the freedoms that you've displayed here.
Next I would like to say that I am of the Christian faith. Having said that, obviously, you and I don't share the same religious beliefs...right? Maybe not.
Well, first off, the term "Christian" is fairly broad, wouldn't you agree? It could include Methodists, Catholics, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. You get the point.
Thanks to several supposed "Christians," I have already been given a bad name! This is what upsets me. I'm generally a very forgiving, tolerant, and overall laid back person. However, since the moment I mentioned I'm a "Christian," I'm sure you already have a stereotype in your mind of what I'm supposedly like...right? Am I correct?
I would like to overturn that idea for the duration of my response because I'm not like "other" (stereotyped) Christians. I believe what I believe is the "truth" because I have decided to. You believe what you do because seen proofs and reasons as to why you should believe that way. Am I correct? We all have the right to choose our beliefs! Anyone who would try to take that away is most definitely wrong.
The fact that everyone believes his or her "religion" is "the one" that everyone should believe is ineffective. It's not a matter of who's is "the best." It's a matter of having the freedom to choose. You and I probably don't share many of the same religious beliefts, but we can still be friends and "agree to disagree" on religious matters. That doesn't cause me to look down on you and hopefully doesn't cause you to look down on me. We are alike in that we enjoy exercising our freedom!
Be proud of what you believe. It's not important about who's right, but about what's right. If you believe your religion is right, more power to you!
You should enjoy what you believe also. Ultimately, everyone is looking for contentment, harmony, and peace. To look down on you because you voiced your opinion would be wrong of me or any other individual.
Thank you for sharing and have fun flying around on your broom this holiday season! (LOL)
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
12 Dec 07
It's not necessarily true that I don't share your beliefs. My father was Methodist, my mother Catholic, I was baptized Catholic, confirmed Protestant (Episcopalian), my great-grandmother was the one that got us involved with Unity and Science of Mind. So I do have a well rounded Christian viewpoint as well, and I haven't completely abandoned my Christian ideals, but you might say I expanded my spiritual awareness by deciding to follow the pagan/wiccan path. So no qualms at all about Christianity to begin with, but want to crawl under a rock when someone of any religion wants to cram their beliefs down my throat or who have a very narrow and closed minded attitude that their religion is the ONLY one and only they are going to heaven while the rest of us will go to hell. So I guess hell is going to be very crowded. LOL.
Uh, yes, I'll be flying on my broom with Santa Claus on Christmas Eve. hehee
@cyntrow (8523)
• United States
12 Dec 07
I responded to that discussion as well. I responded because it annoys the crap out of me when the bible worshippers seek to speak for all who call themselves Christian. I call myself Christian because I strive to follow the teachings of Christ. I think he was a great man who respected everyone except those who were harming mankind. I do believe in his divine nature, but that is my belief. People like the poster that you refer to are so encompassed in hatred and ignorance that they would probably be the ones that killed Jesus to begin with.
There was a time in my life when I refused to call myself Christian, because of people like this. Then I turned around. I refuse to let these people take my religion from me.
Real Christians are not tolerant. We are accepting. We seek knowledge and we do not judge based upon mythi and inuendo. We don't judge or generalize. We see every person as an individual.
One of my points in the post of which you speak, is that Pagans do not recruit. Every pagan I have ever spoken too speaks of finding one's own path. They don't force their faith on anyone. How many Bible worshipers can say the same? As I said in the post, who can find fault in a sect or group of sects that speak of doing no harm? How could that be bad? It can't. Common sense.
2 people like this
@cyntrow (8523)
• United States
12 Dec 07
I totally dig that and believe that. If jesus were around today, it would be the religious reich, i mean right, that would be crucifying him. I have also found the greatest amount of respect for his teachings among my pagan friends. Too many Christians cannot even recite what he has said. "What, Paul didn't say it???" Just makes me shake my head. I despise Bible worshipers.
My snarky comment about suspense and her being a closet wizard was just being snarky. I've had so many run ins with her about my gay rights stance, but the old fart doesnt have the balls to back up her claims. I found her discussion and this one and I jumped on the possibility of bringing her out of the closet, so to speak.
2 people like this
@cyntrow (8523)
• United States
15 Dec 07
If suddenly the fog clears and her mind opens, I would welcome that. I just don't think it will happen. The woman will go to her grave beliveing she is right. Mores the pity. I do attempt to challenge her, but I pity her and all like her. Robots are such sad creatures.
My biggest problem with her is that she claims to speak for all Christians. SHE does NOT speak for me; or for the majority of us, from what I've come to understand. But the Loudest voices get the press. That's what pis$es me off. I don't want a bigoted, closed minded person speaking for me.
@sigma77 (5383)
• United States
11 Dec 07
Yikes, you don't pull no punches. I was raised a Catholic and as far as I remember they believed that they were the one true religion. I no longer practice any religion other than to acknowledge my creator, whoever that may be. I agree that many religions have been the cause of wars and killings and murders on one side while spewing the "love they neighbor" theme on the other side. I have no interest in Harry Potter or in witchcraft. That does not mean I condemn them. I have nothing against any religion or anyone practicing any form or religious belief system. The only thing that drives me bonkers is when people try to force their beliefs on me or convert me to their religion. I believe in a God of some sort that is eternal and somehow spiritually connected to me. I believe in the true goodness of all of creation, including man and woman. It seems to me this is exactly the kind of disharmony religions cause; that of trying to force beliefs on another. You make some good points and that last sentence about being out of the broom closet is a classic.
2 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
11 Dec 07
I guess I should stop being so shy, right? I'm fine with anyone's religion, couldn't care if a person wanted to worship a goldfish for all I care, but like you I don't appreciate someone trying to cram their religion down my throat with the idea that it's the ONLY religion, or the attitude I'm right, your wrong, which is what this person was doing, and yes, it's precisely this kind of attitude that has created so many wars
@LittleMel (8742)
• Canada
11 Dec 07
No I don't care what others religion is as long as they don't bash mine. but in a way they can't bash me because I don't belong to any religion anymore. I was baptized catholic and I knew some moslems who despised us and called us pigs because we are not moslems. For a long time I hated them for what they did to my family. Then I got married and my husband has no religion whatsoever and he is the most reliable and loving person. I realized that religion alone doesn't make a person good, it's in the person's upbringing and choice to do good. This is the main reason I stay away from religion.
But to put things straight, pye, Hitler was no follower of Christ, therefore he couldn't be called Christian. He might have been baptized as such, but if you read Mein Kampf you will know there is no Christianity in him. I've heard Christians bashing Catholics, which is strange we worship the same God. but now I don't allow these things to bother me anymore. You are my friend and the person you spoke about (yes I know which one) is also my friend, this is all that matters. Happy Holidays!
@LittleMel (8742)
• Canada
12 Dec 07
no Hitler wasn't. I don't know Neo Nazi though.
I just read her discussions and I did read that she mentioned animals do not have intelligence. I think animals do have intelligence and soul, they just don't have the same intelligence as we have but they have it.
2 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
12 Dec 07
I just can't help thinking though that this person is very misguided in her beliefs. She's not only attacking religious beliefs but what really got me going too, is that she firmly believes that God gave mankind intelligence and souls, that animals have no souls. That should get animal lovers on her case. A friend of mine said, that even though she's spewing facts from the Bible that she takes as literal truth, considers that for all her boasting of being a Christian is more like a neo-nazi in her beliefs, for as you said, Hitler wasn't Christian?
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@artemis432 (7474)
• Abernathy, Texas
15 Dec 07
Not only do they have intelligence but they have reasoning power too - which she says they didn't. I pointed out that her grandchild who is mentally handicapped may not so maybe she doesn't have a soul (not that I believe that).
@anniepa (27955)
• United States
11 Dec 07
Bless you, Pye, for putting into words so much that I wanted to say but couldn't seem to be able to do so! You've so obviously done your homework so much more than I ever have; the "other" poster stated she was a reader but you're the one who really has read and researched on the history of all religions and not just what the Bible thumpers want you to read! I'm sorry, I didn't say that to offend anyone, many if not most true Christians are wonderful and tolerant people. I think "true" Christians have to e if they really believe in following Jesus's teachings. Anyway, thanks for saying what so many of us were thinking. I may not be fully versed on the Bible and I haven't gone to church for years but I was raised to be a good person. Also, although my grandkids haven't been to church as much as some would say they should they have also been taught right from wrong. I see NO good reason why we can't all just get along!
Annie
2 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
12 Dec 07
The thing is, she takes the bible as literal truth, and has even gone on a spell there saying she doesn't believe in evolution or that the world in millions of years old. Uh, the universe is billions of years old. Think she believes that animals have no souls or are intelligent. I never met a more intolerant, narrow and closed minded person as the one that "inspired" me to start this discussion. I actually feel sorry for her. She rattles on how she is a Christian, but I've never come across a more un-Christian Christian in my life! To be honest. LOL. I actually thought most of the Bible was a bore read. All those begats.
@mmiller26 (1930)
• Canada
11 Dec 07
Great job, Pye. You brought up and explained a lot of the things I touched on in my post to her last night, and all of that seemed to go right over her head. The longer I tried to debate with her, the less sense she was making.
It would be nice if the world adopted a "I'll believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe, and everybody can be happy" attitude. Why do we feel the need to convert? Why do we feel the need to tell other people that they're going to burn in the furies of hell for all eternity because they don't live a certain way or believe what we believe? It's garbage. And I'm pretty sure Jesus would have been pretty pissed off at the holier-than-thou attitude of a lot of some Christians. I've been one of those people who have said that I don't have a problem with God, it's Christians I can't stand, and that's because I've come across too many hate-filled, intolerant, self-righteous people whose hearts are so filled with hatred, fear and bigotry that they can't see the light. Jesus was about love, not hatred. Jesus was about tolerance, not bigotry. Jesus is supposed to symbolize everything that man should aspire to be, but so many people are caught up in the fire and brimstone aspect of the bible that they can't see that, and it makes me sad. I don't consider myself Christian. I don't consider myself to be a follower of any organized religion, because the politics of it aren't to my liking. I consider myself to be a child of god, or whatever created this world (and that includes nature). I respect my fellow man, I respect my environment, and even if the only thing I have to look forward to after my life ends is that my body is recycled back into the earth to create new life, I'm happy with that.
2 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
11 Dec 07
Wow--you really worded things so great here yourself! :)
Yes, it seems whatever one says to her goes over her head as she's firmly convinced her way is the right and only way....Oh that's funny...yes Christ would have been pissed off at the attitudes of some "Christians" as many of the beliefs go against what he taught, especially "love thy neighbor" I think when people come across someone with the beliefs and attitudes that the poster had, is what makes people think all Christians believe like that, and of course they don't
1 person likes this
@devilsangel (1817)
• United States
11 Dec 07
It drives me nuts when others try and force their religous beliefs upon me and mine. I do think however, that if you attend a religious type school, ie.. Catholic,Christian, or Mormon based schools then you shouldn't expect them to change their policy to fit you. If you knowingly attend a religious school then expect to hear about their god, plain and simple. Now if you're going to public school or a non-religious school then no I don't think it is appropriate to push religion or god onto a student. I myself am Pagan and frankly couldn't give a flying fk what others thought of it. Its my choice and my path and if they have issues with it tough. I don't go to their churches and tell them what to preach so they have no right to come to my home and tell me how to believe.
2 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
12 Dec 07
The poster of the discussion that inspired mine thinks that the removal of prayer in schools, even private schools is what is causing people to change into pagans or wiccans. Such nonsense, wouldn't you agree?
1 person likes this
@devilsangel (1817)
• United States
12 Dec 07
I saw the discussion you're talking about and I had to refrain from responding because I don't think there's enough symbols on my keyoard to censor what I'd have to say to them.
1 person likes this