Worship?

I guess I didn't really answer your question, just commented on them... ... Sorry about veering off the argument, I usually feel that hitting an argument at a tangent is enough to count me in that argument. Veering is good, it leads to new and interesting discussions. One of our lecturers could NEVER stay on course, but he was the best and most interesting lecturer at the university. I'm also guessing that the "fear" part was only instilled by early religious leaders who used and abused their faith and followers to gain power, this power later becoming part and parcel of that religion. Fear is a powerful tool. I've often wondered why a deity would need its followers to fear it, if it only had their interests at heart (not all deities do). After all, you can fear something without following it. I suppose the same could be said for worship though...

All interesting and good points and I'd agree with you for the most part. Didn't come close to answering my questions though... lol But anyway... I doubt even as an individual one can say how they SHOULD worship their own deity, only how they THINK they should. If a lot of people agree on a way to do something for a deity they all believe, they form a group, a religion... the danger comes when they start trying to enforce those beliefs on others.

You wanted to know people's feelings on worship: I believe that its generally dangerous (see religion). I guess I didn't really answer your question, just commented on them. On your first point: I presume truly religious people worship out of faith and love for their various deities. I'm also guessing that the "fear" part was only instilled by early religious leaders who used and abused their faith and followers to gain power, this power later becoming part and parcel of that religion. About your second: My worship is entirely dictated by me, I let no outside forces affect my judgments in this matter. Sorry about veering off the argument, I usually feel that hitting an argument at a tangent is enough to count me in that argument.

Succinctly put and I know many will agree with you. I'm staying schtum on the matter of what I believe... for now. May I ask; do you believe in any higher power, even if you do not worship one?

I don't believe in a higher power myself. On top of that, I find the concept very clumsy. Higher in terms of what sort of power? Many people will state that God is 'perfect' but nothing is perfect for everything. A black beatle is perfect for hiding against a black background but as soon as it wonders onto something of bright colour it is clearly visible and so not a perfect hider. Also, what could possibly motivate an omniscient being to create something like a universe? They already know the outcome; if they don't then they are not omniscient.

I suppose the general meaning of 'higher' is "one with a greater ability to consciously influence the universe, all that it contains and all (if anything) that is beyond." But that's not going to be everyone's definition. As for omniscience; yes, that one's confused me at times, for the exact same reason. Why would a being that can see the outcome experiment with something? And if it is experimenting, why should we worship it anyway? But I didn't start this discussion to accuse people of being wrong (but I'll probably do it at some point!), simply to get some opinions. I've never understood traditional (read; fearful) worship in monotheistic faiths. And polytheistic worship has it's difficulties for me. So, I just want to know what people believe and get a better understanding.

Of course, religion is misunderstood by most (Myself included) and priests have a special problem. Jesus commands his Church not to have priests but to live as brothers and sisters under him. Matthew 23 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. all the best urban

God-fearing being an umbrella term for all that a person feels towards a deity, then? It's never seemed that way to me, I've met people (including a man studying to become a priest) who only feared God (Christian) or what he could do them, love and awe never came into it (the millennium turning was hilarious fun!). But I guess for some, many perhaps, it's exactly as you say.

If prayer is thought, and thought affects reality, then this is an observer related universe... soooo offering prayer up to God... creates God... *shakes head* sorry, been reading far too many evangelical threads today. Ahem. I've actually been thinking about prayer, thoughts and quantum mechanics recently. I agree that every single minute thing that happens in this universe affects the 'shape' (for want of a better word) of all that is in the universe. However, does praying necessarily shift all the atoms in the right direction to get you what you want? My partner would say yes, because 'will power' is an innate ability of humans to 'do the maths' and move the correct atoms to set the ball rolling (or the butterfly flapping) to reach our desired results. If the desired results were not achieved you were either not thinking hard enough (doubt) or your ability to 'do the maths' is flawed, just as some people cannot 'do the maths' to predict where a ball will land and catch it. So anyway, you offer prayer to God as worship, but expect things in return. Very mercenary *wink* Heh, I know what you mean, I'm just playing. Interesting thoughts you bring up.

Thanks for the input LaHire, even if you skirted round your own personal beliefs (I know you don't worship a deity). Egyptian myth and culture fascinate me. Their myths are so... different, and no one seems to know why. Isolation? Well, they took on other cultures' gods, but not so much the actual myths. Landscape? This is a strong argument, and one I find quite compelling. The landscape, the local environment, was the be all and end of all of ancient man. Everything he did was conducted by what the land would 'allow' him to do. So the landscape shaped man's mind, shaped his psyche, shaped the very myths he created (what were at that time perfectly rational explanations for natural phenomena etc). This is most evident in Australian legend and the Dream Time. So if landscape shapes myth, and the ancient Egyptian landscape was quite unusual... then it follows so will their myths be. Anyway... going off on one...

hmmm..... nice observation dude.... :)

Very interesting points. I've never really distinguished between the two different types of god fearing worship you outline. I assume you think one can do both?

well the god loving and god fearing theory..!! for me... this was a theory to group the weak with the strong... if it hasn't been it.... human race would have collapsed... till now... just an idea could let a weak oppose a strong... thinking some1 is on his side... while an opposite idea from same source can stop the strong from over powering the weak.. thinking there is some1 more powerful than him who would punish him for torchering the weak!! it was a nice idea.. but now it doesn't hold much value!!

God is most certainly way above any of us. He created us and it totally holy and soverign. We are sinners and we don't deserve His love and kindness, yet He gives it to us anyway. You have a really hard time understanding Who God really is. I pray you will come to know Him someday!

Thanks for a heartfelt response. He says we must fear him but we should also respect him. Some say this is the perfect combination a leader should instil in his followers; fear and respect. Though I find it to be a more for a military leader... though as you say "When I come into his presence I humble myself, remembering what he has done, the victory he has won so I praise him." Worship should come from within. I'm sure many would agree with you.