Questioning the implementation of Separation of Church and State

All I have to say is the country went to hell in a hand basket when people became obssesed with seperating church and state.

Here is how this works: Our school system is "public". Government, at one level or another, controls the whole she-bang. Therefore, any teacher working in a public school IS an authority figure with government-type clout. To display his/her religious preferences openly would force the children to question what their parents want them to believe religiously. This is contrary to the concept of religious freedom. People just don't like it anymore that we have evolved religious freedom to mean more than just freedom of choices within Christianity. The same parents who might object to not having "under God" uttered in school, would cry havok if a teacher displayed his/her pagan or even Muslim affiliations. The rules work both ways. "Leading a prayer with willing students" can only be done by complete agreement between teacher, school and all parents, hence, privately owned schools.

As long as the children are doing so out of their own free will, I do not see any problem with a public school teacher leading a voluntary school prayer like the Meet You At The Poll, or even a student religious club that would need a teacher sponsor. The issue would be that all parties would have to be in agreement. If the teacher was to use his or her time that was to be spent teach math for instance, instead the teacher spent time trying to evangelize, there would be a problem.

I think the implementation of the policy of separating the church and state should be better done in America. I, personally, do not consider the US as a christian nation as at the present moment. A number of laws that have have been passed are just not in agreement with the bible. Moreover, the actions and inactions of many can't just compare with what a christian should do. Please note that a christian is not just one by name or mere profession, a christian is a person who is Christ-like.

Terrific discussion! You've opened the proverbial can of worms and are taking us down the proverbial slippery slope which are often parts of the best discussions. Personally, I agree with others here who have said there should be nothing wrong with a prayer group being held by willing students outside of classroom time. However, since this IS public schools we're talking about, shouldn't that be dependent upon the approval of the students' parents? If enough parents objected, wouldn't the right thing to do be to not allow these meetings or do you disagree with me on this? I don't mean to sound "anti-Christian" because I'm not but I have a feeling some of the strongest objections may come if it were a group choosing to have a prayer of a religion other than Christianity. I feel the "slippery slope" comes in if first a "teacher led" prayer is allowed and then it turns into a teacher reading bible passages to "willing students" and so on. I CAN understand how this could be upsetting to parents who don't want their impressionable youngsters exposed to faiths other than their own. It would depend on the ages of the students, of course, but even a teen still needs a parent's permission for many things so religious "training", or something that could be perceived as such, seems like something that should fit that category. Or does it? As you can see, this is something I have mixed feelings about. The schools my daughter attended had a pretty much 100% Christian population so the odds of her becoming "indoctrinated" in any "strange" faith were slim to none and it just never came up. Annie

i don't think it will be possible to remove the state from the church, even some part of the constitution of the state were coined from the bible hence it will be quite difficult for separation except some part of the state's constitution will have to be removed entirely

I think they figure that freedom of religion means freedom from religion, so instead of teaching that God is above all, they teach the religion of humanism. So even if the students want to have bible studies, or in the case of Muslim students, Koran studies, the public school says no religion, the teacher cannot say that she believes in the Trinity because she is Catholic and a student is forbidden or given demerit if she gives credit to Jesus Christ for her high marks. Yet it seems that the only religion not allowed in public schools is Christianity. Any other religion is allowed. Girls can wear head scarves, boys can wear turbans and have ceremonial knives, children can have menorahs. So this idea of separation of church and state is hypocritical. I am Canadian by the way. And we are supposed to be humanists in public schools up here. God is not allowed. Seems rather unfair since it was God that created the World, not man.

I don't know if the Separation of Church and State is being implemented incorrectly, but I DO know that it is being implemented unfairly. I don't know what schools some of the respondents above me went to that seemed to favor "fundies" and Christians over other religions, but it must have been some azz-backwards little school, because my high school and lots of high schools I know of held EVERY OTHER RELIGION above Christianity. My school even allowed a Muslim group to come and talk to the kids when they would not allow Christian groups or any other religious groups to come. The education system is extremely liberal, and it seems lately that it is the policy of the liberals to promote other religions while making sure Christians shut up. When I read the first amendment, it seems to me that it means that we cannot establish a state sanctioned religion. Allowing children to have religious clubs after school is not sanctioning religion. Allowing children to bring their Bibles to school to read at lunch or in study hall is not sanctioning religion. Not only have they been too strict with their interpretation of the first amendment, but they have also been too selective in what religions they try to shut up.

Well, I agree with you - I think we are overdoing the separation of church and state thing a whole lot.

lead a prayer with willing student, i agreement. I think teacher has the right to display his/her religion before student, because the believe the most important part of people, display his/her religion is christian's duty according to the Bible "you are the light of the world". of courst, student has the right to refuse or obey the religion.