I'm about to be homeless...
@chameleonsdream (1230)
United States
November 23, 2008 4:58pm CST
No, this isn't a cry for help. I'm frustrated and trying to figure out any way that this makes any kind of sense at all.
First, though, I should commend my city's health department on one thing. I'm currently typing this in a hotel room, courtesy of the city's health department and one good worker who couldn't stomach the thought of two families getting through a frigid weekend in a house with no heat. How we got here is a longer story.
We live in a beautiful older house, a three-decker with one furnace to heat the entire building. It has its problems, but overall, the building is a working building with sound plumbing, sound wiring and sound structure. It's an ideal apartment for my family - on the first floor, with four bedrooms, within walking distance to public transportation and half a dozen grocery stores. Because the heat is provided for the entire building by one system, our heat, hot water and cooking gas was included in our rent.
Last May, the gas company turned off the owner's gas for non-payment. At the same time, he informed us that he no longer owned the building, and his cell phone number stopped working. The gas company refused to turn the gas back on without a payment of over $3,000 - unpaid bill, reinstatement fee and a security deposit. I've been trying to find out who is responsible for the building since then and run into roadblocks at every turn.
Two months ago, a plumbing blockage made me call the Board of Health about it. Several neighbors also called the Board of Health. Within hours, there was a plumber at the house removing the blockage (I hadn't been able to get a plumber to do it at any cost because I don't own the house and the blockage was between the house and the street, thus they insisted that they needed the owner's permission in case the repair involved digging up the driveway). At that point, the health department and I both started separate quests to find out who owns and who is responsible for upkeep on the building.
Long story short - the house has not actually gone into foreclosure yet. The building is still owned by my old landlord, but he hasn't responded to phone calls or certified mail, and the city is considering taking him to court. The bank that holds the mortgage is not legally responsible for providing utilities, and since they don't actually own the building yet, they are not responsible for upkeep or for honoring our leases. The house is legally in limbo - chances are good that the owner is not even in the country any longer.
Because of this, the city's best solution - and the one that they'll probably follow - is to condemn the building and move the two families that live there into the emergency shelter system. This whole thing seems completely ridiculous to me. Because I'm not currently paying rent, I'm quite willing to take responsibility for the heating bill - but I can't pay off the past due amount left by the old landlord (which we already paid to him as part of our rent), nor can I cover a deposit of well over a thousand dollars to get the heat turned back on. The gas company, however, isn't willing. The city says its hands are tied - and they can't afford to pay what the gas company wants either (not that I think it's their responsibility - it's not). Tomorrow, I'll be contacting Legal Aid, our local community action council (which handles LIHEAP - the fuel assistance program) and a state rep who is doing a lot of work with families in foreclosed homes.
In the meantime, I'm just wondering... how does this make any kind of sense at all? What kind of protections do you think there should be for tenants in foreclosed homes or in homes where the landlord has just walked away?
4 people like this
19 responses
@newtondak (3946)
• United States
24 Nov 08
In most states, it is illegal for them to turn off any "heat-related" utilities when the temperature drops below a certain temperature - regardless of whether there is a past due bill or not.
@newtondak (3946)
• United States
24 Nov 08
You would think that the finance company holding the mortgage would be willing to work something out where you could pay your rent to them instead of to the landlord - at least they would get some of their money that way.
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
I'd think so, too, newtondak, but what I'm told is that the banks/finance companies don't want to be landlords. They apparently would rather have the house sit empty so that it a) is a more attractive target to vandals, b) is more likely to suffer damage related to neglect and c) suffer from the kind of deterioration that inevitably happens when a property is untenanted. The whole situation is frustrating, and was long before it involved me personally.
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
It is in Massachusetts, too. Unfortunately, the shutoff was during warm weather, and the law doesn't require them to turn the utilities back on if there is still a past due bill. I may be able to negotiate something with them to write off the old bill since it wasn't our responsibility. If we had just moved into the house, they couldn't charge us the past due amount, but we're a little shakier because we lived here during the time that the bill was run up. Thanks for your response, newtondak.
@Taskr36 (13963)
• United States
24 Nov 08
I am so sorry for your situation. I'm sick of hearing how we should feel bad for the owners who took out loans they couldn't afford to pay back. The real victims are tenants like you and I who moved into places not knowing that our landlords were deadbeats who weren't paying their mortgages. My wife and I were lucky when it happened to us because the bank served us with papers two days after we moved in informing us of the situation. The guy serving us said we were lucky because they only try once and tenants often have no idea that a place is being foreclosed on. We had already paid our first and last month's rent so we stayed for two months and didn't pay another dime to that woman.
Laws may differ from state to state, but in Florida, there are NO laws that protect the tenants. My wife asked the legal aid department at her college and they said that all we could do was keep paying rent and that we were required to hold up our end of the lease even though the bank could take possession and evict us without notice. An eviction supposedly means they take your things out of the building and put them in storage, but the legal aid said they typically dump people's things on the lawn. We used an agency to find our current place that checks out the owners to be sure that everything is up to date with their payments.
@Taskr36 (13963)
• United States
29 Nov 08
It's a fair assumption as my wife and I came very close to buying a house when we found out the place we were renting was going into foreclosure. We actually thought about buying that specific condo since it was going to a shortsale for $180K after the woman bought it for 350K a few years ago. In the end we decided we didn't like Miami enough to make that kind of commitment here. We're just staying here till she's done getting her DMA and then we're moving back to Orlando where we will most likely look into buying a house. Either way, housing prices should stay low for about a year so we wouldn't have been able to make a profit if we sold it one year after buying it.
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
You were lucky to find out so quickly and to have found an agency that does those checks. We'd been in our apartment almost two years, and I really hate losing this place. Here in Massachusetts, the bank/finance company is responsible for upholding the terms of the lease agreement - but only after foreclosure. Since foreclosure hasn't actually even started on this house, we're in a weird place with it. Thanks for your response.
@Taskr36 (13963)
• United States
30 Nov 08
Obviously you care a great deal otherwise you would not have responded to me twice within minutes of each other. I'm starting to think your infatuation with me is becoming unhealthy. Is this going to stay on mylot or should I be thinking about a getting a restraining order against you?
@oldboy46 (2129)
• Australia
24 Nov 08
This is a terrible thing to happen to anyonre and more so since it is winter and no doubt freezing cold. At least someone had the decency to move you into accommodation for the present time and although it is probably not as good as your own home, at least it is a roof over your heads.
I am not sure of your laws but you are doing the right thing in contacting Legal Aid about the situation as they might be able to help you. I would think that the owner of the building is responsible for the debt but as the bank is about to foreclose on him, no doubt he has no intention of paying the heating bill. I would think that there is nothing that can be done until the bank actually forecloses and sells the property. At that time the heating bill will be taken into account when final settlement is made although by the sounds of it, there will be nothing left when the bank takes what is owed to them.
It is the same situation here in Australia with unpaid utilities bills as the company will very rarely reconnect until the old bill has been settled, even if there is a new owner. It is their way of protecting themselves and whilst not fair on you, the currrent owner has actually been paid for it as that cost was included in the rent you were paying.
Good luck and hopefully it will be resolved to your satisfaction very soon.
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
Thanks for the good wishes, oldboy46. You're right - it is unfair, and technically, the gas company can't hold a new owner responsible for a bill run up by the old owner. Maybe with a lawyer behind me, I can make them turn it on - but it's really a stopgap measure. I'm coming to terms with the fact that I'll have to move - it's not going to be easy, but I'll have to do it.
@thedogshrink (1266)
• United States
24 Nov 08
Oh Chameleons I'm so sorry you are going thru this! 
I'm glad you are talking to legal aid tomorrow. I feel this should be fixable, at least temporarily, with the gas company, because it is in the missing landlord's name, and with some proof from the city, it seems they should go after him for the past due, and start a new account for you.
After all, if I start to rent a home where I pay the utilities myself, but the person who just moved out didn't pay their bill, I am not held responsible for their bill, and instead I start my own account with the utilities on my own. How can they not do that?
If I come there and decide to buy the house, and take over the landlord responsibilities, I am not accountable to the gas company for the past due from someone else!
When I lived in Philadelphia, I rented a house where I paid all utilities, even water. Well our water was cut off because the land lord had forgotten to pay the bill before we moved in, and we didn't know. When I went to the water company, I just paid a portion to turn it on immediately and they told me to bring in my lease, showing I now paid the water bill and when I moved in, and from there, they separated the bills, and I was not responsible for the bill from before I moved in, [i]even if my landlord continued to not pay that old portion.
[/i]
It seems your situation is trickier, since the landlord is gone, and the bill is so high, but I would think the same remedy would apply.
It may be that it takes a lawyer, state or city representative or something like that to force the gas company to be reasonable, but I can't understand why this would not be worked out this way.
Please keep us posted.
I'm glad you are talking to legal aid tomorrow. I feel this should be fixable, at least temporarily, with the gas company, because it is in the missing landlord's name, and with some proof from the city, it seems they should go after him for the past due, and start a new account for you.
After all, if I start to rent a home where I pay the utilities myself, but the person who just moved out didn't pay their bill, I am not held responsible for their bill, and instead I start my own account with the utilities on my own. How can they not do that?
If I come there and decide to buy the house, and take over the landlord responsibilities, I am not accountable to the gas company for the past due from someone else!
When I lived in Philadelphia, I rented a house where I paid all utilities, even water. Well our water was cut off because the land lord had forgotten to pay the bill before we moved in, and we didn't know. When I went to the water company, I just paid a portion to turn it on immediately and they told me to bring in my lease, showing I now paid the water bill and when I moved in, and from there, they separated the bills, and I was not responsible for the bill from before I moved in, [i]even if my landlord continued to not pay that old portion.
[/i]
It seems your situation is trickier, since the landlord is gone, and the bill is so high, but I would think the same remedy would apply.
It may be that it takes a lawyer, state or city representative or something like that to force the gas company to be reasonable, but I can't understand why this would not be worked out this way.
Please keep us posted. @thedogshrink (1266)
• United States
24 Nov 08
I think they still shouldn't be able to deny you a new account, just because you lived there while the bill wasn't being paid -- your name was not on that account, and you did not have access to it, so you were not able to pay it.
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
That's the route I'm going to try next, with hopefully some extra clout of some legal aid lawyers behind me. I'll probably eventually have to move anyway, but if I can get the heat turned back on, at least I can take the time to find a place where I want to live instead of having to take something that doesn't meet our needs. Thanks for your good wishes.
@spalladino (17891)
• United States
24 Nov 08
I'm so sorry that you and your family are in such a bad position because of this terrible person and I do hope you're able to get some help. Situations like yours are probably becoming more common and I really do think that every state needs to take steps to protect renters NOW, instead of later. Putting a temporary hold on foreclosures when properties are rented is one thing but you've brought to light an entirely different problem. The only thing I can suggest aside from what you already plan to do is for you to contact the media. There are probably others in situations similar to yours. Good luck.
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
You're right. I talked about this a little bit before when another member started a discussion a few months ago about a sheriff who was refusing to carry out evictions in foreclosed buildings. My biggest reason for starting this discussion is really to make people realize that those effects of the failing economy that most people think are "in the future" are something that many of us - working poor, especially - are already facing. The fallout hurts a lot more than "irresponsible people" - it overwhelmingly falls on the backs of the working poor, people who are barely hanging on by the skin of their teeth already.
I ran into an interesting bit of information online this morning under the heading of 20 Questions on Civil Justice (you can read the whole 20 questions here: http://justlists.wordpress.com/2008/09/12/20-questions-from-a-2008-social-justice-quiz/ ) The one that caught my attention was this one:
[b]
In how many of the more than 3,000 cities and counties in the US can a full-time worker who earns the minimum wage afford to pay rent and utilities on a one-bedroom apartment? In no city or county in the entire USA can a full-time worker who earns minimum wage afford even a one-bedroom rental. The US Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) urges renters not to pay more than 30 percent of their income in rent. HUD also reports the fair market rent for each of the counties and cities in the US. Nationally, in order to rent a two-bedroom apartment, one full-time worker in 2008 must earn $17.32 per hour. In fact, 81 percent of renters live in cities where the Fair Market Rent for a two-bedroom rental is not even affordable with two minimum-wage jobs. [Source: Out of Reach 2007-2008, April 7, 2008, National Low-Income Housing Coalition.][/b]
The killer in my case, of course, is that we have been paying our rent (more than 60% of our income) and keeping up on the utilities in our name - and here we are.
And to repeat something I said above - as bad as he sounds considering this situation, my landlord is not a terrible person. He is a person who got in over his head with expenses that he didn't expect - an apartment that went unrented for months, a tenant that didn't pay rent, repairs that he didn't expect to have to make, heating bills that were nearly triple what he'd been led to expect. He was good enough not to evict us and to work with us when we had problems paying the rent after my roommate's stroke last year, and the year before when Social Security screwed up his disability payments for six months. We had our rent up to date and had been paying it on time for months when this happened, but I'm sure that our troubles didn't make it any easier for him either. I know that he went through his personal savings to pay the mortgage during the months he was accepting partial rent from us. I'm not condoning what he did, but I can't condemn him either. Thanks for your good thoughts and good wishes.
@spalladino (17891)
• United States
24 Nov 08
Well, you're right, he doesn't sound like a heartless monster...everyone is being squeezed...but he's blocking efforts to help you now by being out of touch so I do hope he steps up to the plate soon so something can be worked out before the building is condemned. You and your family will definitely be in my prayers.
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
Thanks, spalladino. Prayers are most definitely appreciated.
@Shellyann36 (11384)
• United States
24 Nov 08
Oh goodness, I am so sorry to hear of your problems. I hope that you will find a place to live. I know how hard it is to be in this situation. I have seen similar things happen to two friends of mine. One friend was renting a house and was kicked out by the sheriffs department for foreclosure. All the while, they were paying the monthly rent payments. Nothing could be done. My other friends were in a house that they were "renting to own" the rental company manager took the money from them and pocketed it instead of making the monthly payment. The owner of the house was in the military and stationed overseas. The house went into foreclosure and both the owner and my friends were out of money and a house. I hope that things will work out for you and that you will find a reasonable place to live. Our thoughts are with you.
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
Thanks for the comment and the sympathy, Shellyann. Honestly, when I hear stories like that it makes me so angry. These are the stories that should be in the newspapers and on television to show people that the "mortgage crisis" affects far more than bank executives making millions of dollars and greedy landlords who are trying to make a lot of money and scam people. Your good thoughts are appreciated.
@megaplaza (1441)
• Nigeria
24 Nov 08
i will be having that kind of problem by january next year if i cant get accommodation when i go back to school, then i will be homeless
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
I wish you luck, megaplaza. I'm sure that something will work out for you.
@alindahaw (1219)
• Philippines
24 Nov 08
Oh dear, this sounds serious. I sorry to hear about your predicament. I would be very upset if I were in your place right now. Maybe you should find a lawyer who can help you sort out the legal intricacies involved in this situation. Tenants of foreclosed homes are protected under the law so you should seek legal advice on this matter.
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
Thanks for your response, alindahow. I'm planning to talk to Legal Aid this morning once I get back home. I know what my rights are, but enforcing them is a different story. I'm hoping a lawyer will have a little more clout.
@jalucia (1431)
• United States
24 Nov 08
I have to say that these days, your situation is not unique. There are many tenants going through the same thing. Landlords are letting their properties go to waste and thinking about the dollar bill first. I don't know of anything specific that you can do about it. I know a couple of families who have been living in a house rent free for over a year, because it has been forclosed on - in two separate instances. One thing that I do know is that if your landlord does not own the house, you should not be paying him rent. And, since you're not paying him rent, the best thing that you can do is save that rent money for when you have to relocate/move. And, it looks like it's time for you to move. I know that it is a giant hassle to be forced out of somewhere, without any say - to pick up your family and belongings and move because of no fault of your own. But, as a renter, you can move and totally wash your hands of the filthy situation of the foreclosed property.
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
You're right, of course, jalucia. There is a brighter face to it, and as kennyrose said in her response, God never closes a door without opening a window. It's something my mother has always said, too, so I'm sure that something good will come of it all eventually. And of course, at least my children are all older - my youngest is 15. I don't know what I'd be feeling if they were little, like my neighbor's. The one thing that will work for her is that since she has children under five, the city will put her right at the top of the emergency housing list.
@jonesy123 (3948)
• United States
23 Nov 08
I'm sorry to hear this happened to you and your family. This is a terrible situation to be in especially at this time of the year. I have not idea what the rules are but a tenant should not be without protection like that. I hope you guys get it all sorted out soon, and since you like the place, that you can move in there again soon. I'll keep you guys in my prayers. What a mess!
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
Thank you, Jonesy. I think prayers and best wishes are the best help I could get right about now. I really do want to find a way to keep this apartment if possible... part of the problem is that there are another half dozen homes on our street alone that are in various stages of foreclosure. This really is a problem that affects so many people.
@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
24 Nov 08
I'm sorry to hear that you are going through this. I hope that everything gets better for you soon.
As for housing laws they vary from state to state so much it's awful. There really needs to be some federal guidelines for these types of situations. I did property management and I seen so many slumlords while in housing court it was nuts. Our mayor the whacko that he is took city money to rent billboards and put slumlords on them to let the city know who to stay away from. I would start with legal aid and if they are unable to help you, if you have a local college that has a law department usually the law students will help people pro-bono just to get experience.
Let us know how you make out please. Good luck!
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
Your mayor may be whacko, but I kinda like that tactic. I'll be talking with legal aid tomorrow, one way or another, and with a couple of contacts that my daughter has in the state government. Thanks for the good wishes, Zeph, and I'll keep folks updated as I can.
@DIAMONDSNECSTASY (87)
• United States
24 Nov 08
TAKE A COPY OF THAT BILL TO A PLACE WHERE THEY PAY FOR YOUR ELECTRIC ( ONCE ) ..I KNOW THEY HAVE ONE LOCATIED IN RIVERSIDE ...I BELIEVE IT Has to do with liheap ..energy assistance .. MAYBE THEY CAN HELP YOU ..
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
They're the ones that I'll be calling tomorrow, Diamond. Thanks for your suggestion.
@gaylesglimpses (164)
• United States
24 Nov 08
First, I am sorry that you are going through this. If the landlord has disappeared there is a possibility that this will be a legal quagmire. Hopefully Legal Aid will have some solutions. In the end, they may well tell you to move. Even after the bank forecloses there may be the question of unpaid taxes or other bills left by the deadbeat landlord. It's certainly not fair to you that this happened and it must be scary. I hope it can get sorted out quickly.
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
You're right, Gayle. I'm sure that we'll end up having to move. I'd love to see some kind of homestead act where tenants in a building could take over payments on a mortgage or receive special consideration for a loan in a building that they inhabit. Mortgage payments and taxes combined on this house would be just a bit over half the rent that we'd been paying, but we could never save enough for a reasonable down payment. Thanks for your response.
@gaylesglimpses (164)
• United States
24 Nov 08
I feel so badly for you. No time of year is good to be homeless but this time of year pulls at your heart strings. Is there any chance for a community based fundraiser? Maybe a local church would let you use their hall for a huge bake sale or rummage sale? If the media promoted it that might get the funds you need to get a deposit. Then if you do move the deposit could go to a charity. I don't know. It's just an idea. I sure hope everything works out.
@chameleonsdream (1230)
• United States
24 Nov 08
You touch my heart, Gayle. It makes me feel better to know that there are people out there who care. I'm a survivor and always have been. One way or another, I'll work something out. Thank you for your kind thoughts.
@KrauseHome (36447)
• United States
1 Jan 09
Wow!! I hope by now you are further along with this situation, and they have been able to get you moved to a safer place to live with heat, etc. This is so Crazy that people can do things like this, and never held responsible until people like you have to start making complaints of some sort. Personally I know that it may seem like all is lost, and that life is not fair, but Good things will come to you when you are doing the footwork, and in time this person will have to pay for all the problems he has caused.
@irisheyes (4370)
• United States
24 Nov 08
This might be a shot in the dark but I was once a caseworker and when oddball situations like this occurred (and they did from time to time), organizations such as the Salvation Army and Catholic Charities often were able to step in and negotiate something. The people affected didn't have to be on welfare or involved with their organization. They would try whatever it took to keep people in their homes and the utility companies often sat down and listened to them when they wouldn't negotiate with the individuals involved. Just a thought.
@cher913 (25782)
• Canada
24 Nov 08
actually, yes it does make sense to me. it would seem that you are caught between a rock and a hard place. this is because the owner of your house that you are renting still actually owns it and until the bank can start forclosure proceedings, the city and whom ever else, well they just cant do anything. there is a fine line between all of this. glad you are somewhere safe and warm.
i think you are right to consult a lawyer to get at least some money back that you can possibly use for a downpayment for your next rental. also contact your alderman (your member of parliment, sorry, i am in canada but you can get what i mean.)
@irishidid (8687)
• United States
24 Nov 08
It's a horrible thing to do through and not one I would wish on anyone. Having worked in hotels I've seen a number of families uprooted and having to live in hotels for a number of months until something more suitable was found.
With the number of empty foreclosed homes that are left empty and vulnerable to theft, arson, etc. I have long thought it would be of benefit to all parties if they opened them up to rent if even for the short term.
@scarletwitch12 (562)
• Philippines
24 Nov 08
Obviously, there isn't much protection for you guys! I feel bad about your problem but I guess the only thing you can possibly do is to find another apartment building to rent. I really don't see that issue clearing up anytime soon and in the meantime, you and your family need a place to stay. It's like you are kept hostage in a situation you are not even responsible for! That is so unfair.
