A question for pro life republicans?
By sharra1
@sharra1 (6340)
Australia
October 16, 2008 11:31pm CST
I understand your objection to abortion but I cannot understand why you do not allow it even on medical grounds. If the baby is severely deformed then you are inflicting a life time of pain on both the baby and the mother by insisting that it must be born, especially if the mother is poor and cannot care for it.
Neither the mother nor the baby are at fault here but something has clearly gone wrong. If the mother tries to care for the child and it dies then she risks being investigated for manslaughter just as the mothers of cot death babies were. So knowing that the baby will be unable to care for itself some doctors would recommend abortion.
Do you accept that abortion should be allowed in these situations? If not, how do you justify inflicting such pain and suffering on both the baby and the mother?
5 people like this
12 responses
@spalladino (17891)
• United States
17 Oct 08
What about Pre-eclampsia and hypertension Pro-lifers? Recent statistics indicate that 1 in 4,800 women in the United States of complications of pregnancy or childbirth. Instead of beating up on sharra1 for the example she used, why not answer the specific question regarding your views on abortion for medical reasons?
4 people like this
@sharra1 (6340)
• Australia
17 Oct 08
Thank you for the support. I am saying that if you know from early pregnancy that your child is going to be born profoundly disabled is it fair to say that the mother has to give birth to this child. It will have no quality of life and may even need to spend its life in hospital.
I believe that this sort of condition should be considered.
3 people like this
@irishidid (8687)
• United States
17 Oct 08
I don't see pre-eclampsia and hypertension as a medical reason to have an abortion. Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean there. You can have an uneventful pregnancy and still have things go wrong in the delivery room. I know from personal experience. Getting an abortion because it might happen makes no sense.
1 person likes this
@spalladino (17891)
• United States
17 Oct 08
Oops, I omitted the word "DIE" after "United States"...but I'm sure everyone could have figured that part out.
3 people like this
@irishidid (8687)
• United States
17 Oct 08
I don't force my beliefs on others. Obviously if a child is so deformed it is given a lower rate of life expectancy, I serious doubt any criminal investigation will be done if the mother has clearly taken the best care she can of the child. Your argument doesn't work there.
The question I have is what is the rate of abortions for medical reasons compared to abortions for not wanting the kid, don't want to get fat, etc. I suspect the selfish reasons outweigh the medical.
1 person likes this
@irishidid (8687)
• United States
17 Oct 08
First off, I'm pro choice. Just because you haven't heard it doesn't mean it never happens.
@emilyr629 (26)
• United States
17 Oct 08
I have never heard of someone having an abortion to not get fat! That's the kind of crazy statement that comes from most people who are pro-life.
I'm not saying abortion is the right answer, but women have the right to choose what happens to thier own bodies. You may not know the circumstance behind the abortion. Maybe pregnant teens who can't raise a child. Maybe someone stuck in an abusive relationship. Maybe someone was raped. Maybe adoption is not an option for these people.
I do however agree that they should ban partial birth abortions because that just might as well be murder. Other than that women have rights and they should keep them.
@redyellowblackdog (10629)
• United States
17 Oct 08
"I understand your objection to abortion but I cannot understand why you do not allow it even on medical grounds."
Only a tiny minority of pro-life people oppose abortion even on medical grounds. In my life time, even before Roe v Wade, all states to my knowledge, allowed abortion in the case of rape, incest, or for the medical health of the mother. Way back then they mostly could not determine much about the fetus or I'm sure abortion would have been allowed for severely deformed or ill fetus, too.
As for myself, I do agree with abortion for a fetus badly damaged enough it can not be expected to take care of itself.
Now, a question for you.
Do you realize that republican sociopaths actually encourage abortion on the grounds that abortion kills likely future democratic voters?
When you can get that into your mind as a reality, you will be starting down the path of true understanding of the political process.
1 person likes this
@redyellowblackdog (10629)
• United States
17 Oct 08
People who express disbelief that a sociopath claiming to be a republican would favor any democrat to abort their child rather than see that democrat raise a child as a democrat do not understand the meaning of the word sociopath. This is what sociopaths do. For sociopaths, the ends justify the means, always. Sociopaths have no feelings of guilt, ethics, or morality. Teaching one's competitor's in life bad habits that weaken them while at the same time convincing the competitor the bad habit is a 'good thing' is one of the ways sociopaths amuse themselves.
To your credit, good hearted, decent people often have a hard time believing such people really exist.
1 person likes this
@sharra1 (6340)
• Australia
17 Oct 08
You cannot be serious. Surely you are pulling my leg on this issue? I know I am cynical these days but are you suggesting that republicans are pro abortion if the parents fit some sort of stereotype of democrat voters? That is so sad and does not say much for the future of the human race. Are the other side just as bad?
I know I find the whole election campaign quite odd. I mean I understand fear campaigns we have them here but nothing like the one that McCain is running at the moment. It is quite bizzare.
3 people like this
@sharra1 (6340)
• Australia
17 Oct 08
By the way I am pro life. My deepest regret in life is that I never had children and now I cannot. Had I every managed to fall pregnant I would have regarded the child as a gift from God. Even so if I was told in the early weeks that my child was a lost cause. That it was so disabled it would never be a person and would probably require hospital care for its entire life then I would feel that I had no right to punish it with life.
It would break my heart but I would think of the child first and its quality of life. What quality of life can a vegetable have? How could I live watching this child day to day seeing what I had brought into the world. How could I? Mind you I would want to know why? What went wrong? How could this happen? I have read so many things about pollution in the modern world that my first suspect would be that something had polluted my body. It could be smoking, I have just given up, it could be a number of things but I don't think I could live with the child in that state. It just seems so cruel to keep the child alive.
3 people like this
@maximax8 (31046)
• United Kingdom
18 Oct 08
I love my second son even though he has spina bifida. He can now sit up but he is unlikely to be able to walk. He needs catheter care and much physiotheraphy. I didn't find out that my baby had spina bifida until 36 weeks pregnancy. At the fetal medical unit in a hospital in the morning I was offered an abortion but I said no way. In the afternoon I looked around a special care baby unit and it was a touching and emotional experience. I was told by a consultant that he had no ideal how badly my baby would be affected. In a month my baby was going to be born and I had lots of terrifying information to take on board. My baby son was born at home then went to a special care baby unit for three weeks. I am glad I gave my second son the chance of life and now he is a bright and happy sixteen month old toddler. I am pro-life but I respect other peoples choices.
1 person likes this
@xfahctor (14118)
• Lancaster, New Hampshire
17 Oct 08
IF there is NO VIABLE possibility the child will survive outside the womb, then it is a tragic thing and perhaps than an a termination of the pregnancy early on is best. However, that is the only time I would advocate the abortion. To me it isn't about a woman's body, it is about a child's life. Many can argue to comfort themselves with their beliefs that abortion is acceptable by saying "well, we really don't know when life begins". However, if we don't know, do you really want to be wrong if it turns out that it is indeed life from conception? that's not a chance I feel comfortable making a decision on and erring on the wrong side. I would rather err on the side of life. I would much rather be wrong and have medical or religious authorities say, oops, I guess we were wrong, it isn't life...then to be wrong when someone discovers it indeed was life.
1 person likes this
@sharra1 (6340)
• Australia
17 Oct 08
That is what I was talking about. The pro lifers were saying that nothing would make them agree with an abortion. I still think that it is a woman's choice. If she has committed a sin then it is her sin and she will face judgment for it. It is not your place to persecute her for her choices.
2 people like this
@mods196621 (3652)
• Philippines
17 Oct 08
When we say abortion it is taking away the fetus inside the mothers womb by force. Fetus averaging of few months only carried by mother. It is God gifts in every woman and only God have all the right to do whatever He likes. If it may cause of suffering to both mother and the baby, which, do we think it is right to abort still I"m not in favor. Let us allow the baby see the wonder of the world. We do"nt know his future and as I"ved said earlier God is the owner of our life. In our strong faith a sudden changes may occur instantly and there is no impossible in Him. Pain and suffering is here only temporarily. :)
@sharra1 (6340)
• Australia
18 Oct 08
I am in fact pro life but I believe that every woman should have the right of choice and that it is between the mother and God as to how her behavior and choices are dealt with. We do not have the right to force our view of life on someone else.
2 people like this
@mods196621 (3652)
• Philippines
18 Oct 08
Well we all have the right to choose the pathway of our lives according to our faith and beliefs. It is between us and the Creator"s covenant. If we know our descision lighten up our problems I think God will allow us to do our way. With His guidance, lets us be happy to do our daily task.:)
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
17 Oct 08
Better living through Eugenics? Margaret Sanger and Adolf Hitler would be proud.
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
18 Oct 08
I guess the entire roster of Special Olympics atheletes should have just been aborted.
@ronaldinu (12422)
• Malta
17 Oct 08
I am not a republican since I am alien to US politics. So if I have understood you perfectly you are justifying abortion on the grounds that a physically handicapped baby should not be allowed to be born. I don't agree! Hitler had a similar idea with his obsession of a pure race and wanted to get rid of Jews, blacks and the others. We all know what Hitler has done. I think that a deformed baby has a right to live because he or she is human. Who are we to decide whether it has the right to live or not? It is true that the mother might not be able to take care of the child but than social services and adoption should be considered but not abortion in my opinion.
@sharra1 (6340)
• Australia
17 Oct 08
No I am not saying that a disabled child should not be born I am referring specifically to a child that will never be able to function as a human being and yes they can tell this during scans of the mother during pregnancy. I am not a doctor but I am aware that they can tell when there is something seriously wrong with the child and suggest abortion.
This is a very rare situation so it is not likely to happen very often.
3 people like this
@Springlady (3986)
• United States
17 Oct 08
Hi sharra,
I am totally against abortion because it is taking a human life. ALL human life is precious and we cannot be the ones to decide whether a baby should live or die. That decision belongs only to God.
God views every life as precious. He has a plan for every single life and we need to trust in Him. I know of many people with deformities, etc who make a wonderful difference in this world! God uses everyone for His glory!
All babies have the right to a life. We just need to trust in God.
God bless.
@jend80 (2071)
• United Kingdom
19 Oct 08
if God vierws every life as precious why do miscarages happen, and how come he was so keen to (according to the Bible) deliberetly kill David and Bathsheba's unborn child purely to punish the parents?
@Guardian208 (1095)
• United States
17 Oct 08
You bring up a very intriguing subject.
I see two arguments here and neither of them apply to me because raising a handicapped child is something that we would embrace. We have some severely handicapped family members and though they would not have a quality of life that you or I might appreciate, they love their life none the less.
But these are the arguments as I understand them.
What does "severely deformed" mean? It may mean something different to me than it does to you. Who gets to decide what the definition of "severely deformed" is? If I decide that we want to raise a "deformed" child will my wife be forced to abort it? What about a severely deformed person who is deformed from a car accident, or Steven Hawkins for that matter who is deformed from a disease? Do we euthanize them? If you believe that life begins in the womb, then there is no difference between aborting a deformed baby in the womb and killing Steven Hawkins because of his deformity.
That argument works on the other side of life as well. What about the very sick and bed ridden elderly? What if their bodies have been damaged by age to the point of being useless, vegetative? Do we euthanize them as well? I know many would argue that this argument is off point, but it really isn't. Look at anything we as a society decide to allow. It never stays static. It always expands and becomes more and more inclusive. The danger is that the definition of "severely deformed" would grow to include more and more infirmities. Our doctor advised us to about our middle son because he thought he might has Down Syndrome. We didn't do that of course and he is now a happy, healthy 12 year old. The doctor was wrong!
The other argument is that we can not predict with any degree of certainty that whatever the deformity is, will not be "fixed" with modern medicine. It was not that long ago when blind people were committed to institutions and were thought to be nothing more than a burden to society and the family. Sames thing with mental illness, amputees, mute people etc.
Clearly this is a very emotional and complex issue. I certainly would wish that no one would ever have to face this decision. But the way our law reads currently, it is not a problem.
@sharra1 (6340)
• Australia
18 Oct 08
I would not agree that pro choice people see it that way. We have abortion in Australia but it must be before a certain age. I am in fact pro life but I believe that every woman should have the right of choice and that it is between the mother and God as to how her behavior and choices are dealt with. I would never force someone else to follow my life code. I believe that is totally wrong.
2 people like this
@Guardian208 (1095)
• United States
18 Oct 08
Thank you for your follow-up post. What is your definition of Pro-life? Perhaps that is where we are missing each other. When I refer to "Pro-life" I am referring to the life in the womb. At any stage. I believe that life begins at conception. To me, "Pro-life" means the support and protection of life, ALL life. So it really isn't about choice, it is about the understanding of when life begins. If life begins at conception, then abortion at any stage is wrong.
The concern that I have with setting a gestational date for when life begins is the improvements in modern medicine. Once upon a time, 32 week births were considered dangerous. Then babies started being born earlier and earlier. Now the most premature healthy births have taken place at just 21 weeks, just over 5 MONTHS of gestation or almost 4 months early. As our medical treatments improve, the viability of the pre-born baby continues to improve. So we will have to keep redefining when life begins.
I know that this is a delicate subject and we are not all going to agree. Thank you for keeping this conversation civil.
@blackmantra_x (2732)
• Philippines
18 Oct 08
Good day.. This is indeed a very delicate issue and is really between pro - life and pro - abortion. As men we base our decision on things that we can calculate rather than predict. If a fetus is detected to have genetic deformities that is something we can calculate however the future of the child when born is something we can only predict.
Now, since the life on the child in utero solely depends it's continuity on the mother, it seem to give her the ultimate right to choose whether to bear it or not. I say seem because I would disagree. Maybe in the prehistoric time or civilization this maybe true but not in our times where law and justice prevails. As a part of society every men, women and child must conform to their law and that law even protects the innocence that can't even speak up for their rights.
I believe that when a woman conceive on her own choice of doing then the life produce following it is sacred. I mean we know our responsibilities and our accountability. Yes, we calculate the pain and suffering that maybe brought about by unfortunate conception but above all we must also respect it's right to live.
1 person likes this
@starryeyes90 (108)
• United States
17 Oct 08
Ask Stephen Hawking if his mother should have aborted him. Should we kill children who develop disabilities after they are born, like autism? I just don't think that there is a good argument for abortion. Killing unborn babies is still killing babies. I think that most mothers will love their babies even if they do have disabilities, and while it may cause some heartache for mothers, can you really justify being selfish enough to say I don't want to deal with a child who has a disability?
@sharra1 (6340)
• Australia
17 Oct 08
I did not say kill disabled people and Stephen Hawking is not a good example since he is suffering from an illness called ALS, that attacks people after they are born and causes paralysis over many years and was not prevented from taking care of himself until later in life. He was also able to have an excellent quality of life.
I was referring to children who will never function as human beings, will never be able to care for themselves, and will never have any quality of life. The real worry for many parents who take care of them is that they will outlive their parents and who will take care of them then.
Nor did I say the mother had to terminate them, I was suggesting that she should have the choice.
3 people like this
@spalladino (17891)
• United States
17 Oct 08
There is a condition called anencephaly that you might want to look into. Anencephalic babies are missing most of their brains and spinal cords. These babies will never have awareness of their surroundings, will never develop or have any quality of life. This condition can be seen in an ultrasound. Do you champion these very severe cases as well?
5 people like this