Would you give a knife as a gift?

Pity the poor chrysanthemum... they're popular here in bouquets and potted plants.

I didn't know about the lilac Owl, or if I did I had forgotten. Strange how things change from one place to another

I haven't heard that one, MsTickle. I know that the Scots and the Irish (who are great knitters) wouldn't give any credence to that. The Irish fishermen's wives in the Aran Islands would knit their husbands sweaters with an individual pattern so that - I know it sounds morbid - they could be identified if they were lost at sea and their body was found (much) later. Shetland women were able to knit a pair of socks for their men using one set of needles and two balls of wool. The two socks were knitted together using alternate threads for each stitch and then peeled apart when finished. I can only say that nights must have been long and boring in the winter to allow such concentration. If you got a stitch wrong, the two socks would be joined forever!

I see that you are also from the Philippines. You're the second to say that there is no tradition of "bad luck" associated with knives as a gift in your country. Any good cook knows the benefit of a really sharp knife that handles well but, on the other hand, most cooks would expect to choose and buy their own knives, so giving one as a gift might not be appropriate.

As long as it doesn't take over your life some superstitions are nice nonsense. I did try making one of my own, telling the family it was bad luck to enter my house without chocolate for me, sadly that didn't work.

I think that the one about knives (in Britain) and scissors (in Germany, it seems) is a harmless enough superstition. I can see, I think, how it arose (and how it's probably no longer valid but just a superstition). I believe that it's nice to keep such 'nonsense' alive.

I had heard the one about accepting a coin for the gift of shoes before (perhaps someone else mentioned it here). You are right, of course, that what happens, happens and it very likely has nothing to do with little superstitions like this. However, it pays to be cautious and it costs nothing and hurts nobody to see that traditions like this are observed. They may be meaningless but who can tell?

The function of the coin is, I think, to make the 'gift' into a 'transaction'. If someone gives you something, one almost always asks why it was given or 'why that particular choice?' or 'what is the significance?'. If you yourself don't, then you can be almost sure that someone else in the family (or maybe a friend) will do! A wedding is a very significant occasion, so gifts tend to be thought of as symbolic rather than merely practical. I hadn't heard the superstition about perfume or a shirt. I have come across ones about a handkerchief or a watch/clock and understand those (or at least, their meaning). Soon, with our global society, it will be considered unlucky by someone or other to give any gift at all ... and, perhaps, unlucky not to do so! So much for obeying superstition or paying too much regard to cultural rules!

Different cultures have different customs and I believe that making a small payment for a knife given as a gift must be a European tradition. I have heard that the same thing should apply to any sharp edged utensil that could be used as a weapon, so perhaps you should have paid your friend a small coin! On the other hand, if you have no such tradition in the Philippines, doing so might be a nonsense!

I read that the bolo is a very useful implement and is used for everything from cutting down vegetation to killing pigs. The term I know for that kind of knife is 'machete'. I also read that it is sometimes thought of as a symbol of several Philippino uprisings!

Oh I see. I appreciate you for that. You're right maybe you have a little background known on our history..thanks for that...

I rather think that what I'm talking about is a European tradition (and that, today, it applies to knives as tools and utensils rather than as weapons). Yes, I've also heard that a knife should always be included as part of another gift in order to allay the bad luck associated with a bare blade. Either method (wrapping the knife with something else or demanding a nominal payment) is said to be effective. I'm interested in what you say about home-made cakes. I had never heard of that (and, in Britain, a gift of home-baked goodies is usually appreciated) but, of course, home-made ones could be poisoned! So much for trusting our fellow-men, LOL. I can see the need for caution, however, in many traditional marriage customs (where it's sometimes much more about a liaison of families than something between two lovers!)

The shop bought cake thing as a suitable offering is very much expected, the bakeries now are very fancy often times and the cakes are wrapped beautifully. I suspect it shows that the giver has taken some trouble with the gift as they have had to spend money plus make the right choice. I imagine it stems from previous years of poverty when I purchased cake would be an impossibilty in rural areas. There is nothing special here in making a cake as a Greek kitchen is constantly on the go so it would be considered rather normal. I particularly have to adhere to this rule as my cakes would be regarded as suspect as may have foreign things in them which would not go down well at all plus they all suspect that I have no clue how to cook in the first place due to my tendency to produce foreign muck.

There is always the tacit appraisal of a gift, of course, in any culture. The private comment (among the family) of "Hmph! You would have thought they could have afforded something better than that!" is all too common everywhere!

I do agree that one should always give something that's likely to be wanted as a gift and that giving a knife (of the weapon kind) to someone who doesn't like weapons would be wrong. I'm interested in old traditions, however, and it seems that this one may be a European tradition. There must have been some logic behind it at one time, I suppose. In the days when marriages were about joining families and clans (for political purposes), the gift of a knife, which was much more than just a kitchen utensil in those days, might have been though of as a rash expression of trust (the recipient might still turn on you and kill you with your own knife) and making the recipient pay something for it would, somehow, reduce that danger. These days, of course, we think of such customs and superstitions as nonsense but they must have had a point for our ancestors.

I read that the bolo is a very useful implement and is used for everything from cutting down vegetation to killing pigs. The term I know for that kind of knife is 'machete'. I also read that it is sometimes thought of as a symbol of several Philippino uprisings!

(oops! I added the comment to the wrong thread!)

That sounds a little like a 'mix' of the superstition about knives with the one about putting a coin in a purse given as a gift or in the pocket of a new jacket or pair of trousers. However, it may be a true variation on the knife one. All superstitions originally had some logical basis (whether it was practical or due to a religious belief) and some of them have got so mixed up on the way that there are complete opposites. Some people, for example, say that it's unlucky if a black cat crosses your path and others believe that it's lucky! Another I can think of is the horseshoe on the door for good luck. Most people say that the shoe should be hung points upwards (to stop the luck falling out) but I have heard a few say that it should be points down! Did your mother, I wonder, learn her belief about knives from her mother? If so, I wonder how far back it could be traced and to what country?

I neither believe in superstitions nor disbelieve in them. Many superstitions once had a real and practical basis, though, often, that has been completely forgotten. Obviously, the one about walking under a ladder does make a certain amount of sense today: many others, though, hark back to a time when people thought that mirrors were magical (and glass ones were uncommon), cats were associated with witches and anything made of iron or any metal (such as a pin or a knife) was, perhaps, the product of a specialised (and therefore 'protected') craft ... and also dangerous. I think that, when marriages were more or less political affairs rather than purely 'love matches' as they are today, all gifts (and particularly wedding gifts) were seen as 'symbolic' (and, actually, they often are today ... how many times have you heard the 'family' criticise gifts because they were either too little or too generous ... in other words, inappropriate as a 'symbol'?) My own attitude, I find, is that, like you, I don't really believe in superstitions per se - I generally ask 'why?' - but, having established that there is no foundation (that I can see) in a custom, I see no harm in conforming (even if it is only out of respect for those who may see it as significant). 'Bad luck' is probably more down to our own attitude to something than to anything else. There are people who will 'make a silk purse out of a sow's ear' and there are also people who also seem to run into misfortune whichever way they turn. Psychologically, it has been shown that most 'good luck' and 'bad luck' is due to the way that we choose to perceive (and use to our advantage) the thousands of random situations we encounter every day. This is why the 'Law of Attraction' works for many people ... long story in brief!

Somebody else has mentioned the German/Central European one about scissors. I'm interested that it got transferred to scissors at some point (scissors being a relatively new invention). I'm sure that the original one applied to knives (or any sharp, cutting instrument) and that, in the English/Celtic tradition, that has somehow been retained. I am, too, not 'superstitious' but I do believe in and am interested in the basis and beliefs behind superstition. I also don't see that any harm (and, perhaps, some good) comes from recognising that others may believe in such things and observing customs out of respect for them.

That is an interesting tradition that I remember hearing about before somewhere. I agree that it's very important to know about and respect other people's culture and traditions, especially in these days of mixed marriages. I can imagine that a groom from another culture could easily give very bad offence to his bride's family by giving the wrong kind of gift!

I can see your point. You are obviously thinking of a gift as being symbolic (which most gifts are, in one way or another). I think that the custom of asking payment for a knife (or scissors) is also symbolic. It makes the gift into a 'transaction' and so absolves the giver from any intention of harm to the recipient or any danger of blame on the giver. It's a very old custom in Europe (and very often not known or forgotten). In China you have different (but equally fascinating) customs and 'superstitions' which you probably know but don't even think about as being 'different'!

I know the one about 'giving an empty purse'. Someone here extended it to 'giving an item of clothing with empty pockets' ... the same tradition, I think. The tradition about knives (or anything that cuts) is that it's 'bad luck' to give or receive a knife as a gift without asking for a small sum in payment. The act of paying for the knife or scissors is supposed to completely annul the 'bad luck' ... in other words, the recipient has paid for the implement as if it were sold to him/her, so any significance or 'symbolic intention' in giving such a dangerous object as a gift (and so any harm that it might do the giver or receiver) is defused by that change in the nature of the transaction.

I've heard of that one, too. The theory is, I believe, that if you have a new jacket or pants with something of value in the pocket, it will attract wealth and so you will never be short of money. I've heard the same thing said about giving a wallet (billfold) or purse (the kind you keep coins in, not the handbag kind) as a gift. I remember when I was first given a wallet as a kid, it contained money, whether because of superstition or because the giver was just generous, I don't remember!