Does Organized Religion cause Mental Meltdown?

See my post above to Ravnjlady #1, Would you still agree that people should be involved in organized religion, or does organized religion become exclusive and a catalyst for suffering? What does suffering lead to?

It is a pleasure to talk with you Derek, Yes, you are right about your personal path being on the right path and that organized religion does create a desire and that desire causes harm to others, or do the others cause harm to themselves? I'm not trying to convince you of anything that you do not already know and believe, you brought up some very tolerant points that are quite intolerant. How can you say that it is okay for some but not for all? Have you ever seen that type of logic used anywhere else for any other agenda? In short, we have to look at the situation from a new angle we have to have new eyes to see what the real problem is. First question to ask is have we caused anyone to suffer? Not you or I but the system in general, the system being religion and politics... Now if you care to continue to have this conversation I will come back and add to the discussion as long as you are willing to keep up your end of the discussion. We can agree on everything and still have a lot to talk about. We can find points where we disagree and try to win each other over to our way of thinking. I'm in... Cheers and Happy New Year, Happy MyLotting :) Sincerely, Gary

It is a pleasure talking to you too Gary... These are my thoughts that have come up for me during my 30+ years as a Zen practitioner. They are not written in stone of course, but I am willing to share them. Other readers just need to see what they are ready to see and reject what is not true for them. As Zen doesn't preach or change beliefs. ***do the others cause harm to themselves? We are all responsible for our own experiences. We create our lives and our responses to stimuli and people that come into our lives. ***How can you say that it is okay for some but not for all? In Zen we see the relative (ying-yang) world as illusion, but an illusion that we are here to grow through and realise our own "one-ness" - that nothing is really separate. Therefore what I say may not make a geat deal of sense... We need to become enlightened and whenever we judge another, we are drawn back into a dualistic world. When we realise that the self and other is an illusion, we don't need to judge. We cannot judge anything if we are not separate from it. Therefore when I learn of a person who is heavilly into organised religion, I will let him/her be. They may have to become very obsessive before they realise they are obsessive. Once they realise they are obsessive, they have a choice to quit being that way or stay the same. They usually opt to quit. ***Have you ever seen that type of logic used anywhere else for any other agenda? I have seen a lot logic, but Zen is not logic. It recognises "at-one-ness" and therefore cannot be analysed. If we keep looking at logic [with awareness] logic disappears as all argument and debate does so. ***In short, we have to look at the situation from a new angle we have to have new eyes to see what the real problem is. Yes, we just look at and witness the situation without attempting to make logic or analyse. We can merely share our insights with those who ask. ***First question to ask is have we caused anyone to suffer? That to me is the paradox, like the Zen precept of not killing. How do you do that? Zen doesn't specify killing anything specific. It could be killing time, killing thought, killing an insect you accidently step on. The precepts are almost impossible to keep 100%, but by aspiring to keep them, we develop a higher state of awareness of where are and who we are. ***Now if you care to continue to have this conversation I will come back and add to the discussion as long as you are willing to keep up your end of the discussion. Yes, I am more than willing :-) Please bear in mind that if I disappear for several hours, I am in the UK and may have logged off for the day. :-) ***We can find points where we disagree and try to win each other over to our way of thinking. I will just share my thoughts, as I say, I don't try and win anybody over to my way of thinking. By sharing my thoughts though, another paradox occurs and I learn even more of what lies at deeper and deeper levels of consciousness. Answering questions exposes quite a lot, and contemplationg exposes even more. :-) Happy New Year to you too Derek

Religious, or Spiritual? Independent or Organized?

You are referring to those people of Organized religion are supposed to be happier and better rounded. Have you been in any structured religious services lately, the people on whole are not looking very happy... Look around and really look at the faces, maybe about 10% are happy the other 90% look like they are forced to do something other than what they really want to do, their depression slows down their metabolism and yeah! A lot of them are very well rounded, very rounded in deed... ;)

I heard religious.

Heeheeeheee, Yep that is not funny but I soooo, understand what you mean...

Picketing is not a bad idea, I've thought of that often, I'd like to peaceably assemble at the entrance of the driveway to speak truth to the congregation that has no clue of what the truth really is. The harm that I and my family have suffered as they gossiped behind my back instead of teaching the healing qualities that they so boldly propound as a profession to their faith. Who can hold a leadership of a church accountable for their actions? Only a church or government can discipline the actions of such an entity a body of flawed beliefs. I was prosecuted and convicted with out a defense to false accusations with out proper time to prepare.

Yes, I totally agree with this! For anybody who knows me, you KNOW how I feel about people who use religion as an excuse - for anything! I think it is a good REASON as long as you are not blatantly disrespecting other people - but as an EXCUSE? No way. It's a good thing if you are doing good with it, doing something positive. If you're using it to excuse any horrific behavior, tearing someone down, discrediting someone, breaking laws, picketing, killing people, that's like dragging it right through the mud.

Your story is not unique, The line of a song song that just popped into my mind, "You are one of my kind" Pleased to meet you and thank you for sharing...

I belong to this same group. I think personal faith is a GREAT thing, and if I ever find myself looking for it, cool but as far as all the church-goers, I'm not buying.

Many negative issues that cut it close, I think many issues are created and could be cut... What is worse is when the government and the "Professionals" instead of helping hurt families that are suffering from such curses. Here is the deal, if you get professional involvement that will cost you more time and money, what are some of the problems that created the dysfunction? Exhaustion, a lack of energy, time and money... Let's add a bigger burden on over burdened families... How does organized religion help? It only compounds the problems, mixing the wealthy with the poor only exacerbates the problem because the poor are already doing all that they can do to survive with no help and nothing to live on. Then make the poor live by the rules established for the elite and you only compound the problem yet again. Are you ready to expand your thoughts?

We are all children.

There are many ways that this line could be interpreted, I'll take the high road and identify the fact that you show empathy and wisdom with Love that is a very positive attribute that I see. So being part of a non-conforming dysfunction, the path you are on could lead you to better things beyond all human understanding. Eternal Peace is a Blessing, As for the low road? Why go there?

My lemonade needs more sugar so that it is not bitter... yeah, I know what you mean...

LOL! My LIFE is sometimes dysfunctional but very passionate and loving and full of people and things that are both passionate and loving. My life is a gift, I make the most of it as much as I can. Dysfunction exists. It doesn't have to ruin your life. To make it a cliche - shiit happens. Go make some lemonade, know what I mean?

Hi Suspenseful, You wrote: It is not about organized religion. It is against hypocrites. You are assuming that everyone who attends a Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Reformed, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Pentacostal, etc. church are all hypocrites and all who go out in the field and sit down under a tree, all who stay at home and listen to Benny Hinn or other TV evangelists are pure devoted children of God? Wrong. My reply: You missed a few, the Mosques of the Islam faith, the teachings of the Rabbis in the Temples of Israel, where ever they gather together to infect people to war against the evils inside the hearts of other members of society... You could go further, the leaders of gangs are also preachers of a religion, The leaders of movements that incite violence, terrorism, acts of torture, these are all based on a religious ideology that is built upon a false foundation. You also wrote: Oh and hate - does that person hate evil or hate good. If a person is full of hatred against the evil that men do (like against Hitler) does that mean that the person should now love evil? I reply: Wasn't Hitler a religious zealot full of religiosity? The people were sheeple following Hitler who built a faith upon a false foundation. I believe it was right to stop the advancement of the Fabricated Ideology of Hitler, but we should not have stopped there... Don't you agree? You wrote: These someones are infected with original sin. --If you say so, that is your belief. All men and woman have these tendencies. -- Please expand on this thought. It is only by God entering their hearts through the preaching of the Word that Christ can enter their hearts and get them to fight against their evil nature. -- What are the fruits of this practice that you speak of? Please show me some evidence of how this works. Would you now deny them this opportunity? -- I would not be against an institution that will work for the benefit of mankind, but I see no proof of a benefit to our civilization as the framework has been currently constructed. An opportunity is a gift that keeps giving, what I see is a symbol of destruction, how can you call bad good and be a witness instead of actively involved, this does not bring about justice, what is seen is corruption. Remember one thing, GOD is Love To define the Love of GOD remember GOD Loves Justice, if there is no justice there is no love and the love of GOD can not be found.

You see that also? I knew you would, hey' check out my latest entry you might find it thought provoking for sure. Thanks for the reply, Peace to you and yours, Happy MyLotting and all of that, Sincerely, Gary

Hi Mommyboo, You really worked this discussion over and at times I was having a hard time trying to figure out if you were talking to me or to the person and their point of view... I was seeing dual trains of thoughts, I thought at times you were in agreement with me and conflicted by the end of your thought, did I read that right? I would say I read that in several of your comments a duality of reply. I was looking for your post of 2 minutes ago, I found a couple that were 10 hours ago and this one yesterday, so here I parked this reply... It should be easy for you to find and we can continue a bit of a discussion, because you have given me cause to ponder your position. I know very little about you, from what I see you are not involved in any organized religion is that correct? I am no longer affiliated with any other organized religion after getting excommunicated and having my personal property damaged they covered up the lies that had hurt me severely and ended up splitting up my family, that makes the church leaders hypocrites, that I agree, I think you also have agreed to that. There was plenty to read, and after reading the post by Derek you ended with letting go, I cringe every time I read those words you have to learn to let go. It makes me cringe because I feel that a person really doesn't understand what I hold on to is nothing, what I am doing is trying to correct the problem by being strong and doing all that I can with pen and paper. The media is next, but I have to be patient before reaching out I have to allow for a settlement to be obtained. This format while very public is not nearly as public as the 6' O'clock news. Is there a story here? So I answered two questions you asked that I could see jumping right out at me, am I involved in organized religion, no I am not, do I know what religion is? Yes, I do and I know the bible very well, thank you... Also I have nothing to let go of but at the same time I seek to make right the wrongs that have been committed against me, not a physical object to hold onto other than the paperwork involved in processing a complaint. Is there anything else you would like to know?

I put a comment also on the thread started by cooler 1968 above... I was hoping that you would have read and commented on this page also, I'm glad that you did. Thank You... :)

Very Zen of you, I hope you have read the reply by Derek... Read and know, There are two paths, choose the right path and everything will work out in the end.

It sounds to me like what you witnessed was people being brainwashed to look for the terrorist never realizing the person that they were spitting at was in fact their own reflection in a mirror. Yep, I noticed that also... So have you seen any pictures in the words? Maybe the presentation of a part of a bird? Like maybe a wing? Or the tip of a wing? I'd look beyond the text into the nothingness to grasp my meaning, I'd be Looking here and the OP to be sure, but then, maybe nothing exists or something exists, and it wasn't noticed...

That post wasn't as good as the OP I think it worked better in the OP But hey' I'm still trying, maybe I can fix it...

Nope, the picture isn't working very well, Not at this hour... Maybe I'll try again later...

I understand what you are saying but I can see that you have no clue about my thoughts and beliefs. Would you like me to take you by the hand and show you some things that you have yet to learn? There are people in this world that have led you astray, you obviously show signs of not understanding the total concept of which you have just preached there is a duality of concept in your post and in your thoughts, this is a very dangerous duality. You in your reply are both for and against GOD but you don't yet understand how this can be. This is the danger of organized religion at work. I would like to help you by exposing this danger. Blessings of Peace to you and yours, Sincerely, Gary

Hi 6precious102 May the face of GOD shine upon you and may you have peace beyond all human understanding. May you be blessed that your descendants out number the stars. You can not get anymore peace and blessings than that, I'm sorry you fail to see the Universal GOD is greater than the one you read about in the Bible or any other singular man made source of scripture, call the book by any other name it is still the same. I truly am sincere of that which I speak and wish for all the good people willing to be good for the Universe and the Earth. Thank You, Gary

Thank you for your blessing and peace, but I am confident in my beliefs and I wish I could convince you that lives could be changed for the better if people would get into God's word (the Bible) and learn of the blessings He has for us. May the good Lord bless and keep you and may you learn of His blessings.

Not so true, There are many families that live in peace and harmony with each other, of course we all have good and bad days, but the normal in the realm of study the normal would be of one tight line on the graph while the abnormal or dysfunctional would create a dramatic curve. We needed to first set a base line and separate the normal from the abnormal, almost like a judgment. Once we find the point of dysfunction for the abnormal we could then address a cure or begin a repair and maintenance plan to keep the troubled areas lubricated and functioning. Really the picture that came to me was that of a wing... One wing reaching out to another...