State Unfairly Taking Away Lottery Winnings Away From People
By pyewacket
@pyewacket (43903)
United States
February 15, 2008 3:32pm CST
I was so outraged when I heard about this on last night's news. It seems one policy of the NY State Lottery (and I suppose elsewhere too) is that if a poor person who had in the past received Public Assistance, such as Welfare, and/or did actually work for those benefits, if that person wins any money from the Lottery, the person is forced to give up that money.
One such case is of Walter Carver, a Vietnam Vet, who won $10,000 with one of those scratch off Lotto game cards. When he went to claim the money, the "agent" said there was a red flag on the winnings...Here's more of the story.
(Quote)
..." It's called lottery intercept, and it's a way for New York to collect millions owed from those on public assistance.
It sounds like a good way to collect on debt, but our investigation has found thousands of poor people who worked for their welfare checks now having to hand over their winnings to the state.
"I said thank God," Walter Carver said. "That's good. I'm happy."
Carver remembers the thrill of winning $10,000 in an instant scratch-off lottery game. But the thrill was gone minutes after he tried to claim his winnings.
"I heard a little giggle, and the clerk said wait a minute, there's a little red flag here," he said. "She says, wait a minute, were you on public assistance? I say yes. I says not public assistance, work. I worked for that."
It did not matter that Carver worked 36 hours a week cleaning the floors on the Staten Island Ferry in exchange for a welfare check of $220 a month. The state still claimed half of his lottery winnings, as payback for the public assistance he received from 1997 to 2000.
"I worked for services rendered," he said. "I worked, I put in my day's work. I can't see how they can ask for it again."
Carver isn't alone. Our investigation has found that, in the last five years, the state has intercepted nearly 24,000 lottery winners who were welfare recipients, taking from them more than $22 million even though most had to work for their welfare checks.
"To receive your benefits, you must show up at a work site," Carver said. "And if you missed, the benefits would be put on hold. You didn't get paid."
So now, this former sergeant in the Vietnam War has decided to fight back. He's hired an attorney to try and reclaim his lottery winnings, on the grounds that he worked for his welfare and doesn't owe the state a dime. One law professor agrees.
"The benefits he received during the years he was doing his workfare assignment have the legal status of wages earned," CUNY law professor Steve Loffredo said. "So the state could not, on that theory, lawfully turn around now and take those wages away from him."
The Office of Temporary and Disability Assistance declined an interview for this story, but a spokesman there says they are just following state law, which requires that anyone who has received public assistance and wins the lottery handover half their winnings as reimbursement to the state. But some legal experts we spoke to believe the policy violates labor laws.
"It would have the effect of retroactively compelling him work without compensation, which is a violation of federal and state minimum wage laws," Loffredo said.
Carver's case raises serious questions about fairness and civility. A state lures the poor to gamble on a dream, and when those who have been on workfare are lucky enough to win, the state steps in to take the dream away.
Hoffer: "Do you think that the state has a right to that money?" Carver: "No, not in my situation and thousands of other people out there." Hoffer: "Because?" Carver: "Because we worked for our benefits."
After Carver paid the state and the taxes, he was left with a little more than $1,000 from his $10,000 lottery winnings...."
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/investigators&id=5958940
Carver intends to legally fight this stupidity and I think rightfully so...in my mind this is so unfair...it wasn't as if Carver was receiving Public Assistance benefits without doing any work for those benefits
I mean how would you feel, if at sometime you won a lottery, and could really, really use the money, but then find out, that because at one time in your life you receive some kind of badly needed benefits to help you out, you couldn't have that money...I would think by winning some Lottery it could then allow the person to get off those benefits...what do you think?
21 people like this
53 responses
@cynicalandoutspoken (4725)
• United States
15 Feb 08
I agree it is unfair as well. Especially when you take into consideration how much Uncle Sam was going to take out of his winnings.
I guess they figure if you have enough money to waste it on playing the lottery you can afford to pay back what was given to you but since this guy worked 36 hours a week for that pathetic check from the system I say he did his time and he should be allowed to keep what he won.
6 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
15 Feb 08
Yes, it wasn't like the guy was freeloading and sitting on his butt doing nothing except collect Public Assistance, he was actually working for his benefits
3 people like this
@p1kef1sh (45681)
•
15 Feb 08
This seems incredibly unfair. I don't understand the US tax or benefits situation but I would have thought that Public Assistance was not a loan but payment. In return you have to perform some normally menial work, like washing floors. I would have thought that NYC was getting it's cake and eating it. I am all for reducing tax abuse, but this seems like punishment.
4 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
15 Feb 08
That's exactly what the guy was doing, he WAS working for his benefits at a very menial task, but he still was working for it...so it is so unfair
2 people like this
@NanaL41 (32)
• United States
16 Feb 08
Well, that's the government for you. How can they
get by with paying the man less than minimum wage
for the 35 hrs a week that he works? And then take
more money from him.
He was a Viet Nam veteran!!! He has been treated like
a non person since he went to fight for this country,
made to work for $1.00 an hr (do the math)and then
they take more away from him.
Just who are the people that are being treated so
badly by their governments? The Americans, that's who. While all the politicians get richer and richer, how can that be, when they are "serving
their country?" They are serving themselves and
living off the American people. Wake up America!!!!
1 person likes this
@Darkwing (21583)
•
15 Feb 08
I would be absolutely livid, and they wouldn't hold me back, either. How can they call wages earned from the State, "benefits". They aren't benefits at all, they're wages earned for doing a good day's work. Whatever is all this about?
Go Mr. Carver, you have the whole Nation's full backing I would think, and I hope you retrieve your money in full. You're entitled to it, as you didn't receive any "benefits" whatsoever. You were entitled to wages for the work you did, whomever might have paid them to you. Good Luck!
Brightest Blessings, Pye, my dear friend.
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
15 Feb 08
I really hopes he can get that money back, why shouldn't he be allowed to keep his winnings after all if anyone could use it,it's sure him
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
16 Feb 08
Why of course I'll keep my eyes glued to this case..I'd like to hear if that guy gets his money back
2 people like this
@Aussies2007 (5336)
• Australia
17 Feb 08
This would have to be one of the most unfair and stupidiest law I have ever heard of.
Did someone say that America was the land of the free?
Not only this would not happen in Australia... but we don't pay taxes on lottery wins.
@Aussies2007 (5336)
• Australia
18 Feb 08
I don't know what they do in other countries...
But in Australia... it is done differently. The government still get his cut of the money. But they take their commission or percentage from the total bidding... before issuing the prize money.
Which mean that the prize money in Australia is not as big as in the United States.
But by the same token... when people buy a ticket in a one million dollars lottery... they know that if they win... they will get a million... tax free.
It is the same if you win money in a TV show... it is tax free. Same if you win money gambling in a casino or anywhere else.
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
17 Feb 08
I didn't know that in Australia one did have to pay taxes on lottery wins...is that only in Australia or elsewhere too? If it's a case that it's only America that does that, then it's further case of bleeding us dry of money
2 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
18 Feb 08
Maybe I should move to Australia..LOL
The rules in most countries seems to be so different...I remember hearing for instance if one is a writer in Ireland one doesn't have to pay taxes period
2 people like this
@Benjaminna (300)
• United States
17 Feb 08
People seem to forget that their are two sides to every story. This story only tells his side. Reality check - no one can live off of $220 a month. At least not with some other kind of assistant or help. Now, what if he was receiving public housing on top of his whopping $220 a month? Who do you think pays for the public housing? The state, the goverment, you, me and other working class tax paying citizens? And people think that money should be paid back?
Did this man have children? Was he behind and not paying child support. Maybe it was easier for him to 'work' for $220 a month so he didn't have to pay child support. Do you think that is fair to his wife? Kids? What if his wife needed assistance to help support the children because of his irresponsibility. That would still fall back on him.
The states and governments money weighs more than what yours or my money dose because it takes more paper work, time, wages, effort and energy to get that money to the people seeking assistance. If he was in fact doing 'workfare', that's where all his 'income' was being eaten up.
3 people like this
@Benjaminna (300)
• United States
18 Feb 08
I'm not presuming anything - I'm just giving some 'what ifs'. Like I said there are two sides to every story. I'm not saying this is his side, just giving another side.
I don't understand why everyone is always out to help anyone that needs assistance but then as soon as it's time to pay it back no one wants to.
I understand that he's a Vietnam Vet - I respect that. But that dosn't excuse him from the rules everyone else has to abide by and if he is able to work 36 hours a week mopping floors and cleaning, sounds like he should have been able to work else where for a lot more money. I mean 36 hours is practacly a full time job.
I personally don't think he would have been able to get off assistance with 10 grand -- at least not for very long.
I'm really not reading into anything -- I'm just saying there are two sides to everything. Unfortunately either way, it's the ones who do take advantage of the system that mess it up and make it harder for everyone else.
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
17 Feb 08
Whoa! Wait a minute!
You seem to be making an awful lot of presumptions and scenarios here about this man. From what I gather he is a disabled Vietnam veteran, and yes, he might have also been getting some kind of disability and veterans benefits, but if you know anything about benefits of either kind you know they are hardly livable..I know as I'm on disability benefits myself ..and at $724 a month that is hardly livable either, by the time I pay all my bills I have about $20 "extra" cash money for the month..he no doubt was getting the "extra" welfare benefits to further help him out but he WAS working for those benefits.
Think you're reading too much into what kind of person he is...The fact is, by having won that money and being able to keep it..he could have finally gotten off Public Assistance...Yes, maybe many people do abuse the system, but then there are many of us who genuinely need the money....Heck I would try to work some kind of part time job myself if I could even with my disability, but the rule is I couldn't earn more than $85 per month without my benefits being cut off...so I sure could stand to win the lottery myself and tell SSA to kiss my grits!
2 people like this
@CatsandDogs (13963)
• United States
15 Feb 08
I lived in NY for almost a year and hated every minute of it and wouldn't go back if it were the last piece of land left and all others were under water!! NY laws are so @ss backwards that it isn't funny.
Did you know that when a husband and wife divorce and if she can't find a job, the exhusband has to support her till she's able to find a job where she can support herself? Yup. It's true. There was one case that was on TV where this couple divorced and the woman had a good job but lost it somehow and was living on the streets. Ten years later she ran into a lawyer who said she could get benefits from her exhusband, who, mind you was rich, so this lawyer took up her case and they won! Now I think that is wrong. Once divorced they should go separate ways especially when she was able to support herself when the divorce was final and even more so when it's 10 years down the road! Now I'm NOT against alimony for one could have been an abuser or a cheater so then one should pay alimony but other than that, no I don't think it should apply.
4 people like this
@Savvynlady (3684)
• United States
16 Feb 08
I was born in NY and lived there until I was 15; I have considered moving back up there since the earning potential is greater, but to me, that wasn't right. It isn't like there aren't jobs up there, there are. If she did have a setback seems to me, she should have gotten some help until she got back on her feet and if she had a good job, she should have provided for when she didn't have it. this is a bit much there.
1 person likes this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
15 Feb 08
I didn't know about that..gee, you know more about NY laws than I do and I live in NY..LOL...No that is unfair..unless the divorce clearly had alimony in the proceedings then it shouldn't be up to the ex husband (or wife) to give alimony or some kind of financial support
2 people like this
@KrauseHome (36448)
• United States
15 Feb 08
Wow!! This is unreal, and in my opinion, not fair at all. How can they truly take away his Winnings like this? If he had to work in order to get his Welfare check they should have no right over that money, and say he owed 1/2 of it as payback. I wish every State would make more people work for their checks like this instead of just hand out and usually without really checking to see if a person is telling the Truth or not.
What is even worse, is he is a Vietnam war Vet. He served and fought for our country, and look what he gets. In my Honest opinion, I think he has a right to fight this, and I hope something Good comes from this. They need to rethink their thinking on this one for sure.
3 people like this
@CinderInMySoul (4717)
• United States
16 Feb 08
the fact that he is a Vietnam Vet seems to make it a double slap in the face doesnt it?
ive known a few ppl that dont do anything but keep having more kids to get more welfare benefits!
THEY EAT BETTER THAN MY FAMILY DOES! im talking steaks every week and ive seen her getting LOBSTER!
those kinds of ppl i can totally agree with the state getting some of the money back..but NOT when they WORK for it! even if they are stamping the back of someones hand all day for their weekly benefits, they still worked!
1 person likes this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
15 Feb 08
You gave a good point there about his being a Vietnam vet...veterans benefits are the worse...the govt is so easy to put our peoples lives in danger and fight in some war then get nothing when they return
1 person likes this
@GardenGerty (160708)
• United States
16 Feb 08
I do not do the lottery, but I even find this to be very unfair. I hope he finds a lawyer who can help him straighten it out, however, he will then owe the lawyer. So how does this work? If he were to win the lottery again, would they take half, again? I do not like this at all.
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
16 Feb 08
well no doubt if he gets a lawyer he could probably get Legal Aid which is free to those under a certain income...and yes, if he won the lottery again he probably have to pay the state at least half..
1 person likes this
@GnosticGoddess (5626)
• United States
17 Feb 08
That's wild!!
I think if you've paid in then you shouldn't have to pay back!
I could also understand it if it was like a million dollars or more or something! Because taking that small amount of money (yeah I know it's not small!) away is only going to help that person nor potentially keep them from coming back to the aid!
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
17 Feb 08
Yes, if anyone could have used that money it was him and yes could've have given him the chance to get off assistance.
3 people like this
@djoby2005 (75)
• Romania
15 Feb 08
I can't believe this happens. Lottery is supposed to be a chance game where a lot of people buy tickets with random numbers and whoever gets the wining number wins. there shouldn't be any discrimination, yes thats what it is discrimination, its somekind of rasism. "Oh you won? Congratulations but you know, we can't give you the money because you're poor.." WTF Man...
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
15 Feb 08
Yes, it is discrimination..I sure hope he manages to win his case and get the money back
2 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
15 Feb 08
I'm on SSI myself...heck I wouldn't mind playing those lotto things myself, but don't want to waste the money...I mean with me it's a balance act...do I spend some of my SSI benefit money on lottos with the likelihood of NOT winning or do I buy my cats cat food....no brainer there...
2 people like this
@Modestah (11179)
• United States
15 Feb 08
the fact that he worked for his benefits leads me to agree - the state had no right to the portion of winnings - they've already gotten their payback via his labor... and a good bargain at that!
$220 divided by 36 hrs comes out to $6.11 an hour for strenuous labor.
now, if the public assistance was not a work share program or if it was to aide in paying off a hospital debt or some sort of thing, then yes - I can see where your coming into a lump of money - some should be paid back.
I wonder out of that 5000 they claimed how much of it had to be allotted to red tape and payout to collect it.
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
15 Feb 08
Yeah, the govt certainly got a "bargain" with his working at slave labor wages...hope he gets that money back
2 people like this
@Benjaminna (300)
• United States
17 Feb 08
36 hours a week for $220 a month? Maybe he should have gone out and found a real job. There is no way I would work that many hours for that amount of pay. If he in fact did 'work'.
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
17 Feb 08
I have my response underneath to this
2 people like this
@ghostlzy007 (157)
• China
17 Feb 08
That's unblievable. Do we live in the 21st century? I think people with poor life in NY should fight against this unfairness.
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
18 Feb 08
I think he is going to try and fight this unfairness. Hope he wins and gets the money back
2 people like this
@ghostlzy007 (157)
• China
18 Feb 08
I hope he is not alone. If the government can do this to him, they can do this to everyone. I think before this happen, everyone should get together and do something.
3 people like this
@owlwings (43910)
• Cambridge, England
16 Feb 08
I'm not sure that I fully understand the situation in NY State. I can only say that, here in the UK, everyone who is working has about 11% deducted from their monthly paycheck (after allowances) as National Insurance. This funds two things: The National Health Service, under which one receives free medical treatment and a subsidy for prescriptions and dental treatment, and the State Pension. If one has not worked enough to be fully up to date with National Insurance payments, there is never any bill for past medical treatment but one may receive a lower pension. There is NO communication between the National Insurance and the National Lottery (which is run under license by a separate company, anyway), nor is there any information given to the state department that handles Premium Bonds (a savings scheme where the interest is paid in prizes ranging from £50 to £1m).
I would regard it as gross invasion of privacy if such were the case. I believe that the Tax department does get to know of Premium Bond and possibly larger National Lottery winnings (but I am not sure). Neither of these winnings are taxable, in any case.
This story is a very potent indication that, in the States, you have a very much more 'Big Brother Is Watching You' society than we have here in the UK. Your Social Security # is a very dangerous thing by which the State (and Federal Government) has you by the short and curlies. You, presumably, have to give that number if you want to collect lottery winnings, open a bank account or claim any benefit. Do you also have to provide it when buying (or even renting) property?
Our NI#, on the other hand, is very much more limited in its scope! It is only required by employers and when receiving one's state pension. I believe that my medical records may also hold it but I certainly wouldn't need it to qualify for A & E treatment (and nor would you, as a US citizen, be asked for your eligibility - at least, you would be treated first and only asked later about insurance or billing if the treatment involved a hospital stay). I have heard scary stories that, in some States, paramedics have required insurance papers before admitting someone to hospital or even giving anything but the barest minimum care!
I think that every American should think very seriously about voting in a President and government which is committed to National Health Care. I see many questions here and on Yahoo Answers which indicate that many people cannot or are reluctant to go to their doctor in the US because they can't afford to. Not only do these minor sicknesses add up to a state of low health, the worry of not knowing what is really wrong (and in some cases there is nothing wrong) actually makes people sick!
2 people like this
@Savvynlady (3684)
• United States
16 Feb 08
I don't know you, but you make some valid points and I for one appreciate what you said. especially that short and curlies remark. love it.
1 person likes this
@suspenseful (40193)
• Canada
15 Feb 08
If you are sitting on your behind and receiving welfare, I think the state has the right to part of the winnings. However, if the person had to work to receive welfare, he should be permitted to keep the winnings since it also includes monies he would have received had he got a comparable job as if not on welfare. Since he was working for less than minimum wages, in other words as slave labor, he should prevail and win.
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
15 Feb 08
Thank you suspenseful, couldn't agree with you more..also I think it's an added kick in the face to him that he is a Vietnam vet..veterans benefits are a joke, and no doubt is the reason he needed the welfare benefits to begin with
2 people like this
@LittleMel (8742)
• Canada
17 Feb 08
I can see why he is upset. he said he works for it, so this earning is his, and so is the lottery ticket that he buys with his earning. if he works and they pay, what exactly they want him to pay back?
Over here there was a time I worked and therefore payment for employment insurance was taken off my pay check. then I was laid off and applied for the insurance (that I have paid for when I worked) the govt staffs were looking at me as if I was lazy and didn't want to work. I took brochures about organizations that provide courses for immigrants looking for a job in Canada and went to one of them - guess what the govt called and said I wouldn't get my insurance if I took this course. If they don't want me to take this course, this means they don't want me to find work whereas my insurance only covered short period of time because I was new in this country at the time. So why place the brochures in govt office if they don't want people to sign up for it? They can't make companies hire people if there is no vacancy, but they can't stop people from trying to get a job after all they will stop the insurance if they find out we don't look for a job anyway. It's weird. I don't know regulations now and can't care less about it. I only work temp anyway so no more paying into insurance that will give me a lot of hassles to get it anyway. Might as well I put all the money I work for for myself.
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
17 Feb 08
Crap, that is so unfair, to put it mildly...here you were paying into insurance and then you could get your OWN money back? Sounds like the red-tape one goes through with governments is universal and not just here in America--what a rip-off
1 person likes this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
17 Feb 08
Oopps..meant couldn't get your money back. It's like the dumb rule for SSI benefits...technically speaking I would love to at least work part time to make a little extra money coming in, as my benefits aren't exactly livalbe..but if I earned more than $85 a month my benefits would be cut....
1 person likes this
@anniepa (27955)
• United States
18 Feb 08
That is ridiculous and should be thrown out in a heartbeat! To have to work 36 hours a week for $220/month should be illegal to start with - or should I say, it IS illegal! My heart really goes out to this poor guy! What a shame to think you've won all that money and I can imagine the relief and excitement he felt then to have this happen. Disgusting!
Annie
2 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
19 Feb 08
I agree it totally is disgusting ..with that money he won he could have told them at that job to take it and shove it
1 person likes this
@morgandrake (2136)
• United States
15 Feb 08
Isn't it bad enough that the lottery is a hidden tax? Yes, I think that the lottery is a tax. But to seize winnings from welfare receiptents, that is just wrong in my opinion. The whole point of playing the lottery is to get lucky and get off of welfare, not to be forced to remain on it because the welfare system is ran by a bunch of politicians. And you know the law was created by politicians trying to look good.
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
16 Feb 08
I think that is perhaps everyone's dream that if they play the lotto and are receiving benefits that if they win can finally get off them...Sort of my stuck case..I'm on SSI---I would love to find some kind of part time work, but if I make more than $85 a month my benefits will be affected...excuse me...$85.00? What century are these agencies living in? I'd also probably be in the same boat..if I won extra money and SSI got wind of it, my benefits would stop...now of course if I won a few million then I could tell SSA to kiss my grits...LOL
2 people like this
@morgandrake (2136)
• United States
16 Feb 08
It becomes an all or nothing game with that low amount. I am not sure what century that they come up with that low number from, but today it is nowhere close to what you need to make in order to remain off the streets. The system, quite honestly, is broken.
2 people like this
@dreamy1 (3811)
• United States
16 Feb 08
The lottery is nothing more than a tax on the poor. Who plays the lottery? Bill Gates? No it's poor people. They are just giving back the money that tax payers used to support them. On one hand it's unfair they should only take back the amount of money they took out of the system. So if they do win does that mean they will get off public assistance? Probably not. There's lots of people who abuse the system unfortunately there's no way to tell who are the bad apples. I can understand why they are doing it and I can't say I disagree. There's plenty of people who are collecting public assistance that shouldn't be. They need to go after those people for sure.
2 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
16 Feb 08
I happen to be on SSI benefits, and all I know if I won really big mega bucks from a lottery I would love to tell SSA to kiss my grits...LOL It's like once one is on benefits it's hard to get off. Even though I have a disability I think I could be capable of at least working part time...problem...if I earn more than $85 a month my benefits would be affected...so, bottom line I don't work. So I think that guy who won the $10,000 could have benefited from that money and gotten off Public Assistance. Yes, there are a lot of people who abuse the system...I don't think he was one of them though..being a Vietnam Vet, veterans benefits are practically nothing which is why he probably sought out PA to begin with
1 person likes this
@dreamy1 (3811)
• United States
16 Feb 08
I guess if you're on assistance it's best not to even play the lottery because it's only going to be taken away from you. It's bad for those who really need it because that money could help them. Just don't play the lottery or get a trusted friend to say they won instead then you can give them a cut of the money.
2 people like this