Do you believe that your 'religion' exempts you from following the law?

And I would agree with you that in most cases, disobeying the law would be wrong. Just saying that there are exceptions. It will be interesting to see how the proposition 8 challenge plays out...

I feel that the Nazi situation is like the segregation situation - not good, not right, another horrible example of inequality getting its way and having its hold over people. One group thought they were better and aimed to exterminate another group - for no valid reason. You may be right and there might be laws some places that actually were designed to discriminate against certain groups - actually I know of one right now - the ban on gay marriage that people who are for equality are working hard to overturn. I still maintain that a law made purely for safety reasons isn't and wasn't designed to discriminate against anybody, based on any grounds.

Ok. You are talking about two different things. Blond HAIR is just a hair color. Nobody would say you can't go inside if you have blond hair. The color of somebody's hair doesn't cause trouble with identifying anybody, nor does it pose a security risk. The law states everybody has to take off a head covering. There's no exception FOR religion that goes along with this law. There's no exception to this law for gender, race, or other protected groups either. I don't see a law which is there for security and safety having anything to do with religion, and there's no reason to change it FOR religion. That was the point of why I started this discussion. Nobody has yet given a valid reason for why religion should be above the law. Do you know why? Because it shouldn't be. Putting religion above the law is a violation of everybody else's rights. The hair argument you mention would be discriminatory unless someone could dye their hair right then and there. Either way, giving the same law to everybody makes everybody equal. The whole argument about how blacks were not equal doesn't fit either. I think THAT was wrong, to not consider another race equal. Every race is EQUAL. Nobody needs to be separated - AGAINST THEIR WILL. I have NEVER thought that was okay because it's not like they wanted to be separated. HOWEVER, if you CHOOSE to SEPARATE YOURSELF because your religious beliefs are different than other people's, that is on YOU. It is not up to other people to cater to your choice to engage in things that only have to do with your chosen religion. That has nothing to do with government, the laws, or other people. Other people have to give you exceptions or care? Why? Other people did not force you to make the choice you made. Plenty of people make unpopular choices and suffer the consequences. I don't feel sorry for someone who does that. She made her bed, she can lie in it. I don't want religious people to 'shut up and conform to the rest of society'. What I do want is for them to follow the same laws, regardless of religion. I also don't want them to try to convert me and everyone else because 'their religion tells them to'. That's all. I never said 'don't believe in your religion'. What you do in your private life and what you believe in your heart doesn't affect me. Harrassing or badgering me or not following a law because you think your religion exempts you DOES affect me. Equality IS 'everyone subject to the same laws'. Otherwise things are not equal. Either way, this woman had the choice to not go in the courthouse. Like I told someone else, she was not dragged in kicking and screaming. Any mature respectful individual would choose not to go in if it was going to cause them an undue hardship to follow the law. At least this is my understanding.

Would you say the black people sitting at white lunch counters were going about things the wrong way? They were breaking the law. They were causing a scene - a HUGE scene, in fact. And they got a whole heck of a lot of negative attention. Was that the wrong way to go about it? What do you think they should have done instead? I do not know of a single law that has been changed because someone wrote a letter to their senator and said, "I don't like this law. Would you mind changing it?" You HAVE to draw attention and make a scene if you want people to notice an injustice. That is how things get changed. Enough people notice.

There is a huge difference between a law enforced on SOME people because of race, and a law enforced on EVERYONE for security. Apples and oranges.

I've committed civil disobedience for disability rights and to end war. There are other things I would do it for, too, but have never had the opportunity.

So you're talking about more like your own morality might alter what you consider 'right' in the situation of NOT allowing an abused child to go back to their abusive parent. I would tend to agree with this. Then again, I would also ask for leniency for someone who was caught stealing FOOD because they were unemployed, got evicted, and their children were homeless and starving. See what I'm saying here? Sometimes desperate situations cause people to do things that may not be considered right under the law. This isn't related to the religious law bending I was talking about in the opener though. To me the person was facing certain traumatic and horrible circumstances, they did what any parent who loved their family would try to do. I may have committed civil disobedience from time to time too. If I DO feel like other people have been given an exemption (for an invalid reason) and I have not, then there are times I WILL speak up. I have told people to do their jobs or that I will find a way to get them fired. Even if it is a threat without much firepower behind it - a blind threat - sometimes it works in my favor and the person is afraid enough to 'do their job' - WHICH is all I expect of somebody, especially somebody who works for the GOVERNMENT! It's so frustrating, as taxpayers we pay the salaries of those people, how dare they putz around and find excuses to collect a paycheck and not do their jobs? LOL! Care to fill me in on any of the reasons you have committed civil disobedience? I would admit that it would bother me seeing someone in a wheelchair arrested because the first thing you think if you're a bystander is that it appears wrong, especially if the person isn't causing a disturbance....

Hi Pye I don't mind, truly I don't. You aren't swinging any shoes at my head while writing this lol. The issue I was talking about has to do with a law in the courthouse where people want 'exceptions'. Instead of having an exception, I would think maybe they could do their business via videolink (this was an idea given by James) or telephone after a court employee verified their identity. If they are going INSIDE the courthouse, they still need to follow the law, which is everybody removes headwear. Our laws here do not allow for religious beliefs - they are not founded on religion, they are founded in the name of safety. They are not necessarily meant to look down on religious beliefs either, so the whole thing about how they are being victimized for not being granted an exception really made my head spin. I didn't know that about the Native American Church - and see, that doesn't make any sense to me. The government should not have any say in how the Native American Church conducts their ceremonies. It's not like you were trying to get inside the courthouse and conduct a ceremony inside with a substance you were not supposed to have. I do not feel it was right to withhold that right from Native Americans, no. I want to mention that I have never seen face to face, anybody who tried to go inside a courthouse and refuse to take off anything. I do see nuns from time to time and I see jewish people. If they aren't refusing to take off their head coverings, even if they really don't want to, then I can't see how it makes the muslim woman any different. I expect someone to just not go inside if it is too much of a hardship for them to remove a head covering. To get angry and abusive on top of refusing just does not paint your culture or religion in a very good light to anybody else who might hear of it or see it. It does make people think she wanted special favors or that she thinks she is above the law. The full extent of the law as far as religious freedom ends when religious freedom butts heads with a law that has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with equality and safety. I respectfully feel that the law is still above religion, no matter what religion. If I went to a Muslim country, I would indeed be expected to follow THEIR laws, even if I didn't agree with them, like them, or felt my rights were being violated. They'd say my rights were not being violated because I was in their country so I did not have the same rights I have in my own country - which is true! However, I would not go choose to live there because I don't want to cover myself head to toe, I don't want to give up driving, and I don't want to live in a society where women are more or less still considered 'second class citizens' to men. Besides, I am too outspoken, I wouldn't fit in at all.

LOL--this statement pops out to me the most.. [i]However, I would not go choose to live there because I don't want to cover myself head to toe, I don't want to give up driving, and I don't want to live in a society where women are more or less still considered 'second class citizens' to men. Besides, I am too outspoken, I wouldn't fit in at all. [/i] Ho boy would that ever be true for me....I'm a big mouthed, often opinionated person and definitely would NOT fit in Islamic countries as a woman. I really feel sorry for women there as they are treated like dirt in my opinion. Women have no say whatsoever. Not even American born women. Did you ever see that movie, "Not Without My Daughter" with Sally Field. She was an American born woman who married an Iranian. He decided to take his wife and child to visit family there...but once there she had to follow all the Islamic customs expected of a woman and became a virtual prisoner...she had to practically "kidnap" her own daughter and smuggle her out with the help of the American Embassy and get away to return home to America

Yes I have seen that movie, and I did think of it when considering why I wouldn't want to go there. I'm not nuts, I know what I'm used to and what is familiar and 'right' to me, so I'd never willingly give that up to impose restrictions on myself. I do realize that some of the women here were not here through their own choosing, but they should realize in America that they COULD leave if they wanted...

You're right about that discussion. I ended up losing track of it, & I'm someone who usually keeps up pretty well. I do admit that nuns are not required by the church as a whole to wear their habits at all times. If there are orders that require it, I am sure that the order itself would make an exception for something like this. There are some nuns (At least, in the early 1980's) that when they are working in the Catholic schools, they would wear their habits. Other than that, they don't. However, one advantage of wearing a habit is that they probably don't really need to be very concerned about a bad hair day.

LOL! Yeah, that would avoid the problem of doing one's hair. I think some nuns did wear their habit and head piece all day - teaching at the school for instance. That thread had ADHD.. needed a dose or two of medication lol.

So even God stands behind people following the laws of the country you're in. I would take this to mean whichever deity you believe in. That sure makes it seem like some religious practices that are rigid and unbending are not truly what 'God' would have wanted nor expected.

That is true. Not all religions are approved by God. Jesus said at Mathew 7:21 "Not everyone saying to me Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my father who is in the heavens will.

Heh, no kidding. I would take secularism and particularly the separation of church and state to mean that while people are free to practice their own chosen religions, it does not mean people can USE their religion to ever exempt them from common laws that are in place for all people, or to try to use the provisions in government regarding 'freedom of religion' to impose their particular religion, teachings, or other things on people who are not interested. I do respect the personal part of religion - but I prefer it stays personal, as in people never attack me with their religious ideals lol. I don't go about spouting (for no reason) there is no God! or 'there is no hell' hehehe. If someone ASKS me what I believe I might... err.. except that I do believe there's a God.

I appreciate your response! I agree! ANY religious person (as any non-religious person) ought to be law abiding. At least where breaking it will get you arrested!

So you do agree that people still need to follow rules and not try to use religion as a way to break them? I believe in a higher power too, I'm just not religious. Merry Christmas to you as well

I agree fijaril. If someone cannot in good conscience follow the laws of the land they CHOOSE to live in because of some religious or cultural reason, perhaps they ought to move. When it comes down to it, I would get in MORE trouble for blowing off a law than I would for going against religion, but maybe that's because I am not religious so there are no religious 'consequences' for me. Even if there were, they can't be as bad as getting arrested and thrown in jail.

This is the oddest place - mylot I mean - in that this is the sole place I have ever seen arguments from people which in essence state holding everybody to the same standard is not equality. Holding everybody to the same standard is basically the definition of equality, it means everybody starts from square one, everybody has a blue shirt or whatever, you all have an equal chance of getting chosen for whatever it is you're competing for! To continue this example, you'd give each person the SAME EXACT LUNCH and let them all choose where they want to sit. That is equal and fair treatment too. You could also argue that everybody assembled has been chosen with equal education and experience, so nobody has any 'unfair advantage'. But.. I suppose nowhere else other than a discussion forum will I find people who try to say that treating everyone the same violates the rights of somebody - and it just doesn't make sense that it would if everybody is treated the SAME.

Thanks! I think it's very frustrating to watch other people who are basically 'tourists' here think they have more civil rights than WE do, and we are actual citizens. I also see no reason why I should have to allow them to trod on my rights by giving them an exception for a reason I would never get an exception for.

This is what I mean though. When it comes down to which law you are going to honor, don't you think the right choice is the one that isn't going to get you jailed and arrested for breaking the laws of the country where you live? Even if it IS a man-made law, it is there for a reason, and it doesn't matter if religion agrees with it. I've seen people say all sorts of things about what laws are based on or that one should be equal to the other, but I look at it this way - as far as religion, it is not going to physically separate my head from my body if I decide to go in favor of a law of my country instead. Now if I decided to break the law of the country, someone might indeed try to separate my head from my body. I don't have to even consider which priority is higher in the moment. Another poster said basically that safety is on the same level as religion. Again, I don't see that at all. Safety has to do with making sure you don't get injured or die. Accidents might happen if you don't follow safety rules at a job site. Accidents don't usually happen as a result of dropping the ball on a religious preference... you don't get struck by lightning, your hand doesn't get stuck in a trash compactor. If there ARE any people who might threaten your life due to you not complying with their religious ideals, you need to look at their motivation for how they are treating you.

I appreciate your response. It appears you do not think that religion grants you the right to claim you're being victimized, especially when the law as written is not even about religion at all.

LOL! I wrote a few very long and detailed comments back to Katran about that.... especially concerning how the law was written and had nothing to do with religion - so there was never any intent or prejudice to begin with - and the only reason anybody might even think there could be is because of this situation that happened - because she used her religion as an excuse. Don't ya know, if you get in trouble you have to find some sort of believable scapegoat to make people feel sorry for you, and people always tend to feel sorry for 'victims'... even if they aren't really victims. Makes me think of the sob stories of people who say their kids have cancer and are dying and they need to raise 10k and their town goes and does it... and the kid isn't even sick... so they were duped into raising money for a false purpose and the family probably took it and went to the bahamas. Of course when they get caught - off they go to jail! Sure they get upset and weepy - but the were only upset they got caught, not really sorry for duping the entire town out of 10K!

Me too. There is a very good reason why I live in the USA and not another country....