Really need some input
By Richard
@rbailey83 (1428)
Canada
August 27, 2008 10:08pm CST
i have a theory of sorts about a possible way to approach my depression with a treatment i have already done, but i want to know if it makes sense. please be honest because if it doesn't i can continue to look at other things before i see my psych to bring it up.
if i recall correctly, Nardil was started after we stopped ECT (shock therapy). The nardil seemed to take hold, when no other med had, for a while, but has recently stopped working.
so, what if we were to either stop the meds, and re-visit the ECT and then start them again, or continue with these meds while doing the ECT again?
What if the ECT didn't work for my depression itself, but it opened something that allowed the nardil to take hold for the period it did.
Would it make sense that if that were the case, then re-visiting the ECT may again open that channel, so to speak, and allow the meds to again take hold?
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4 responses
@phoenix25 (1541)
• United States
29 Aug 08
I am a psychology student so I am not an expert, but I am actually studying abnormal psychology right now so I thought I might respond. This is definitely something you need to discuss with your doctor, but I'll give you my thoughts. First of all, it really depends on what kind of depression you have. Depression is a mood disorder and there are several types of mood disorders. They are major depressive disorder, dysthymic disorder (or minor depression), bipolar I disorder, bipolar II disorder, and cyclothymic disorder. I am assuming that because you have received ECT that you have major depressive disorder because ECT is only generally used in cases of severe depression. Studies on ECT have shown that ECT treatments spaced over a number of weeks can be an effective treatment for depression. However, the reason that it is effective in treating depression is still somewhat of a mystery. We don't exactly know WHY it works and it is still a controversial therapy because it can have some side effects, such as memory loss that can be permanent or temporary. Some doctors are for it, while some are against it. Since I don't know more info about your particular treatment regiment, I can't give you a lot more information, but I will say this... Medications used to treat depression change the chemistry in your brain to adjust the release of certain neurotransmitters that control mood. ECT used in conjunction with medications for depression would not necessarily have any different effect than using them separately. They both work in different ways. ECT does not change the chemistry of your brain. It just triggers an electrical storm, basically a seizure, within the brain. The particular medication that you are on, Nardil (or Phenelzine) is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, more commonly referred to as an MAOI, letters which most people might recognize from medication commercials or the warning labels written on the back of many over-the-counter medications. MAOIs are often referred to as "first generation" antidepressants because they have been used since the 1950's. I won't bore you with technical terms, but MAOIs basically work by inhibiting a compound called monoamine oxidase, which degrades serotonin and norepinephrine (which can affect mood) within the brain. MAOIs must be taken for several weeks to determine whether they will be effective in treating the depression. I am not sure how long you've been taking the Nardil, so I can't say for sure whether you've been taking it long enough to see if it will work for you or not. The most common type of medications used today to treat depression are selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRIs. SSRIs are referred to as "second generation" antidepressants because they were put in use in the 1980's. SSRIs work by blocking the reuptake of serotonin, a neurotransmitter that helps to regulate mood, which increasing the amount of serotonin that is avaible for absorption neurons in the brain. There is also a third class of antidepressants called tricyclics. They are also a "first generation" antidepressant and work by blocking the reuptake of norepinephrine within the brain, leaving the neurotransmitter to spread to adjacent neurons in the brain. Tricyclics can have a lot of physical side effects, though. Anyway, I would encourage you to talk to your doctor about your concerns. It can take trying several different medications to find one that works for you. In the meantime, I would suggest trying to get to the bottom of what is causing your depression. Depression can be tricky to treat because it is a disorder of multiple causality, meaning that a combination of things can cause it. If your depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in your brain, then medication should help that. At the very least, medication could help you to feel an improvement in your mood while you go through psychotherapy to get to the bottom of depression that is caused, at least in part, by your life experiences and emotional factors. I am not sure how long you went through ECT, but if it did not work and you tried it for several weeks with no success, then it probably wouldn't be wise to try it again. If it didn't work through one course of treatment, it is not likely that it will help with your depression and it is not work the risk of causing possible amnesia with further ECT sessions. I hope this information is somehow useful to you. Like I said, I am no expert, but I can give you information that I have learned in my psychology education. If you have any questions or want to discuss anything else, feel free to message me.
Reference:
Hansell, J., & Damour, L. (2005). Abnormal psychology. Hoboken, NJ: Wiley.
@phoenix25 (1541)
• United States
30 Aug 08
Wow. I would be really reluctant to try DBS too. How many different medications have you tried? Have they only tried antidepressants? Have you tried good, old-fashioned Lithium? Also, how many different doctors have you seen? It might benefit you to get a second opinion on treatment options before you go and try something as invasive as DBS.
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@rbailey83 (1428)
• Canada
30 Aug 08
thank you, i appreciate you taking the time to make this response, lol a lot of that i have learned throughout my discussions with doctors and psychiatrists. My psychiatrist diagnosed me with bi-polar type 2 with severe depression, i am always in a state of depression, it is just the severity of the depression that fluxuates. I went through a lot of intensive therapy while they were trying different medications, but for a reason unknow to all of my doctors and my psychiatrist, as well as the other psychiatrists he has talked to, i have been unresponsive to all the medications they have tried. They have started me on the last medication that they have to try, which still is doing nothing, and my psychiatrist is now wanting me to consider DBS (Deep Brain Stimulation) i know the details from my research, and it just bothers me more that it is still in the test stages for use with depression. I am not too keen on the process either, but i am not willing to continue to live the way i am, so at this point i will try anything, not much is worse than what i am already going through and the way things are now, i'll take the chances if i have to.
@Xdrowninghavocx (3117)
• United States
28 Aug 08
I just read a discussion recently that mentioned shock therapy. And I can honestly say that it has never crossed my mind. That kind of worries me, but I'm hoping that it worked for you. Were there any symptoms after the fact? I think the possible symptoms are what scares me the most. Personally, I would choose the meds. I think that is the way to go before going back to something serious like shock therapy. Only in worst case scenarios you should immediately seek ECT.
1 person likes this
@rbailey83 (1428)
• Canada
30 Aug 08
no symptoms afterwards, i went through all sessions but i was unresponsive after the first 2, the first two sessions had some very slight changes. My doctors have already given me the last medication they have an option with, i started that about a month and a half ago, and so far nothing has changed, there is an alternate treatment but it is still in its test stages for use with depression, it is called Deep Brain Stimulation
@snowy22315 (182184)
• United States
31 Aug 08
I think that is something you need to discuss iwht your psychiatrist. They would have better information about ECT and the intereractions with your medications. An excellent book if you want a good working knowledge about ECT is Shock by Kitty Dukakis and Larry Tyne. It takes you through the history of ECT, and how it has worked for Mrs. Dukakis. It is a really interesting treatis on the subject.
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@rbailey83 (1428)
• Canada
4 Sep 08
lol funny you should mention that book, i went into the college today to do some reasearch on all available treatments for severe cases of depression when unresponsive to meds, and that was one of the books i actually ended up reading through, has a lot of great and interesting info, i thought it was a great read and i did learn a lot of things that i didn't know before, not much that can help me right now, but i always like to learn new things so it was the highlight of my day
@dawnald (85146)
• Shingle Springs, California
28 Aug 08
I absolutely would have no clue about this, hope somebody else can be more helpful. But I was wondering if you had tried any treatments other than ECT and conventional medications? If this doesn't work for you, seeing a naturopath might be an alternative (not covered by insurance probably, that's one downside). My depression is pretty mild, I'd say, but I'm seeing a naturopath, and the treatment he's giving me is working pretty well.
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@phoenix25 (1541)
• United States
29 Aug 08
It sounds like you have been experiencing dysthymic disorder, otherwise known as minor depression. Major depressive disorder involves the occurrence of one or more major depressive episodes, which can be characterized by a variety of different symptoms. Dysthymic disorder or minor depression is characterized by 2 years or more of consistently depressed mood and along with other symptoms that are not severe enough to meet the diagnostic criteria for a major depressive episode. Generally, people with minor depression experience a depressed mood for most of the day, on most days, for at least 2 years along with at least 2 of the following symptoms: poor appetite or overeating, insomnia or hypersomnia (excessive sleeping), low energy or fatigue, low self-esteem, poor concentration or difficulty making decisions, or feelings of hopelessness. I would go over the diagnostic criteria for major depressive disorder, but it is very long. Basically, the symptoms of major depressive disorder are much more severe and intrusive of a person's daily life. ECT and antidepressants are generally used to treat major depressive disorder or other disorders that involve periods of major depression, such as bipolar I disorder. It's nice to hear that your naturapthy is working for you, but I'm not sure that it would work for a more severe mood disorder.
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