Are you 'money smart'? And, should we feel badly for people who are not?
By ladyluna
@ladyluna (7004)
United States
February 22, 2008 7:42am CST
Good morning All,
Should we feel badly for the man and wife referenced in the below article? (It's a short article.)
http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2008/02/19/more_people_tap_401k_accounts_for_cash/
I guess what I'm really asking is: Do you live within your means?
This California couple have just withdrawn $10,000 from their 401K (despite the hefty penalty for early withdrawal) because they say that they can't make ends meet.
Although, if one reads further into the story we learn: That they make a decent annual income. Last April they bought a new BMWi35 car ($550/month pymt.), and that American Express reduced the limits on their three credit cards, because they have been digging themselves into a pit of debt.
This story represents an important scenario that we should all be pondering.
- Do we make wise financial decisions?
- And, how do our personal financial decisions affect the nation as a whole?
Here is a quote from the story which offers a dire warning:
"People who take out a loan or withdrawal are adding to a looming retirement crisis over the next 30 to 40 years," said Eric Levy, a partner at global consulting firm Mercer. "And what implications will that have (for) our economy?"....
Administrators say consumers are using retirement savings to pay for unmanageable mortgages, maxed-out credit cards, and costly utilities and groceries."
So, what do you think?
3 people like this
12 responses
@Destiny007 (5805)
• United States
22 Feb 08
Frankly, this couple are very foolish in their lifestyle.
They obviously cannot manage their money, yet he is an account executive?
That trucking firm needs to get some better help.
Even though he is 40, he is gambling on his future in a big way because any number of things can happen to derail his plans.
I thought I had things well in hand too... until I became disabled at 47 and went through that economic nightmare of long term zero income. My work insurance covered Long Term Disability but it expired after 2 years, and it was another 18 months before I won my SSA battle.
When I see people saying that they can make it on minimum wage or whatever I know it is because they can't manage their money.
I lived on nothing more than food stamps and the generosity of my mother and then my wifes mother until things got worked out... otherwise we would have been on the street. Fortunately they both had places for us to stay, one and old trailer and the other an old house... they were cold and drafty, but it was a place to live and we were very glad to have it.
The whole "I can't make it" thing is nothing more than a lousy excuse for unwise decisions, and a lack of planning.
2 people like this
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
22 Feb 08
Hello Destiny,
I was hoping that you would find your way to this discussion. I posted this topic because of another discussion that loosely crossed paths with this one. You know which, I'm sure.
I so respect your ability to recognize that anyone can live within their means, if they just buckle down, and make wiser financial decisions.
What ever happened to people focusing on building a nest egg? Or, having real savings accounts? "Rainy Day" funds"? Reserves in the mattress? Cash in the coffee can? Vacation Funds or Christmas Clubs?
How the heck did society ever end up relying so heavily on money that we don't have (credit) instead of money that we do have? Geesh, I'm a huge fan of optimism, but only to the point of reason. It must be balanced with pragmatism!
You give us the most understandable example of how this might occur -- physical/health hardship. Yet, you re-adjusted your focus to living within your means. You have my deepest respect for this!
I wish more folks would learn from your example!
@titaniumsoul (1191)
• Singapore
26 Feb 08
We should not feel bad for the people who are not money smart, because they should suffer for their own mistakes when making financial decisions. However, we cannot totally blame the couple, because the living cost is rising everywhere in this world, even I am affected too. In my country, despite the entrance of foreign talents for work and becoming permanent residents, our necessity products and services such as transport, poultries, groceries and others are increasing in prices. My resolution is paid for the things that are necessary and part of the money save it for future. Frankly speaking, it is hard to save money nowadays, whenever I saw my bank account, the withdrawal column has more entries than deposit column. There is nothing I can do except working, working and working for that meager salary and try to save bits by bits. People who have retirement savings should plan how to use it, use lesser credit cards, buy cheaper groceries, use less utilities and try to avoid from getting into bank loans are ways to cut down costs incurred. If people do not cut down on costs, how are they going to survive in the future? In future, I think the salary that we get is insufficient for survival so be prepared for it. You may want to reply get a job which is paying high salary, well it is easier said than done.
1 person likes this
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
27 Feb 08
Hello Titaniumsoul,
You're right in pointing out that getting a higher paying job isn't always easy. There is much competition for the best jobs. So, we always need to commit ourselves to making ourselves 'more marketable'. Meaning, endeavoring to improve ourselves with respect to Business skills and acumen.
You're also correct about the cost of living being on the rise. Though, this is a 'constant' in most economies. So, I appreciate how you have targeted specific cost saving actions that we can pursue to keep our debits from exceeding our credits. Very good points, my friend!
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
28 Feb 08
Hello Titaniumsoul,
I've never had difficulty understanding your English. Rather, you've consistently demonstrated an admirable commitment to expressing yourself in other than your native language.
And yes you're right. We're all affected by inflation. For example, I put fuel in my automobile yesterday, and paid $3.60 per gallon. The week before it was $3.29. Yup, that's a big 'hit' in one weeks time.
@titaniumsoul (1191)
• Singapore
28 Feb 08
Thanks for your compliments, I was worried you can't understand my English. In fact, the rising cost is affecting you, me and everybody in this world.
1 person likes this
@filmbuff (2909)
• United States
27 Feb 08
This is a really tough question to answer.
So many people live beyond their means, or are carrying a large amount of debt (myself included.
Sadly I am money smart, yet I am still carrying debt and not saving nearly enough for retirement, because I'm trying to get rid of that debt. I've crunched the numbers, I could be debt free in 3 years if I keep on as I am now. However I need a new car, so I'm probably looking at more like 10 years; since the money I am paying off debt will instead go to a monthly car payment.
The middle class is fading. Comapanies are going to part-time jobs for less money since they also don't have to pay out benefits. And soo many jobs are going oversea's thats it's getting very hard to make a decent living. Most people are either at the top (highly educated, professional jobs) or bottom (taking whatever they can get to try and survive) of the ecconomic food chain.
The ecconomic stimulus package won't help much, if at all. It is too little money, way too late. Some will blow the money, most (like myself) will pay down debt with it. Sadly the people who need money the most, will get either half of what everyone else gets, or nothing at all.
There is another side to this question. I have a relative who is obssessed with being debt free. So much so that he lives like pauper saving tons and tons of money he never plans on spending. Never.
You can't take it with you. I think many people are counting on the government to help them when they retire, and plan on dying while carrying a lot of debt. What's it matter to them then? It's like a payback to the greedy corporations squeezing every penny out of us all the while paying us less and less and moving the jobs oversea's so the Executives and stock holders can get filthy rich.
1 person likes this
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
27 Feb 08
Hello Filmbuff,
I'm sorry to hear about your debt burden, as well as the need for updated transportation. I would not wish to be in a position of purchasing an automobile at this time. The industry is poised for big changes over the next few years, and I would personally prefer to not make a car purchase now, until the industry is comfortably over the 'curve' with regard to new economy standards, and fuel sources. I think that if I were in your position, that I would try to ride it out with my existing wheels, or buy an older, reliable vehicle to ride out the transition.
As for jobs heading overseas: Hold on to your hat, 'cause I believe that we are going to see alot more of that over the course of the next few years. I wish that I didn't see the trend happening, though it's pretty difficult to miss. The U.S.A. has the second highest corporate tax rates in the world. California's burgeoning state deficit, as linked to the highest tax bracketed individuals & businesses relocating out of the state so as to avoid further tax liabilities, and the real possibilities that the tax cuts will fail to be made permanent all portend the further off-shoring of our corporations, and jobs. And, who can really blame them? When you bite the bullet, to make that new car purchase, chances are high that you will look for the best value, at the best price, and with the best possible financing options, right? Well, why wouldn't corporations do the same?
Unless the American Consumer is willing to 'buy American', regardless of the price, then why should Corporate America be willing to 'invest in America', regardless of the price?
As for the tax rebate: Well, I wholeheartedly believe that's just an election year scam. At the same time that D.C. is 'willing' to give us back some of our money, they are contemplating raising the fuel tax, and personal income taxes, to off-set their rabid consumption habits.
In what world does that make any sense?
Anyway, instead of blathering on, I'll simply close with my sincerest hope that you find that better paying job, that you work out your transportation issues, and perhaps most importantly, that you get the debt monkey off of your back. It's not fun, and I imagine that it weighs heavily on your mind.
Thanks for sharing!
1 person likes this
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
29 Feb 08
Hello Filmbuff,
Hmmm, a leaky head gasket, huh? Yup, that's both a time-consuming, and costly major repair. If you only have the one vehicle, then I completely understand why you would opt to replace the vehicle, rather than invest in its repair. I hope that you can find a reliable substitution without taking on too much new debt.
I understand your point about the shortage and variety of American made products. Though, I can say that it is almost entirely possible for we consumers to make a concerted effort to buy other than Chinese made products. For a little over a year, Hubby & I have been diligent with regard to reading product labels. Whenever possible, we buy American made. If that isn't an option, we have seen the growth of Viet Nam, the Phillipines, Tailand, India, Pakistan, Mexico, and Brazil as major sources of U.S. imports. We make the concerted effort to have our hard earned dollars most impact those nations that have friendly trade & political relations with the USA.
Here is a rather comprehensive list of products that are made in the USA:
http://www.usstuff.com/prodlist.htm
1 person likes this
@filmbuff (2909)
• United States
29 Feb 08
I'm sure things will change in the next in the automobile industry in the next 10 or so years, but I can't wait. Having a leaking head gasket. I will be lucky if the car lasts into or through the summer, once it gets warm out there will be problems.
I think that the average consumer would buy american if they had that option. It is nigh impossible to find american made stuff in the retail stores.
Retail giants are following Walmarts lead and buying Chinese, to cut costs. Which is just bad for everyone, including the Chinese.
Rome fell when the middle class got squeezed into being the lower class. I hope history does not repeat itself with the United States. This country and our government needs a wakeup call. Unfortunetly the people running the show are at the top of the food chain and in corporate america's back pocket. Plus Ca Change...
1 person likes this
@Adoniah (7513)
• United States
26 Feb 08
Hello Ladyluna,
When I had my construction business, I had and used credit cards. They were paid off monthly or quraterly depending on the card. That is until my EX decided to max a few of them out to the tune of $37,000, when he and his new girlfriend made their exit. It took awhile to pay that off.
I cut them up, and will never have another card even though it was not my problem. I have no need for them now. I never did like credit cards. The only other thing I ever bought on a loan was the house, and it burned down. I'm just not big on the lay away plan anymore.lol
People today seem to need "instant gratification." They cannot put off the need for a reward until they have saved for it. They want it NOW. We have raised a lot of "gimme" generations. The Government is no help, since they are run on the same premise. They rob Peter to pay Paul and owe everybody money. It will take a long time for this country to climb out of the debt it is in now, if it can before some other country buys us out. We may have to learn Cantonese soon.
The worst thing about debt in this country is, that in order to buy a house you have to have debt in order to aquire a loan. No one will lend you the money for a house, unless you have debt in order to prove you have good credit.
It used to be a rule of thumb, that you never spent more then 25% of you income on shelter costs. Now people spend 30% or more on shelter costs, and if they also have credit card debt and car loans, how in the world can they make ends meet? It is ludicrous. But that is what is happening, and it is all going to come crashing down soon.
Shalom~Adoniah
@loudhummer14 (535)
• Philippines
23 Feb 08
im a very picky consumer. i seldom splurge. i think never... i'm the type of person who doesn't buy a new pair of socks when i still have a couple old ones. my wife on the other hand, loves shopping. i don't have a problem with it. we're just completely different when it comes to spending. i would like to say that i'm considerately practical. but i'm very forgiving about my mother and my wife being such an avid fan of shopping. i let them... besides, they are the reason why im working my a*$ out... LOL
1 person likes this
@loudhummer14 (535)
• Philippines
23 Feb 08
no overspending coz it's all in the budget. what i meant was, i would rather keep my money if i don't have anything important to buy. they, on the other hand -- are not the practical type. they shop. but it's ok. coz it's part of the budget, and they are not the type who gets sick if they don't get to shop. LOL.
1 person likes this
@wildcat180 (169)
• United States
22 Feb 08
I was cursed with a mother that lives on credit. Or lives for it. Not sure which. Her and step father make really good money, yet she insists of using credit whenever they shop and she rarely pays off the balances. She thinks nothing of dropping money and gifts on friends and family. (Not that there's anything wrong with her generosity, mind you. It just shouldn't be put on credit.)
Anyway, I had to learn the hard way that if you can't afford it, but have the credit, don't buy it.
I try very hard to live within our means. For the most part, I'm frugal to the point of being cheap...in some areas. My husband is not so good with money and his mother is an absolute nightmare with it. I handle the finances, but I have to keep a close check on him because if he sees something he likes in a store... Like when we grocery shop. Yeah, that magazine may only be $7, but when you're buying two magazines each time we shop, it adds up.
Still, through our efforts and struggles, we've still managed to buy our dream farm and have a low mortgage on it, have our truck with a small payment, and have our horses. I'm a stay at home mom and if something were to happen to my husband and he couldn't work, we could make it on my income if I went back into retail.
Now, our problem, should no major injuries or job losses occur, would be retirement. We have nothing going for us in that department. We both know we need to do something, but it's hard to work something like out when we live paycheck to paycheck.
I feel no sympathy for that California couple. They have the money to live decent lives, but they squandered it by trying to live out of their means. This is happening all too often these days. I think it becomes a problem for the whole of society when things get so bad that the government has to step in. As with the mortgage market. Maybe it sounds cruel of me, but I knew at 19 that you don't buy a house with an adjustable rate mortgage. I have no sympathy for these people dealing their mortgage payments ballooning because they went with an ARM instead of a fixed rate.
Now everyone is going to be forced to deal with their mistakes. Mortgage companies are going to be more stringent. The government may offer assistance at the cost of taxpayers to bail these people out. Sorry but no. If I defaulted on my loan, it would be shame on me. It should be that way for them.
1 person likes this
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
23 Feb 08
Hello Wildcat180,
First, let me welcome you to MyLot. I hope you thoroughly enjoy your time here. If this post is any indicator of your contributions to come, then I imagine the rest of us can look forward to terrific, quality contributions from you.
I applaud your conscientious efforts to live within your means. Though, it's got to be a challenge with horses. Perhaps God's noblest creature, yet terribly costly to maintain. Especially with the price of grains on the rise.
Anyway, I am thrilled to learn that frugality has allowed you and yours to live on your dream farm. That's wonderful.
Keep up the great work, and I hope you figure out how to build in a retirement contribution soon. Perhaps you could board a horse, or two?
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
23 Feb 08
You're welcome Wildcat,
Wow! You trim & shoe your own horses? Impressive!
As for the formula & diapers -- I can believe it. We have a six month old grandson, and one of the kid's biggest monthly expenses (aside from their housing bills) is diapers & formula. We've been trying to talk them into using cloth diapers .... but they say "that's so grosssssss!".
Thanks for the warm welcome!
Actually, it doesn't cost me very much to maintain my horses. I do their training, vaccinations, and feet. They live on our farm so I don't have to pay for boarding. We trade for our hay and their feed only runs me about $75 every three weeks during the winter. (Don't have to feed them when the grass is in.) We have an emergency savings account that we're always adding money to and should any of the horses need a vet for anything more than routine care, we're pretty well covered there.
It's funny, I spend more on diapers and formula for one baby than I do for four horses. Go figure! LOL!
@wildcat180 (169)
• United States
23 Feb 08
Thanks for the warm welcome!
Actually, it doesn't cost me very much to maintain my horses. I do their training, vaccinations, and feet. They live on our farm so I don't have to pay for boarding. We trade for our hay and their feed only runs me about $75 every three weeks during the winter. (Don't have to feed them when the grass is in.) We have an emergency savings account that we're always adding money to and should any of the horses need a vet for anything more than routine care, we're pretty well covered there.
It's funny, I spend more on diapers and formula for one baby than I do for four horses. Go figure! LOL!
1 person likes this
@redyellowblackdog (10629)
• United States
22 Feb 08
I do live within my means. So, much so that I have more time to do as I please than anyone I know. Anyone can do this. The first thing to do is to learn to disregard the opinions of others when it comes to things important to yourself. You'd be surprised how few people can do this, but really, anyone can and should.
Therefore, it is difficult for me to feel sorry for that California couple. They made their decisions. They can live with them.
1 person likes this
@polachicago (18716)
• United States
22 Feb 08
I made my choice not to use credit cards at all.
I only use what I have and I always save money for later.
I limited my spending to minimum to make sure I have money for basic bills and food....
I know people who have huge debt on all credit cards, maybe they think about job as permanent security.
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
22 Feb 08
Hello Polachicago,
I applaud your decision to avoid credit card use.
I do use them myself. However, I always pay off the entire balance each month. This way, I earn the rewards, and pay nothing for the convenience of plastic. This reqires unwavering discipline (Yup, I'm speaking from unhappy experience -- thankfully a long, long time ago.) So, if anyone else wants to try to do this, you MUST set concrete boundaries for yourself and your family. No over spending -- ever!
Never purchase with credit what you could not purchase with cash! Never finance a necessary purchase that you know you'll be able to pay in the good times, but would have to question in the lean times. How much house do we really need? How nice of a car do we really need? How many pairs of shoes? How many changes of clothes? This is especially true of disposable items!
I also agree with you about the crazy misconception that employment is permanent. No one is irreplaceable, and no job is ever a guaranteed paycheck.
Expect the best, but plan for the worst.
@p3halliwel2005 (3156)
• Philippines
23 Feb 08
I guess I am guilty on that. I am not money smart. I don't have any savings as well but I have reasons. I work full time but my husband doesn't so I pay all the bills and feed and raise my family. I have 5 kids by the way. I recently bought a second hand car because I am so tired of commuting and walking to and fro so that comes out of a loan. Then I have 2 credit cards that has 0 balance on it. Then at work I owe 3 people a huge amount of money. I also have a maid because I have a back problem and I cannot carry on working and doing housework. And with that back problem I need to go to the gym too so that needs pay as well. We are a poor country and we don't get much benefits from the government. We own the house though and don't pay for it. But I pay for electric, water, gas, internet, tuitions, groceries and whatever else there is to pay. I will soon save once I have paid off some of my bills.
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
23 Feb 08
Hello p3,
A "Charmed" fan, are ya'? That's a fun show.
Well, if your member page is correct, then you're only 34 yrs. old. Which means that you still have time to begin financial planning for tomorrow, emergencies, and beyond.
If I may ask, does your husband watch the kids, and take care of the house, while you're at work? If so, then I say more power to you both. There's nothing wrong with Dads taking on this role. Hey, this is the new milennium right? If you're the higher wage earner, then why not?
Of course, I don't pretend to have any clue about your life or circumstances. However, I'll share a little (maybe big) money saving tip with you. I also have back (spinal) problems. Though I stopped paying for gym memberships a long, long time ago. Undeniably, the best thing I've ever done for my spine, and overall state of health, is to take up Yoga. Once one learns the basics, it can be done in the comfort of one's own home! Meaning no more expensive gym memberships. I hope this tip helps. It's made a dynamic difference for me.
Anyway, I hope that you get inspired to tackle your financial health soon. The younger one is when they commit themselves to financial health, the better off they will be through the years.
Best Wishes!
@drannhh (15219)
• United States
22 Feb 08
I think what comes around goes around. It is natural to want more than one can afford, whether one is as poor as a church mouse or a multi-millionaire just trying to complete with her fellow jet-setters. What is not natural is to gamble with the safety and security of one's family. But when one recklessly spends beyond one's means it is a mistake that is going to end up hurting someone and break trust and complicate life for everyone involved.
Almost everyone has been in a situation at one time or another when they have had to borrow to get out of a financial scrape. Most people require the assistance of a mortgage in order to be able to afford home ownership. But instead of buying the fanciest home on the block, a sensible person buys sensibly, and understands that market conditions are subject to fluctuation. A sensible person endeavors to make mortgage prepayments to principle to cut down on the interest paid rather than borrowing more against the equity. If enough people gamble with their most important lifetime investments, and gamble foolishly, and lose, our nation's economy collapses, plain and simple. In this way a few can bring down many. We all lose. So failing to manage one's money is in my view an act of aggression, not merely a callous attempt to use one's fellow for one's own possible benefit.
1 person likes this
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
23 Feb 08
Hello Drannhh,
Thank you for such a fabulous response. Wow! Are you ever right about compulsive spending wreaking havoc on people's lives.
I also greatly appreciate your mention of pre-paying mortgage principle. This is something that everyone should be doing. Even if it's only $50.00 per month.
Lastly, I am thrilled that you've made mention of how devasting individual financial choices can be on the nation as a whole. I hadn't looked at if from the perspective of an act of aggression, though now that you mention it, I can see your point.
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts here. They are powerful!
@gemini_rose (16264)
•
22 Feb 08
It has taken us a while, but we now live within our means, this is only because of a scare we had with a credit card and a large overdraft. The only debt we have now is our mortgage which is about a quarter of our income so is not too bad. We now save as much of our disposable income as we can to get the things we want. It is not as hard as I thought living like this, I am finding more ways to cut down on what I spend so I can save more and I am finding more ways to just earn a few extra pounds here and there. Its actually a challenge to me now each month to scrape away as much as I can so I dont mind. It beats having to worry how I am going to find the money to pay a credit card bill or catalogue or store card bill and it is satisfying knowing that the things we do buy are paid for straight out rather than borrowing.
1 person likes this
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
23 Feb 08
Hello Gemini_rose,
It sounds as though you are positioned pretty well on your mortgage, as an overall percentage of your income. And, it's terrific that you are focusing on saving.
Drannhh's suggestion to pre-pay the mortgage principle is a really great suggestion! I don't know if it's prohibited in your country, or not. Though, if you can pre-pay on the principle balance, it will bode well for your future.
Keep up the great work!
@AlwaysAskingWhy (96)
• United States
22 Feb 08
After immigrating to the the US, we made the same mistakes as others - buying things on credit. We never did this before, but we thought this was the "American way." So we did what Americans did, and got into debt. Bad mistake. We learned our lessons the hard way and no longer believe the hype of TV commercials. So we paid off our debts and now try to live within our means. I feel sorry for those, who like me, made mistakes due to ignorance. But that shouldn't be the case now, since a lot of easily accessible info exists on the Internet on how to manage your finances properly. I don't feel sorry for those who should know better, but continue to get into debt, just to impress or show off to others how "successful" they are from the cars, clothes, jewelry, or houses they buy.
@ladyluna (7004)
• United States
23 Feb 08
Hello AlwaysAskingWhy,
Please allow me to welcome you to MyLot, as well. I hope your time here exceeds your wildest expectations.
I'm tempted to say that I'm sorry that the foolish emphasis on consumerism caused you and yours such stress. However, I won't say that, because you seem to have really gotten your life together. For the resilient, our most painful life lessons are often our most appreciated life lessons. Based on your response, it's inconceivable that you will ever find yourself in a position of gambling with your future over meaningless, impulse purchasing. For this, I sincerely applaud you!
Keep up the great work! And, welcome to America! If I may ask, why did you immigrate to the U.S.A.? Of course, please don't feel compelled to share your immigration story, unless you're comfortable doing so.