Do you think the United States' form of Capitalism is working or failing?
@FloridaGator09 (66)
United States
October 30, 2009 2:08am CST
It is an interesting topic to think about. From the beginning, we have supported capitalism, but there is no question that the form we have now is different than the pure capitalistic system the colonies started with.
The question is, have these changes been for the better or for the worse of the country? Should government back off to allow the invisible hand fix the issues and follow the words of Adam Smith? Or does the government need to continue to give the economy a jump start like they have tried to do with stimulus plans and bailouts of the banking and automotive sectors??
2 people like this
4 responses
@dsnachiever (250)
• India
30 Oct 09
I don't think United States is fully Capitalism now. As because of the crisis, the Government had to interfere in the market. Capitalism if allowed to act freely it can distort the market. As their are different section in the society and to take care of all is the responsibility of the Government. Government can not play the role of entrepreneur but they can play the role of a manager. Let the market forces to act freely but keep eye on them and whenever required interfere in the market.
1 person likes this
@FloridaGator09 (66)
• United States
30 Oct 09
I agree with you on the point that government should not play the role of entrepreneur and that they should only basically be a referee. The Sherman Act and the Clayton Act are examples when it was appropriate for the government to interfere. I don't agree with some of the bailouts as of recent but that's a different topic.
@Troublegum (641)
• United States
30 Oct 09
I think you my have your cause and effect mixed here. Because of governement involvement we had a crisis of economics. Then because the members of government are too dumb to figgure out that they were the problem in the first place they jumped in to save us and are now doing even more damage.
It was government policies which forced/pushed lending institutions into risky loans. And then a change in governmental accounting for assets that made the problem come to a head.
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
31 Oct 09
"Then because the members of government are too dumb to figgure out that they were the problem in the first place they jumped in to save us and are now doing even more damage."
So what do you think was the problem in the first place?
"It was government policies which forced/pushed lending institutions into risky loans. And then a change in governmental accounting for assets that made the problem come to a head."
What role do you think the repeal of Glass-Steagall had in this crisis? Please explain to me what role the government had in giving million dollar mortgages to people that didn't put one dime down on? Please show me what " government policies which forced/pushed lending institutions into risky loans." Because I don't know of any policy that "forced" any private lending institution to give out any loans.
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
31 Oct 09
Capitalism is a great idea in theory, and there is a reason why NO country has ever fully moved to it. There is no right or wrong answer here, our economy is run much like our politics are, which is run by the wealthy. Did you know that there is a delay in stock purchases that allows traders on the floor to trade a stock knowing it will go up, and by how much? Even though there are very few that have the chance to take advantage of this, it still goes on, and no one cares. This is how our country is run, and the problem is that the people that make the most off of our system are the ones who control the system. Thus, things won't change very easily.
The problem is that socialism needs the capital created by capitalism, and capitalism needs the safty net of socialism. They don't work without each other.
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
1 Nov 09
Florida, if you have been watched CNBC they have talked about very selectively, and very rarely. When you place an order that order is placed in the system, and the system then processes it. During this time there is a delay of about one minute, and this is where the major manipulation occurs. An order of the size you place wouldn't be big enough for someone to make alot of money off of. But, take an institutional trade that could be millions of shares, and if you know a stock is going up .01 to .20 a share you can place an order at the old price, and make millions off of this trade with no risk at all. Why do you think it took the stock market to from paper to computers? There have been many investigations into this, and many people have made fortunes off of this system, but it is something that NO ONE wants out there in public.
@FloridaGator09 (66)
• United States
1 Nov 09
Does this happen or not, I really cant speak on it. In theory it sounds like it could be plausible. However, though this may be in issue in the circumstances that you gave, I think a much much larger issue is with market maker manipulation. And to speak on the fact that the people on the floor can see the sale in the system, well, if it is visible to them, wouldn't it be visible to anyone with level 2? With level 2 quotes, you can see all the bids and all the asks in the system so then it boils down to who has the tools to do the job best.
@FloridaGator09 (66)
• United States
31 Oct 09
Could you speak to the stock delay. I have traded stock for a while now and I have not seen this. If I put a market order in, assuming there is a buyer, it is immediate. Not only is it immediate, I can prove it with the Time and Sale list. Don't get me wrong, I know there is manipulation left and right in the stock market with market makers and inside trading but I've never heard of this delay theory you put on the table.
1 person likes this
@MrCoolantSpray (1005)
• United States
31 Oct 09
Right now we have limited capitalism. There are several socialist programs, like the USPS, Amtrak; and several pseudo monopolies that the government allows--like health insurance (you can't buy it across state-lines).
The government interferes with and runs certain sections of the economy, and the government runs it poorly. The USPS and Amtrak haven't made a profit in living memory. If you're not constrained by self-solvency, there's no possibility of legitimate competition by private entrepreneurs. It's come up in the healthcare debate with the government's proposed plan: "We don't have to make a profit, so we can offer a cheaper plan." Those companies that do make a profit can't compete with those that can't. Imagine: It costs Sony $150 to make a Playstation 3, counting raw materials, employee pay, and shipping to the store. (These numbers are all pulled out of thin air, but they work for the analogy.) Sony sells it for $199, and makes 49 dollars of profit. They can reinvest this profit in R & D, and they'll try to increase the profit margin by lowering the cost of raw materials, or employee time required to fabricate the machines. Advances will be made, and they can trim the cost down do $117. The cost for the consumer stays the same. Sony makes more profit, does more research, then they find a way to cut costs to $95. Sony drops the retail price to $125, and the consoles fly off the shelf. The margin is lower, (30 bucks versus 50) but Sony is selling more consoles, so while the margin is lower, they're making more money.
Now throw in a government video console maker. The government sells it for $50. They lose $100 for every console they sell, but it doesn't matter because profit is not an issue. They just raid the tax pantry when they run low. Nobody buys Sony Playstations anymore because they cost thrice as much as Government Issued Playstations. Soon, Sony goes out of business, because nobody buys their product. Meanwhile, the national deficit grows, because every $50 dollar console that gets sold costs the taxpayer $100. No R&D to lower costs, because there's no profit. No chance of efficiency, because there's no reason to lower costs, and there's no reason to raise prices.
That's the future if we continue the way we're going now.
Full out capitalism works, but it creates definite winners and losers. In this nation of self-esteem, the notion of losing is unconscionable. That's why we had the bailouts. GM and Chrysler were losing the battle, and that wasn't acceptable. If the government had let them fail, millions/billions of taxpayer dollars would have been saved, the market would have moved to Ford vs the World, and Ford would have fought to regain market share.
There's a lot going on with economics and free market capitalism--too much to list here, but needless to say, ALL government involvement with the market is bad. It does self-regulate, and it self-regulates a lot faster by itself than with government help.
@MrCoolantSpray (1005)
• United States
31 Oct 09
There isn't a country with full capitalism. Politicians love power and money far too much to allow it.
And it wasn't the free market in the mortgage industry that caused the crash. It was government involvement. The government required lenders to make risky loans, banks couldn't recover the money, and the economy tanked. In a free market, banks probably wouldn't have made so many risky loans.
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
31 Oct 09
Mrcoolant, please show me an example where a country switched to "full capitalism"? Then explain to me why it is that NO country has ever done this.
By the way, self-regulation of the mortgage industry almost destroyed the world economy. So I think your idea of self-regulation is not the best idea you have ever had. When you family dog is more reguated then your mortgage company, there is something wrong.
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
1 Nov 09
"There isn't a country with full capitalism. Politicians love power and money far too much to allow it."
Or is it that Capitalism really doesn't work without socialism?
"And it wasn't the free market in the mortgage industry that caused the crash. It was government involvement. The government required lenders to make risky loans, banks couldn't recover the money, and the economy tanked."
Again Coolant, please show me where the government "forced" banks to make these loans.
"In a free market, banks probably wouldn't have made so many risky loans."
LOL, do you really undestand how this collapse really happened? You think it was powerful people in Washington, and in New York. It was actually 5 guys who came up with this scam that made banks billions. Look up the facts as to what actually happened, and you will see it had nothing to do with Politics. It had to do with greed, and the thurst for money and power at all cost.
@Troublegum (641)
• United States
30 Oct 09
The government needs to leave economics alone and let the invisible hand fix it. Bailouts clearly arent working. The only reason the stock market is coming back is that it is being propped up by the world market as countries like Brazil and India have rapidly increasing GDP while the US flatlines.
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
31 Oct 09
Trouble, apparently you have forgot about what happened last year. If you look at the facts, you would see that if it wasn't for the government our economy wouldn't be flatlined, it would be in a depression. We tried to "let the invisible hand fix it", and it almost destroyed the entire world. Look at the facts, and come back and talk.