Faith Or Works ?? Paul vs. Jesus
By Gordano
@Gordano (795)
United States
August 3, 2008 10:20pm CST
In This Page By Davis D. Danizier I have read about contradiction between Paul and Jesus Christ PBUH and The Question raised again How will People go to heaven (be saved)or How will one be JUSTIFIED Is it by FAITH or WORKS ??
Paul (originally as Saul of Tarsus) was an admitted persecutor of Christians who might have found a more effective way to undermine the followers of Jesus. Perhaps he infiltrated their ranks and taught a doctrine that opposed teachings attributed to Jesus on several fronts, replacing Jesus' alleged teaching of universal, compassionate, selfless action with a selfish teaching of desire to gain a "free gift" of salvation based only on faith and completely devoid of any behavioral requirement or obedience to law, and distracting us from the selfless teachings attributed to Jesus. (It must be noted that Jesus never wrote anything, and his reported teachings are based on accounts whose authorship cannot be verified with certainty, but we can still cite the body of teachings attributed to Jesus as the Jesus doctrine since that is what has been handed down to us as being his teachings.
Despite the widespread, uncritical adulation of Paul by those who listen to others instead of thinking for themselves, independent-minded analysts of Jesus' teachings have often found great cause to find fault with Paul. One of the most famous criticisms comes from Thomas Jefferson, who wrote in a letter to James Smith, that "Paul was ... the first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus." (Works, 1829 edition, vol. 4, p. 327.) George Bernard Shaw, the English playwright, is widely quoted as having said that: "...it would have been a better world if Paul had never been born."
All of the gospels are replete with statements of behavioral obligation, and NEVER once make any statement remotely similar to Paul that the faith and grace that engender salvation occur "apart from" obedience, works or deeds. There are certainly passages that cite the importance, even the need, for faith or belief, and in some of these the idea of actions or "works" might go unmentioned. It is common for a passage to deal with a single subject only. But even in such passages, no one other than Paul ever comes out and specifically states that works or good behavior are NOT essential to salvation or justification. Paul is the only one to do this.
Another issue must be considered when contemplating a theology of salvation based solely on belief and nothing else. Belief requires exposure. One cannot have belief in something that one has never been exposed to. So what about those who were supposedly created by a God who is both just and merciful, but lived in a time or place when there would be absolutely no possible chance of ever being exposed to Jesus? Imagine an innocent child born in India, China or Africa 800 years before Jesus was born (or even 800 years afterward, for that matter). There would be absolutely no chance this child could ever be exposed to the opportunity of believing in Jesus or accepting him as personal savior. Again, Paul's theology consigns such innocent children to hell, Is Paul's doctrine of salvation only by faith, and consigning all others to eternal damnation, from the God of justice or mercy?
The entire Page Here:
http://www.wordwiz72.com/paul.html
Is Paul a deceiver ??
Romans 3:7 (King James Version)
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
So, What do You Think ? Faith Or Works ?
2 people like this
6 responses
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
4 Aug 08
Hi Gordano, Thank you for starting this excellent discussion. I have been reading the Bible for almost sixty years and for much of that time I believed in the teachings of Paul, as I did the rest of the New Testament. In recent years I have wondered more and more about the teaching of Paul, but this is the first time I've seen anyone express it as you have here. I had though about posting some of my thoughts but decided against it, at least until a bit later. When I read the Bible now, I concentrate mainly on the teachings of Jesus as found in the Gospels along with the letter of James. I do not take the Bible literally as many people do, so I take many of the stories in the Old Testament with a grain of salt. Just as you noted here, I too see a big difference between the teachings of Paul and that of Jesus. I have read that in the early years of Christianity there were three groups of Christians, who were sharply divided on what the true teachings of Jesus were. The group led by Paul eventually eliminated the others. It was some three hundred years later that Constantine came along and decided to adopt Christianity as the official religion of The Roman Empire, in my view that too did a lot of harm to the teachings of Christ. It was during his time that the first Bible was put together, and any of the early teachings that the emperor, or the church leaders of the time didn't like were left out. I agree with Thomas Jefferson, that Christianity would have been better off without Paul. Once again may I say thank you for this, at least I know that I am not alone in having such serious doubts about Paul's teachings, as compared to those of Jesus. Blessings.
@Gordano (795)
• United States
24 Aug 08
and, I can say you are intelligent, Just Compare:
Genesis 17:9-11 KJV
( 9 ) And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
( 10 ) This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
( 11 ) And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
To Galatians 5:2 KJV
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Thanks, and Best regards
@veganbliss (3895)
• Adelaide, Australia
24 Jun 11
I'm very much in agreement here, also with Islander's comments & even Awapak's. Your President Jefferson was a well-read fellow. I was trying to find his quote you were referring to, but found others instead. At least now I know where to put it when I do find it!
Thomas Jefferson prophetically wrote, as is being verified: “The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter”!
He also frequently asserted that St Paul was "...the great corrupter of the doctrine of Jesus the Nazarene".
@user_786 (1338)
•
11 Feb 09
Luke 18: 18-20 is another one of many examples that prove that Jesus never came to teach that salvation is through his "blood".
Not in any single reference in complete Old and New Testament is there anything that indicates that people will be saved from Jesus's blood.
Jesus at one place in bible said that he came not to destroy but to fulfill the Old The Law (The Old Testament commandments) and we find in Old Testament that God has said in several places that son will not inherit father's sin
@EvanHunter (4026)
• United States
5 Aug 08
No I don't think Paul is a great deceiver. The works he was talking about was works of flesh, being circumcised. He wasn't telling the Jews not to be circumcised he was telling the gentiles. Because they had been accepted by God and given the holy ghost but others came in and told them they needed to be circumcised to keep the law of Moses. As he pointed out Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith and he was never circumcised. Obviously if you have no faith than you wont have works or your works might be contrary to what God wants. The law of the gentiles was set forth in the book of acts. Its not works of flesh that make you pure but works of the spirit and faith is one you cant make it without.
@g3n3j0rd (721)
• Philippines
5 Aug 08
The Apostle Paul was the minister of the dispensation or the age of Grace. Unto him, the doctrine about the Body of Christ was given. If you notice, you won't hear or read anywhere else about the Body of Christ except in Paul's writings. His message is very different from the Mosaic law wherein Jesus Himself was born under the law.
Paul might not have seen the Lord Jesus Christ and he was truly the persecutor of the early Christians or early church (not the Body of Christ since the Body of Christ was revealed only to Paul) but Paul indeed had seen the risen Lord and had received revelations about the mystery (read Ephesians 3) which is the Age of Grace and the Body of Christ.
These teachings were never revealed and the prophets of the old testament never knew about this dispensation of Grace, more so, the other 12 apostles. Jesus Christ never discussed it and only revealed this to Paul after He resurrected and had gone up to Heaven. The Risen Lord had new revelations which were given to Paul alone. That's why you would see Paul and Peter arguing (Galatians 5) because the message of Paul is that of Grace and the members of the Body of Christ should not be bound by the Mosaic Law.
The Bible have different dispensations and have specific message for each dispensation. That would be another topic but let me give you an example. During the time of Adam and Eve or the Dispensation of Innocence, God told them to eat only fruits from the trees but during the time of Noah, God had instructed people to eat anything. At the time of Moses or the Law, there were certain unclean foods that people could not eat. For the age of Grace, Paul advised that you can eat anything as long as it doesn't stumble or offend anyone.
Paul did not contradict Jesus. His message was from the Risen Jesus! Don't get yourselves confused.
@awapak (1275)
• Pakistan
10 Aug 08
Thanks for giving this detailed post about this topic.You are 100% right in saying that mere faith is not sufficient for salvation,our deeds and good behavior are more important for it.Please keep writing .............
@color210 (34)
• United States
4 Aug 08
Matthew 10:32-33 "Everyone who aknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also aknowledge before my Father in heaven. But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Fathre in heaven."
That passage doesn't say anything about good works. It only states that you must aknowledge Jesus as the son of God. As a savior! This is one of many examples in the gosples of statements made to that effect.
Aside from the statements in the bible, making it clear that it is by faith that we are accepted into heaven, I believe there is an even bigger argument to be made for Faith. We has humans could never do enough good works in our lifetimes to be as good as Jesus and God. Those who truly begin their spirtual journey quickly learn that they can never attain that level of perfectness. It is not that we should not try, but rather that it is simply not something we can obtain on our own. We must ask for help! That help is given to us through Jesus. That is what faith is all about, getting help from Jesus.