Christian Lie of Free Will
By beijair
@beijair (206)
United States
April 19, 2008 9:58pm CST
I am not Christian or Anti-Christian. I am here to just post what is stated in the bible and provide my perspective. Based on what I read and the scriptures of the bible, man does NOT have Free Will.
I would like everyone to pay attention as we will see Christians reply to this and say they have Free Will, even after I post scripture, after scripture that shows there is NO FREE WILL according to the bible.
Lets Begin:
Phil. 2:13 - "For it is God which WORKS in YOU both TO WILL and TO DO of His pleasures."
Where in the world is FREE WILL in that scripture? There IS NOT!
John 15:5 - "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same bring forth much fruit, for without me YE CAN DO NOTHING"
What can one do on their own? NOTHING! FREE WILL? Absolutely NOT
Even Jesus stated many times that "the son can do NOTHING of himself"
Notice how Christians think they can and therefore apparently have more power than the Son of God which could do NOTHING but for the Father. Amazing, isn't it?
John 5:19 - ".....The Son can do NOTHING of Himself...."
John 19:11 - "....You could have NO power at all against me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above....".
Now let us look at another one that even indicates it was Predestinated or better put, our destiny was pre-arranged by God.
Eph. 1:11 - 'In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED ACCORDING to the PURPOSE OF HIM who works ALL THINGS after his OWN WILL."
Wow, that states it ALL. But don't worry, there are many, many more scriptures that support what I have stated. Did anyone see FREE WILL in ANY of those scriptures or did they imply that man can just decide to do anything outside of the will of God? Absolutely NOT!
Rom 11:36 - ...."For of HIM, and through HIM, and to HIM, are ALL THINGS...."
Did anyone see Free Will in that statement? Of course NOT!
Matt. 6:9 - 10 - "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, THY WILL BE DONE in earth , as it is in heaven."
Did is say Man's WILL? Absolutely NOT.
What did God say to Moses?
Rom. 9:15 - "For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
Ver. 16 - "So then it is NOT OF HIM THAT WILLS, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy."
Did anyone see Free Will in any of those scriptures either? Absolutely NOT.
Rom. 9:19 - "...for who has resisted HIS WILL?" Apparently, NO ONE...but Christian think they do.
One can't even be Saved if it is not God's Will:
John 6:44 - "NO man can COME to ME, except the Father which has sent ME draw him: ....what man can? NO MAN! Free Will....not hardly.
John 15:16 - "YOU have NOT chosen ME, but I have CHOSEN YOU...."
Seems it is NOT man's decision to choose anything. Pretty Clearly there is NO Free Will in any of those scriptures and ALL those scriptures support my statement and each other. Wow, amazingly simple to read and understand.
However, it is very difficult if you are raised to believe or even threaten to believe for fear of punishment by fire.
Eph. 2:8-10 - "....For we are HIS workmanship, .......which GOD has BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them"
Has anyone ever had Free Will in decision that were BEFORE Ordained? Absolutely NOT.
Has anyone noticed the number of scriptures that have Jesus telling others they have no power but for the father and many more with Jesus stating even He had no power or will but for doing what the father has willed?
Christians still think they have free will and the scriptures continue throughout the bible to contradict and show Christians to lie with regard to what is taught in the bible. Very simple to see and we will see them attempt to argue what is stated in the bible and claim they are right and God is wrong. Pretty amazing to watch but a FACT, if you see my other discussion one will notice exactly that happening.
John 12:49 - "for i have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent Me, he gave me commandments What I should say, and What I should speak"
John 14:10 - "Believe you not that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The words taht i speak unto you, I speak NOT of myself, but the father that dwells in ME, he does the works".
NONE of it was Jesus or in Jesus control, it was ALL controlled by God...according to the bible.
The bible shows us how God works:
"being predestinated, the purpose of HIM, works ALL things, Of HIS OWN will...."
Did anyone see Free Will in any of those statements?
Look at the story of JOB...did he have free will? HaHa
Look at the story of Peter, he told Jesus he would not Deny him, Jesus told him he would, Peter insisted he would NOT. Jesus again told him he would and what happened? The will of the father or the will of Peter?
Clearly, it was the will of God and the bible makes it clear, time and time again.
Notice how seem to be able to provide an endless list of proof to support my comment? There are many more and I could do this for hours but the fact is clear and we will watch Christian attempt to say they have FREE WILL and put themselves above Jesus himself.
II Cor.5:18 - "and ALL things are OF GOD"
I didn't see it say and some things are of man...did you? Absolutely NOT!
Heb. 2:10 - "for it became HIM for whome are ALL things, and BY whom are ALL things..."
Wow!! Did anyone see Free Will in that one?
Col.1:17 "And he is before ALL things, and by HIM ALL things consist".
Jer 10:23 - "Olord, i know that the way of man is NOT IN HIMSELF it is NOT in MAN that walks to direct his steps".
Did everyone Catch that one? Like all the other scriptures that support it?
Prov. 20:24 - "Man's goings are OF THE LORD; how can man then understand his own way?"
Watch all the Christians claim they have free will and "understand their own way". haha
According to the bible God does EVERYTHING, and even created EVIL and Satan and Wicked people. EVERYTHING and God controls the functions of ALL things.
"God operates ALL IN ALL". Now where is free will in that statement. If God operates/controls the functions all in all, then how can one have free will?
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE, one Absolutely CAN NOT have free will if God controls the functions of ALL IN ALL!!
Now, show this truth to kids and they will quickly learn that the Christian teachings complete contradict the word of their own God. I have listed only a few of the scriptures as I have to type them in by hand, there are MANY more that support my comment.
Now, Kids, what the Christian attempt to say they have Free Will when their God clearly shows them they do not and that they don't even know or understand it is happening.
Peace and Love to All
1 person likes this
4 responses
@Sonadora (356)
• United States
20 Apr 08
This may be a little harsh, but religion tends to bring out the worst in me. Just get off your high horse and quit preaching. Part of Christianity is knowing that we are not ready to understand everything just yet. We are not ready for all the answers. Religion is not an exact science and there are a million different ways to interpret each and every scripture in the bible. Christianity is not about having all the answers.
@beijair (206)
• United States
20 Apr 08
I do not think it is harsh and we should all speak what we feel freely.
What i posted was exactly from the bible and it is clear how to interpret it, in my opinion.
Religion is not an exact science? It is NOT science at all. It is a belief and I am not on any high horse at all. I only take the time to actually read the scripture and give my opinion. Many will not like it because it flies in the face of of those that were taught to believe differently.
So, we can compare what is actually stated, over and over in the bible and we can compare it to what is actually stated by those that claim to follow. It is a rather simple and logical process.
It is funny that some might say part of Christianity is "knowing that we are not ready to understand everything" yet when it comes to telling others what they should believe, christians seem to think they understand it all and are happy to quote scriptures in the process. When i quote scriptures that have an overwhelming simple conclusion, they don't like it.
What I have posted on this discussion is much like the pamphlets i leave in books stores and coffee shops and even in reading materials in the teen section of religious book stores. i leave my email address and have received some rather positive results from this project. the number of emails i receive each week have now overwhelmed my ability to reply to all in a timely manner
clearly, according to the bible man doesn't have free will and i listed only a fraction of the scriptures that support my point.
if you would like to actually debate the scripture, we can do that but I didn't see any argument presented on what i had stated.
i will take the no argument as an overwhelming agreement with my conclusion..hehe
peace to you and your family
@Sonadora (356)
• United States
20 Apr 08
Think what you will, but I honestly don't agree with you at all. Keep in mind that there have evolved different religions which fall under the realm of Christianity. To group all Christians together in one category and say that they feel the same, think the same, etc., is nothing more than bigotry. Stereotyping is not something I can agree with, and that is exactly the point you are making.
@beijair (206)
• United States
20 Apr 08
Let us look at it like this. What i posted if from the bible. How would it be interpreted by the average person? Clearly, if we are not taught to believe something or have some need to believe something, we can see that according to the bible, the word of god, there is NO free will.
That is my point and Provided several scriptures to PROVE what i stated is true. There is really no way around it unless someone wants to make excuses or attempt to direct the discussion into other directions.
So i started this discussion to prove that according to the bible, many versions of the bible, man has NO free will. It is all the will of god. I can provide another page or two of supporting stories or scriptures more than i have already provided.
Yet we will see most all christians tell us they have free will...against the word of the god they say they believe. i find that rather interesting.
Peace
@Gordano (795)
• United States
22 Apr 08
Hello beijair,
I was referred to Your discussion, and Here is my Humble Opinion about the Free will.
First off, I 'm a Muslim and I will discuss the Free will according my Islamic View.
The First Point I want to Mention That God will Never Judge us For Things that we Have Nothing to do with, God will judge us ONLY for Things we CHOOSE to do, Not things we are forced to do, or Things we Have Nothing to do with it.
From an Islamic point of view, human beings are free for all practical purposes. A person has no excuse for making the wrong CHOICE and then blaming destiny, any more than a man punching his fist into a wall can blame the laws of nature. He knew the consequences of his actions for all practical purposes and he shouldn't expect a miracle!
We should not worry about what Allah has written for us, since we can never know it. But our duty is to strive for the best in this world and the next. Then, good results will follow, if Allah wills.
As for the question of whether humans are predestined to enter Paradise or Hell, we must remember that Allah transcends the limits of time. He is All-Knowing of the past, present and future. Thus He KNOWS IN ADVANCE which path — good or evil — each individual will CHOOSE and what will be his or her final destination — Paradise or Hell. But such knowledge DOESN'T MEAN that He makes each person choose a certain path.
I hope That Clarify something, and for further reading about the Point, here is a Link:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545040
With regards
@owlwings (43910)
• Cambridge, England
22 Apr 08
Bejair! You now say that you believe that we have free will! That is in complete opposition to what you say in this discussion and elsewhere in which you seem to say that a belief in free will is against the teachings of the Bible. Why go to such lengths to angrily substantiate a claim that you don't actually believe in?
@beijair (206)
• United States
22 Apr 08
Gordano, thanks for your reply. I am sorry, but I know NOTHING about your religion. I can only state what i have based on the christian religion and the words of the bible which i posted in the main text.
I personally believe we have free will and no god is going to tell me i don't. if he would like to try, then let him but i can promise you he is not going to do it. just my humble opinion as well.
peace to you
@owlwings (43910)
• Cambridge, England
22 Apr 08
... why not simply state that you don't believe the Bible is the 'word of God'?
@owlwings (43910)
• Cambridge, England
22 Apr 08
I was going to take each one of your quotations and show that you are frequently (if not always) using them out of context. The list is too long, however, and it has been said more often than I care to count that, by doing what you are doing, it is possible to quote words from the Bible to 'prove' ANY point you care to make.
Bejair, the more I read what you write, the more I begin to think that you are a fanatic who has lost sight of the central truth: "Be still and know that I am God!"
You are claiming that we do not have Free Will but by so doing, are you not therefore implying that it is God - through you - who is making all this noise? I see that as a kind of self-justification of the most perilous kind!
It also follows from your argument that murderers, child-molesters, corrupt politicians - the whole shebang of evil, in fact - are merely 'doing the Will of God' because they cannot help but do otherwise! If this is not what you are trying to say, then perhaps you need to take a step back from yourself and consider where your 'logic' is leading you.
As a matter of fact, from reading what you write, I find myself increasingly unclear as to whether or not you believe in a God (of whatever kind).
1) If you don't believe in a God, then it is quite pointless to argue that we can do nothing without Him or to quote from the Bible to substantiate your claims. You cannot say that there is no God and, in the same breath, quote what, by that admission, is worthless in your defence!
2) If you do believe in a God and that free will is an illusion, then it is a waste of time arguing the matter or trying to convince them otherwise because those people who believe in free will must do so because it is 'the Will of God' that they do!
Either way, you are fighting a losing battle. Please be at peace!
@owlwings (43910)
• Cambridge, England
22 Apr 08
You may be interested to read the following article on Free Will:
http://home.sprynet.com/~owl1/fwill.htm
It uses logical argument rather than quotations from a dubious source.
@Pitgull (1522)
• United States
21 Apr 08
Thank you for telling me about this article. I appreciate the time and effort you must have put into this, quoting the scriptures everyone wants to say support what they think their God does, when their religion teaches a completely contradictory code.
I believe events are preplanned, but I believe we always have a part in it. Our ideas, dreams and thoughts reflect what we truly desire, we are responsible for our actions and draw both negative and positive to ourselves.
Why would God create the Devil? This I do not understand. There is good and bad that exist. Good things happen and bad things happen to people, but what might be good for me, could be bad for you, without either of us even knowing it. Why then, would God create something else, this EVIL, when there is already good and bad that are hard enough to differentiate at times?
@beijair (206)
• United States
21 Apr 08
I think you question is a good one and really only shows that this God that is written about in the bible or the words written to tell us about him are not correct. I believe we have free will and we can decide what will or will not happen in our lives to almost every extent outside of some sickness or geneitc issues.
I put forth what is stated in the bible because so many think they know what it states but i have actually read it to understand it and not just to follow what my religion at the time believed.
you should see the looks i get when i ask questions at church. especially when kids are around. i guess they think it is not health to ask critical questions when kid are around....hummmm, i wonder why.
