Separation of Church and State?

United States
October 12, 2008 11:33am CST
I've recently been reading a lot about differing interpretations of the separation of church and state. I've always believed that the concept means that government is to avoid supporting OR persecuting any religious organization. To me, that means no public funds supporting religious organizations and no endorsement of any religion by government or any publicly funded entity. Do you believe that the opposite is also true? Was it the intent of our Founding Fathers for churches to stay out of matters of governing? If so, how do you reconcile that with the beliefs of many churches that it is part of their mission to help select leaders who adhere to their beliefs and their morality? If not, do you think that it is the duty of pastors and clergy to speak out on political issues and endorse politicians that support the views of their Church?
4 people like this
6 responses
@xfahctor (14118)
• Lancaster, New Hampshire
12 Oct 08
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" that is in fact all the constitution has to say about the matter. the term seperation of church and state comes from a letter Jefferson wrote in response to an address from the Danbury Baptist Association, congratulating him upon his election as president. His intent is revealed later when an unedited draft is turned up, the unedited letter makes it clear why Jefferson drafted it. He wanted his political partisans to know that he opposed proclaiming fasts and thanksgivings, not because he was irreligious, but because he refused to continue a British practice that was an offense to republicanism. The exact phrases "wall of eternal separation between church and state" and "the duties of my station, which are merely temporal" are also telling. Under the advice of linoln, the references to thanksgiving and fasts were removed. The Supreme Court, later in history, in Reynolds v. United States stated "that it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the 1st amendment." refering to the letter.
3 people like this
@xfahctor (14118)
• Lancaster, New Hampshire
12 Oct 08
Good question. Constitutionaly, there is no grounds for the law in 2 aspects. First, there is the fact that congress has no authority to effect tax laws (over simpifying things) and secondly, the text only says that no law establishing religion or forbidding the practice of it. It leaves it pretty open but says nothing about what churches can say or not say. So we are left only with the supreme court ruling which is pretty broad in itself and seems to allude to it being improper, but not specificly ilegal, since the church is not the governemnt, what we have is the church endorsing a candidate, not the government endorsing a church. Perhaps in the next few years we can expect another supreme court case that will specificly address this. Until then, I think we're stuck with the laws laid out by the IRS, that don't specificly forbid churches from this practice, but only revoke a tax exempt status should they do so.
1 person likes this
• United States
12 Oct 08
So.. little sidetrack story here. When I was in college, I was dating a guy who chose to attend Oral Roberts University. Within a couple of weeks of his arrival there, he started writing me almost daily complaining bitterly about the dress code, the curfew, the required attendance at morning services - just about every rule he had to follow. Eventually, he broke one of the rules - staying out after curfew to attend a concert in town with friends - and was slapped on the wrist for it... and proceeded to complain how unfair it was. And my response was - y'know, you knew the rules when you signed up, dude. You agreed to follow them. You wanted a Christian education at ORU - following the rules is your trade-off. I guess that's the same way I feel about this issue. You want tax exempt status, you follow the rules - and that goes for ALL churches, not just those of the religious right. Thus - I don't have an issue with churches that invite all candidates for an office to address their congregations. I don't have an issue with churches that hold open voter registrations. I do have an issue with churches that specifically endorse a candidate - but I'm not quite sure where you draw the line. Is it an endorsement for the pastor to note that one of our community is running for office and ask for prayers? Thanks for making some excellent points, xfahctor. I always appreciate your research and thoughtful commentary even if I don't always agree with you.
1 person likes this
• United States
12 Oct 08
So I'm struck with a question reading this, xfachtor - given that the Constitution states that "Congress shall make no law ... prohibiting the free exercise thereof " - is the statute prohibiting churches from actively campaigning for or endorsing a political candidate a violation of the Constitution? After all, many people believe that trying to achieve a Christian government is part of their free exercise of religion. I know that the question mixes metaphors, so to speak, since technically, they are not prohibited because they are religions but because they choose tax exempt status. Do you believe that churches should be allowed to actively campaign? Do you think that they should forgo tax exempt status if they choose to do so?
1 person likes this
@spalladino (17891)
• United States
12 Oct 08
Actually, separation of church and state, according to the Constitution, states that Congress will make no law establishing a religion nor will they prohibit the free exercise of a religion. It does not address the actions of any church. Churches are free to express themselves in all areas of society and politics and to openly support whoever and whatever they choose. These decisions are up to the individual religious leaders.
• United States
12 Oct 08
That's also always been my reading of the Constitution. My understanding is that the prohibition on church campaigning comes from an IRS tax ruling that prohibits tax exempt institutions from engaging in partisan politics. Do you think that churches that choose to actively participate in political campaigns should have to give up their tax exempt status? I'll be right up front and say that I've got very mixed feelings on the whole issue - from whether churches should have tax exempt status at all to whether there should be restrictions on tax-exempt institutions in terms of political activity. I'm honestly soliciting opinions from people because I want to understand the thinking behind different positions on the issue. Thanks for your response!
1 person likes this
@mac1946 (1602)
• Calgary, Alberta
12 Oct 08
for those interested in history,thinking of church and government,think of the inquisition. Keep religion completely out of government,unfortunatly,that is like keeping lawyers out as well. As for the tax exemption,the roman chatholic's are the richest outfit in the world,and the others are not far behind,they can build new places anytime they wish and when you think of building a house,would it not be nice to be able to have one for the same price and not have to pay taxes till you choke? I just wish we could get an honest government,but then,I do a lot of dreaming.
@mac1946 (1602)
• Calgary, Alberta
13 Oct 08
I do agree with you about the people being the catolist,the main problem stems from the fact that the governments(at least the so called democratic ones)have made it so only the rich can run,it costs to much for the average citizen to pay for the advertizing needed to reach everyone. And at least here in Canada,you must pay a fee to show you have the money to run,so the average person,even with the knowledge and ability to run the country,can't. As you know,the saying,"they only shoot the honest politition"is true,for some reason that is fact,I wonder why?lol. Now,while I do agree with the fact the churches are known for helping the homeless and others,why is it that most of them can only do so with contributions from the public? Why is it,that all the money saved from tax exemption is sent to the head chuch and not used to benefit the people that"donate to the church every week?
1 person likes this
• United States
12 Oct 08
Thanks for the reminder of what on overly powerful church is capable of doing. I'd add to that the Salem witch trials and genocide against native and indigenous people throughout the world. I'd love to see an honest government, too, mac1946, and I don't see it happening any time soon. I support transparency as much as possible - but transparency comes with responsibility. Nothing is transparent if the voters don't take advantage of it to look through the window and see what's happening.
1 person likes this
• United States
12 Oct 08
The first people that came here were excaping governments that were run by religion. Our founding fathers wanted the same of the new country, and it was this way for a long time. But, in recent years that has changed, the republicans have tried to use churches to rally their base. The Bush administration created faith based inititives that used Taxpayer dollars to help communities. This helped Bush in 2004, and they will try to use them again in this year to help win. I don't believe this is a good idea, and I don't think that the government should ever support ANY religion. Because, if we support one then we will be forced to support, and I know wouldn't be a good idea.
1 person likes this
• United States
12 Oct 08
I assume that you mean if we support one, we would have to support all? By conferring tax exempt status on all churches, aren't we essentially doing that by not requiring that they pay taxes on contributed income? Just to be clear - I'm not suggesting that we should withdraw tax exempt status from all churches. I'm just playing devil's advocate.
1 person likes this
• United States
12 Oct 08
You are correct in saying that when you fund one, you fund them all, that is how our government works. If you change the law to allow for funding for one church, the rest can follow suite. I do agree to a point with the fact that taxexempt statues is like funding, but that is splitting hairs. When you have the government funding church program (like the faith based inititives), than you have entered a different world. Thanks for your response.
• United States
13 Oct 08
I'm on the fence about it, honestly. I know that many churches are strong community centers, and as such have a good chance of putting service where it needs to be. At the same time, I'm not comfortable with taxpayer money funding activities that are aimed at raising membership or proselytizing. One local church has used FBCO funds to train a grant writer who has applied for grants from private funders to do things like run a free lunch program, open a computer lab, offer tutoring for schoolchildren, and run an after school art program. One of my sons - who is not a member of the church - has volunteered to tutor there for over a year, and no one has made any attempt to convert him or bring him into the church. The church doesn't profit from this - the government's money was used to seed it by training someone how to find and qualify for private grants - and the community benefits. That kind of funding makes sense to me - and those funds were also available to secular organizations.
2 people like this
• United States
13 Oct 08
You're right, the separation of church and state is as you describe. However, the Constitution is only a starting point. Later decisions have broadened the separation to avoid mixing the political and the religious. I assume your question is pointed to towards the danger of losing non-profit status if a church takes a political opinion. Personally, I feel that is justified. As individuals, we should use whatever criteria we feel is appropriate to determine for ourselves who we will vote for. However, a church is not an individual, it's an institution that enjoys special privileges. Those privileges are subject to regulation by the government that gives them. If a church wishes to present itself as a political entity it must deal with the consequences of that behavior. Religion and government are dangerous bedfellows, to allow churches free political reign could be very detrimental to our society. It could also be beneficial, but I would rather the benefits be seen at the individual level and not the institutional level. On the other hand, the trend to the secular in the country is equally disturbing. The founding fathers were very clear about their feelings that religion was an important part of a free society. If we make everything secular we are losing a vital part of ourselves. But, a line has to be drawn somewhere. Churches (or whatever religious institution someone subscribes to) should not be in the business of telling people how to vote, only providing guidance on what people should consider when voting. But that's my personal opinion.
• United States
12 Oct 08
I believe that separation of church and state came about because of all the "problems" caused when the type of religion to be followed was dictated. Personally, its a good concept that still applies today. As far as the tax exempt status .. no, it no longer applies and should be changed. The tax exempt status should be changed and not be exempt because its a religion.