Anyone who doesn't think Prs. Obama bowing to royalty is demeaning...
By ParaTed2k
@ParaTed2k (22940)
Sheboygan, Wisconsin
November 17, 2009 6:52am CST
If you are liberal, bow to Sarah Palin or Rush Limbaugh.
If you are Conservative, bow to Obama or Michael Moore.
Tell your kids to bow to their teachers and principal.
Bow to your employer.
Bow to your Mayor, Governor and Senator.
Now do you still think it's no big deal?
6 people like this
16 responses
@Latrivia (2878)
• United States
17 Nov 09
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Bows in America are not a sign of respectful greeting, as they are in Japan. Actually bowing in Japan has many uses, but for the context in this situation I'm addressing a sign of greeting. Ask any businessman who deals with the Japanese, and many will tell you that they bow to their Japanese customers or partners. I wouldn't bow to any of the people you listed because I can shake hands and it would be just fine. However, were I in Japan and actually got a chance to meet the emperor, you'd bet I'd bow to him. Why? Because that's the custom.
Nixon, too, bowed to the emperor of Japan and his wife, along with an accompanying greeting of "Your imperial Majesties". I assume you're angry about that, too. I don't see why, though.
Obama bowing doesn't bother me, but it's interesting to note that he got the bow wrong. It was too deep. When you give a bow of greeting (and you're equals) it's supposed to be a slight bend at the waist. He did nod to the empress correctly, though.
Seriously, though, Obama needs a new cultural adviser. Bowing wasn't necessarily a bad idea, but he at least ought to have looked into bowing the right way. The Japanese have their own system on this, and bows are not one-size-fits all.
3 people like this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
17 Nov 09
Again, Obama BROKE Japanese protocol here. He did not meet the emporer with and equal bow (denoting two equals meeting), he followed the protocol of how an inferior bows to a superior. The deeper the bow, the more inferior the person is to the one being bowed to.
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
18 Nov 09
Obama is sending the royalty the exact message he means to.
@Latrivia (2878)
• United States
18 Nov 09
Like I said, he bowed incorrectly. Whoever is advising him on how to act in other cultures needs to be fired and replaced with someone who knows what they're doing. The man seriously doesn't get how to be culturally respectful without being an embarrassment to the rest of us.
@jb78000 (15139)
•
17 Nov 09
is the usa the same as japan too then? . bowing is normal politeness in japan - even you might if you went there ted, otherwise people would assume you were being rude. now why can we not change what basically seems to be a discussion on a fairly pointless filler story into a good old royal bashing session on which i suspect all the responders so far will agree?
3 people like this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
17 Nov 09
Bowing yes, but Obama bowed much lower than the Emporer, denoting deference.
@jb78000 (15139)
•
17 Nov 09
well to be honest i can't be bothered checking whether he overdid it or not - any users from japan would be able to fill you in, i've seen a few responders in these discussions from other parts of asia but so far none from japan. i hope one does respond and settles this. anyway back to a more interesting topic - are we going to start royal bashing or not?
2 people like this
@Rollo1 (16679)
• Boston, Massachusetts
17 Nov 09
I think his bowing to foreign royalty has a lot to do with his inexperience and lack of knowledge in conducting foreign policy. He's made several major gaffes in his many meetings with the leaders of other nations, including Great Britain, France, Germany, etc... He's given inappropriate gifts, shown too much or too little deference and basically looked like a rookie thrown into the game with no training or warm-up.
But it's more than inexperience, it's also arrogance. He obviously has not sought advice and counsel on how to behave, and what is appropriate diplomatic protocol. Not only has he not sought to amend his behavior or brush up on international courtesies, his staff is also remiss in not advising him to do so. But I think that both Obama and his staff believe they are the new, fresh face of politics, that he is important enough that he can do as he pleases and he's charming enough that everyone will love him for his quaint colonial ways. I am afraid this isn't true. He's NOT making a good impression on anyone but Chavez and Castro.
No American president should be bowing to ANY leader of any foreign country. I agree that in doing so, he is putting all of us in a position of subjection and deference that is unwarranted. I am more bothered by the bowing to the King of Saudi Arabia than the bow in Japan, where at least bowing has some social significance. But it shouldn't happen anywhere.
And to defend you against your critics, who say you simply don't understand Japanese culture and that he was merely being polite, I offer the following:
"ABC's Jake Tapper reports that at least one Japanese newspaper is not printing the picture of the president's mortifying bow because the Japanese are embarrassed by his behavior. A scholar of traditional Japan tells Mr. Tapper, "The bow… did not just display weakness in Red State terms, but evoked weakness in Japanese terms… The last thing the Japanese want or need is a weak-looking American president."
3 people like this
@Netsbridge (3253)
• United States
17 Nov 09
Or Obama's bowing to foreign dignitaries may simply be his attempt at doing in Xnation as the people would do. I am multi-lingual and have lived in other nations. I sometimes find myself greeting people from some of these nations as I remember or know is done in their nation. Just as an act of acknowledgement or mere friendly gesture.
1 person likes this
@Rollo1 (16679)
• Boston, Massachusetts
17 Nov 09
The newspaper report that I quoted reflects the Japanese impression of Obama's gesture which was not a favorable one. If he embarrassed them, he embarrassed us as our representative. He is only that, after all. He is employed by the people of the United States. I think I clearly stated my opinion that his job performance is of poor quality.
I don't have any problem with our President "consorting" with Prince Philip or the Queen as I do not know that any British citizens or those of Commonwealth nations were embarrassed by it. I do know that Philip has a tendency to say some very politically incorrect things, he is, after all, slightly older than dirt and has no clue how to behave in this brave new world. There is less excuse for Charles who often does the same. If Barack decides to stay and listen to racist remarks, that is his choice but I hadn't heard any reports that Philip had made any racist remarks to Obama.
3 people like this
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
17 Nov 09
I'm sure you'll want to rush over to Teddy's other discussion he started earlier today on the same subject and defend him there too. He seemed to be embarrassed to respond when the gaffe he wrote was pointed out to him that China does not actually have an Emperor these days, but I suppose the two countries could be easily confused by someone so obessed with a bit of protocol that they put two discussions up in one day about it.
As to Japanese impressions on your president, I doubt very much that most of them even cared less about the visit.
So Rollo do you have an opinion on how it reflected on Obama when he was consorting with the British queens consort whilst the latter was making rascist remarks, and do you also feel it is necessary for your president to meet two sets of English representatives when one set is clearly unelected? Or do you also need to rely on a newspaper report such as you quote above to find your own opinion.?
1 person likes this
@tdemex (3540)
• United States
17 Nov 09
Taken from an article this am! A reality check!:
In 1994, former Democratic President Bill Clinton was criticized for almost bowing to Akihito. The resulting image, The New York Times wrote, was of "an obsequent president and the emperor of Japan."
Former President Richard Nixon, a Republican, can be seen in a Life magazine photo from 1971 bowing to Akihito's father, Emperor Hirohito, who ruled when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor in 1941.
Obama's encounter with Akihito was a stumble because it mixed a bow with a handshake — something not normally done. And it wasn't the first time the president, a Democrat in office less than a year, has been criticized for his greeting of a foreign leader. Critics accused him of genuflecting to Saudi King Abdullah at a summit meeting of the leaders of the top 20 rich and developing nations earlier this year.
Another slam at Obama, this is petty and only hurts your cause! Tdemex
The current bow comes during a highly charged political moment in the United States. Conservatives are strongly opposing Obama's policies, especially his plan to overhaul the U.S. health care system, and they have seized on any perceived faux pas by Obama, carrying their message on talk radio and blogs.
1 person likes this
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
17 Nov 09
TD, teddy put this exact same thing up 14 hours ago with a long introduction about something else but getting to the point of bowing in the final question. I had to laugh though when I saw your response here though mentioning China as I think this might have been churned out as earlier Teddy here thought that China had an Emperor.
2 people like this
@aerous (13434)
• Philippines
17 Nov 09
I seen that on foxnews that some of the newscaster criticize Pres. Obama on bowing to the emperor of Japan and King of Saudi Arabia...They said that this action of the good President is not on the protocol.
But in my opinion is that bow to someone is not a big deal because that practice is showing respect. I don't know about American people what they understand about bow if bad to bow in front of people that practices good manner in that particular way?
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
17 Nov 09
It was not respectful, in fact, it embarrassed the people of Japan.
Prs. Obama's bow was far deeper than even the subjects of the emporer are required. In their culture and protocols, Prs. Obama insulted the people of Japan.
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
17 Nov 09
Why wouldn't Prs. Obama "consort" with the heads of state of our allies? I know the royal family are basically figureheads, but the queen does hold head of state status.
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
17 Nov 09
JB, your disgust for the royal family is noted. However, the US isn't the one who decides who does and doesn't get head of state status in allied coutries. None of this has anything to do with the point, it is only you pushing your pet peave.
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
17 Nov 09
You may the unanswered part related to the fact that the queens consort was making rascist jokes about being unable to tell the difference between Russians and Chinese and I asked you if you felt that reflected badly on obama's reputation that he was wasting time on such an idiot as the UK royals are not elected heads of state. There are a lot of British who do not have the time of day for this unelected body - if Obama wishes to mix with a British representative he has the prime minister to play with and it is not right that American taxpayers should finance two tea parties.
1 person likes this
@Netsbridge (3253)
• United States
17 Nov 09
Why is this such a big deal? We are always complaining that some immigrants do not care to assimilate into the societal norms. Why make such a big fuss about some one merely attempting to be friendly? I am multi-lingual and have lived in other nations. I at times greet certain people from some of these nations as I know and remember it being done in their nation, simply as an act of acknowledgement or mere friendship.
1 person likes this
@Netsbridge (3253)
• United States
20 Nov 09
I do not know about the protocol you speak of, ParaTed. I am simply giving you my take on the matter. And I see you have again changed your avatar! (Laughs)
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
17 Nov 09
he did not follow protocol, protocol would have been to meet the emporer with an equal bow. By bowing much lower than the emporer, he protrated himself to the emporer.. in other words, he proclaimed by gesture that he was a subject of the emporer.
He violated the very protocols you cite in his defense.
1 person likes this
@barehugs (8973)
• Canada
17 Nov 09
When we toured East Asia, we could not communicate with the people who ran the restaurants or those who served us at the hotels. It is their custom to bow, (they do not touch as in shaking hands or hugging)We felt quite out of place just standing there, and soon began to return their bows. This gave us a good feeling, and was in no way demeaning.
Do all Americans feel that to bow ( in lieu of a hand shake) is demeaning?
1 person likes this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
17 Nov 09
Are all Americans this ignorant of the customs of other cultures? Prs. Obama violated the very custom you cite to defend him. He did not meet the emporer wit the bow of equals, he bowed even lower than the emporers subjects are required. He subjugated himself to the emporer.
@debrakcarey (19887)
• United States
18 Nov 09
No barehugs, but we expect our head of state to at least be prepared for the correct procedure for exercising those customs in foreign lands and not make us all look inferior or worse, stupid.
@ladym33 (10979)
• United States
18 Nov 09
I say when in Rome do as the Romans do. If you are in a country where the traditions and customs are to bow to royalty then you should out of respect for the traditions of that country and that person. If he wants to bow to here in the US then he should but should not feel obligated to, but since that is her culture it is respectful to do so to her when ever he sees her. It is just a sign of respect for somone's culture an for them. On the same token if it was part of our culture to give a high five out of respect and it is part of our culture then I think she sould do that as well out of respect for our culture and respect for our president.
1 person likes this
@ParaTed2k (22940)
• Sheboygan, Wisconsin
18 Nov 09
Prs. Obama violated the very protocols you cite to defend him. The protocol is for equals to bow equally. Obama didn't do that, he bowed much deeper than the emperor, which is so not done that the people of Japan were embarrassed by Obama's gesture. He did not greet the emperor, he prostrated himself to the emperor.
1 person likes this
@ladym33 (10979)
• United States
18 Nov 09
He probably did not realize that and thought he was doing the right thing but he should have studied up on cultural protocals for that country before greeting him. It has got be hard on any head of state who has to meet and greet with so many heads of state to know what is exactly right and wrong to do in those countries or with those people, but someone on the presidents staff should be in charge of checking these things and should inform the President before he meats with any heads of state or goes to any foreign country.
@mommyboo (13174)
• United States
18 Nov 09
This is ridiculous. Nobody with A BRAIN bows to ANYBODY else - so basically anybody who is bowing to or worshipping another person or entity has an IQ of about 30.
I don't do any of those things and I never would because none of those people are above me in any way shape or form. If they want to bow to me, that's fine but I'd be laughing my a$$ off about it because it is UNNECESSARY. Plus I don't need anything so absurd to feel good about myself
@sunlight2009 (196)
• United States
18 Nov 09
Nobody with a brain bows to anybody else?
So, those Japanese people who bow to each other are brainless ... interesting theory, but without foundation :)
1 person likes this
@sunlight2009 (196)
• United States
18 Nov 09
Yes, I think it's no big deal. If Obama, Moore, Palin or Limbaugh were royalty, I would consider bowing to them.
Teachers, principals, employers, Mayors, Governors and Sentaors are not royalty...
I dont see what the big deal is.
Comparing Obama's bow to the Saudi King with bowing to any of the above is like trying to compare apples and oranges.
It's been a long long long time ago, so get over it :)
Happy myLotting
@Latrivia (2878)
• United States
17 Nov 09
The way some people see it, it's seems like a sign of subservience. The president is not just some guy that sits at a desk passing and vetoing laws. When he goes on diplomatic missions, he is the representative of the American people. We are not subservient to foreign diplomats or countries, and therefore our President should reflect that in his dealings with them.
Bowing in this case wasn't bad. The bow was just wrong. I'm willing to bet he thought what he was doing was the polite thing...and it was, but the depth and extent of a bow has different meanings.
2 people like this
@piasabird (1737)
• United States
17 Nov 09
He's a complete embarrassment! First of all, you do not bow to someone who is your equal. But I would not be as upset IF the old dude had also bowed, but he didn't.
Secondly, you don't bow AND shake hands at the same time.
@MJay101 (710)
•
17 Nov 09
I'm from the UK. We have a royal family.
I'd rather chew my own arms off and stab myself in the face with a compass than bow before any of the wasters... It is absurd that Barrack Obama - or, indeed, anyone else - should be bowing before some shrivelled, toothless auld crone purely because of her birth.
Excuse my ignorance: when did this happen?
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
17 Nov 09
Hi Mjay, well the toothless auld crone and consort were in the White house not long ago I discovered when philip (no we don't want him back) pointed out to obama the difficulty between telling the difference between the Russians and the chinese. I asked Teddy then about how he felt about the president consorting with philp as it may reflect badly if he started laughing at the jokes but never received an adequate reply.
I'm not sure if his temper now is directed at either TD below or my good self.
1 person likes this
@debrakcarey (19887)
• United States
18 Nov 09
Again, Thea...I ask what do you want to hear? You are not clear on just what took place. Do you want us to say Obama was wrong not to address what you call a racist remark? If indeed it was a racist remark, and Obama did not reply, do you want us to say it was ok? That will never happen. Or do you want to hear how Phillip was so wrong and he should be censored for his remark? We may feel like it is none of our business, since it occured in the UK. Perhaps it is just not something we care to reply to, afterall we're over here dealing with a racist president...and as you have stated, Phillip is not a proper head of state and has no say over what the citizens of the UK go through. Obama is more than just an embarrassment to us, he holds our lives in his hands.
1 person likes this
@mcowiti (232)
• Kenya
18 Nov 09
its not always good to go the same way all of you. atlease there should be some diversity. man.
@gracefuldove (1668)
• Malaysia
18 Nov 09
I am an Orientalist. Bowing is a sign of respect. As we bow to our parents,we also bow to our teachers. It is a form of respect. If protocol dictates that you bow before Emperors and Kings, so be it. What is there to be shy?