Who Cares?

@p1kef1sh (45681)
November 22, 2009 2:17am CST
I read an interesting article in the New York Times today here: www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/health/policy/21grady.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1 which explains the dilemma that an Atlanta hospital has in denying kidney dialysis to a group of illegal immigrants. I have mixed feelings about the facts of this but was interested in something that I read in one of the comments made about the article. Apparently Americans will pay $1,000 on an operation for their pet cat/dog etc, but resent $20 per year of their tax dollars going to help the medical care of others. I am sure that this is true as no matter what your nationality we don't like paying for people that we don't believe are "entitled". But I'd like to be proved wrong. Is it right or fair that tax payers should fund an element of healthcare for those that strictly speaking have no right to live in the country?
10 people like this
18 responses
• United States
22 Nov 09
No I do not think it is fair. In fact I highly resent the fact than any of my tax dollars goes to support or help illegal immigrants in any way. I came to the USA on a green card, followed the rules, paid my taxes and became a citizen. Why should I contribute and therefore become an enabler to illegals who are no more than freeloading criminals.
6 people like this
@Hatley (163776)
• Garden Grove, California
22 Nov 09
whiteheather good for you You put it into less words and said it all.yes you paid your way and you became a citizen so can the others if they had the moxey. Nobody seems to get the part about illegal meaning they are criminals they are not here legally. thanks for the sum up.
• United States
22 Nov 09
Hatley IMO they are worse than a thief who steals one time and they get punished for their crime but illegals are perpetrating fraud again and again, over and over every new day they stay here. It makes my stomach turn to think that our government enables them by turning a blind eye to their crime.
• United States
23 Nov 09
p1kef1sh I totally agree with your idea! Yes patch them up and send them back where they came from. Years ago I remember growing up in the UK and being aware that there was a quota of how many immigrants were legally allowed to immigrate to the US. I am not sure if that rule is still in effect?
@sid556 (30959)
• United States
22 Nov 09
I know it is wrong that people live here illegally but that is an issue entirely separate than the health care I feel. Whether they belong here or not, they are still human beings and if they have a medical problem, well, I would have a problem in not helping them. I do know that people feel as you do. I live here legally and I can't afford insurance although I work full time. I know a lot of people would recent paying any of my health costs if I were to fall ill. Luckily I am very healthy....or at least I assume that I am. I just don't go to the doctors.
3 people like this
@Hatley (163776)
• Garden Grove, California
22 Nov 09
sid should not Mexico care enough about their own citizens to provide health care? surely they have hospitals and doctors in 'Mexico?Health care is a big issue here is that a lot of people here cannot afford the outrageous prices for insurance, myson for instance is still out of work.why give illegals care and yet not give my american born son health care when he needs it just because he is out of wo rk?
@sid556 (30959)
• United States
23 Nov 09
I understand where both you and Hatley are coming from. It's a real problem. We always seem to take care of others better than our own. The illegal people should not be here. Should be as simple as that. The fact is....it is our own people that entice them here by giving them work at a time when our own can't find work. I do so know what you both are talking about......just got back from the hospital and dealing with issues. The entire system is flawed terribly.
@p1kef1sh (45681)
23 Nov 09
That's the dilemma Sid. They are humans and sick. Should we not care for them? "Do unto others.." etc? But then again, do we pour care down there throats until they are well and then allow them to resume living a life in a country that regards them as unwelcome?
@bdugas (3578)
• United States
22 Nov 09
My opinion, I don't like to see anyone die from lack of medical treatment.But those that are here illegally, most of the time they work under the table so they don't pay taxes on the money they earn, we are from southeast La and I see the men from Mexico working the boats there in oyster and shrimp season. Then you go to the store and you see a line of them at the window that has western union, sending their money home to Mexico. So the tax payer here should pay for their medical treatment. They don't want to contribute to the system here in paying taxes, but want you to pay their hospital bills when they become sick. Would Mexico do it for us, NO! We work, we pay taxes to provied for the people here in the united states, UNITED STATES citizens. And the part about the dogs, we pay for licenses, for that dog and rabies shots that the state or government says they must have. If there are rules to govern dogs, then there should be rules to govern the illegal ones that are in our country. Where is it stated that they should not have to abide by the rules of this country. I don't think it has any thing to do with being concerned about paying $20. out of our pocket for people that need medical treatment, it has to do with the fact they don't choose to abide by the same rules that the government sets up for it citizens.
2 people like this
@p1kef1sh (45681)
23 Nov 09
Thank you bdugas. I think that most people would agree with what you say, however, the fact is that they are with us. Do we simply let them die in the streets? Maybe they should be patched up and sent home. If there is such high visibility of illegals where you are, why does the State tolerate it? Surely the IRS would sit waiting for them - the Western Union sounds like a good place to set up shop! If the illegal fishermen were to disappear, what effect would that have on the local economy? Are their locals willing to go fishing for the same money? Would the cost of shrimp not increase as the supply dropped and then we'd all be complaining about high food prices? That's the dilemma.
@Hatley (163776)
• Garden Grove, California
22 Nov 09
thanks bdugas you have put it all into words, just what I have been feeling. my own son because he is out of work and has no insurance cannot get medical care and he was born here, 'he is an American citizen. let the illegals come here and become citizens then it is a whole different ,story,
@dawnald (85146)
• Shingle Springs, California
22 Nov 09
To a point - for some minimum standard of health care that includes care that will keep somebody from dying preventive care,etc. But that's presuming that the same minimum of care would be available for our own citizens who are unable to afford their own care.
2 people like this
@p1kef1sh (45681)
23 Nov 09
The vagaries of the US health system are many from what I see. However, for me it comes down to simple humanitarianism. The problem is do you see the course through to the bitter end or repatriate the illegals once they are stabilised in the knowledge that they are unlikely to receive appropriate treatment once back in the country of origin.
1 person likes this
@dawnald (85146)
• Shingle Springs, California
24 Nov 09
That's easy enough when you can "cure" the person. Then you can just send them back, I suppose. Something like dialysis is tougher, of course. It would be easy to say, "not my problem", or "we can't provide treatment for the entire world", but when the person is actually in your country, under your treatment, it's a lot harder. At least for me it would be.
22 Nov 09
Hi p1key, I too have mix feelings about this, ok, why people who pay high taxes are entitled to spend as much money as they want on their beloved pets, I would too, but, there is a big but, to me saving a life is the most important thing wether they are entitttled or not, now days people only care about money and not about a life, that is sad, but illegal immigrants should pay something towards the treatments and as soon as they have their treatmentes should be sent back. love and hugs. Tamara xxxx
2 people like this
@p1kef1sh (45681)
23 Nov 09
The problem I think Tamara is that the illegals don't have any money and can't begin to afford to pay for their medical treatment. But should we not adopt a humanitarian stance and treat them anyway?
@Jenaisle (14078)
• Philippines
22 Nov 09
It is true that one should :"Be kind to animals" and be kinder to people. When someone's in need, we no longer ask whether they're immigrants or not. The typhoon Ondoy here in the Philippines have brought foreign aids from countries abroad and the question of whether it's their country or not did not come into the picture, because come to think of it, we all belong to this one globe -called earth.
2 people like this
@p1kef1sh (45681)
23 Nov 09
There is a humanitarian aspect to this Jen - that's the dilemma. I think that foreign aid is, as Hatley says, somewhat different. However, should those that reside illegally expect the same standard of welfare support as those that are indigenous? Many actually contribute to the economy by performing tasks that the local "legal" population will not do. Should they be disenfranchised? This is a difficult scenario and one that I certainly don't have a complete answer for.
@Hatley (163776)
• Garden Grove, California
22 Nov 09
but that has nothing to do w ith people who come into our country and get all the same care that a lot of us c annot even get when they come here illegally. illegal means not legal, hence criminal.Your help came from the hearts of all countries that were involved. not the same thing at all.You did nothing illegal.
@gabs8513 (48686)
• United Kingdom
22 Nov 09
Well the way I will say it now is, why should they pay for someone that has no right to live in the Country, when they themselves have to pay for Medical care They are earning hard Money there have to pay when they have to see a Doctor but are being made to pay for free Medical care for People that have no right to live in the Country I think I would get a bit upset about that Their Pets are part of the Family so of course they will pay for them Good to see you back xxx
@gabs8513 (48686)
• United Kingdom
23 Nov 09
No I would not that is a fact I would do everything in my power to help them no matter who they are or if they are suppose to be in this Country I think you know me well enough that there is no way I would step over any one that needs help, so looking at it that way it is different, but I suppose it is a hard thing to reply to Lol you got me on that one looking at it that way Hugs xxx
@p1kef1sh (45681)
23 Nov 09
I can easily understand why people get upset Gabs. But if a person was to collapse in front of you would you step over them and move on in case they had no right of abode here?
1 person likes this
@MsTickle (25180)
• Australia
26 Nov 09
This is indeed a dilemma. These are living, breathing human beings we are speaking of. People, with families, with hopes and dreams, who have suffered hardship in their efforts to strive for a better life. In Australia, refugees get almost double the going rate of a pension, their spouse gets the same amount while the Aussie spouse gets a quarter of that amount. They also receive an extra $145 hardship allowance. This is funded by the taxpayers. Single mums also get a considerable benefit and married mums are paid for staying home. Aborigines get all sorts of payments and benefits, all funded by the taxpayer. Healthcare is free for low income earners who cannot afford private health care. If you can afford it and do not take out private health care you are taxed extra. I believe helping some people doesn't really help them but in the instance under discussion I believe allowances should be made. There needs to be a change in priorities in the US. For instance, I don't believe so much should be spent on the space program and there is probably money going elsewhere (like the armed forces) that could be better spent saving lives of people.
@MsTickle (25180)
• Australia
27 Nov 09
We are getting asylum seekers from Sudan, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka. There is a thriving people smuggling racket operating out of Indonesia.
@p1kef1sh (45681)
27 Nov 09
Payments to Aborigines seem to me to be a sort of "Conscience Money" on behalf of the white imperialist incomers (!!). Refugees are something else though. Refugees from where? I imagine that Australia does have illegals too. Although from what I have read, your border people are pretty good at intercepting them. That's the advantage of being surrounded by sea. Wish that we were as good. I read today that more people arrived in the UK than left last year. Apparently many of those that left were immigrants who discovered that we aren't the land of milk and honey that they thought we were.
1 person likes this
@blackbriar (9076)
• United States
23 Nov 09
Heyyyyyyy p1ke...I would have to agree with Hatley 100% on this subject. My husband lost his job over a year ago and we couldn't even get the medical card cause he was collecting unemployment. He went from having a lot of medical problems and having insurance to pay for it to still having same problems but with no insurance. Luckily, he hasn't had another stroke or asthma attack...yet. We just got it for this month only because the case worker knew the problems we were having and did something 'slightly' different so he could at least get refills on all his meds paid for. I have nothing against Mexicans or other immigrants long as they come here legally...oh and learn friggin' English so I can understand their gibberish. I'm finding out more and more just how many legal AMERICANS who have lost jobs through no fault of their own are finding ways to beat the system just to get medical insurance from the government.
• United States
23 Nov 09
The world in general would complain but I would be one of the first ones to boot em back to where they came from. Give them the most basic care if they are going to die without it but them ship em back directly from the hospital. Let their own country deal with them like it should be.
@p1kef1sh (45681)
23 Nov 09
he US healthcare system is riven with inconsistencies and exclusions. I think that the case for the illegals one of humanitarianism. However, what I don't quite understand is why having established that they are treating an illegal, the authorities don't stabilise that person and deport them. Except that the World would cry "Shame on you" or would they?
@jdyrj777 (6528)
• United States
25 Nov 09
Is it right or fair when people come here (america) to have surgery all free of charge and yet there are citizens that can not go to the doctor or get surgey because they dont have money? Should our elderly have to live their last years in fear of getting a long term illness they cant afford.
@p1kef1sh (45681)
27 Nov 09
The plight of the elderly is much more than providing care for illegals. It seems to be a part of the Healthcare reforms that your Government doesn't seem to have got its head around yet.
@jdyrj777 (6528)
• United States
27 Nov 09
Our government sucks as do all of the governments the world over. They can all just go to hell. I believe one day there will be one nation under God. But it wont be through any human ruler. Thats the time im praying for everyday. Mt.6:9-13.
@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
23 Nov 09
I didn't read through all of your responds so I'm sorry if I'm repeating someone else. As an American I feel that everyone should have access to health care whether they have the ability to pay or not, and whether they are legals or illegals. Hello, Americans were all illegals in the beginning. The United States is one of the last westernized nations that don't have some sort of universal health plan and it should. But, I suppose I'm biased to all of this because I pay $10,000 before my medical insurance starts paying anything each year and honestly I can't afford to have anyone in my house sick LOL
@p1kef1sh (45681)
24 Nov 09
From an outsider's perspective the US appears to have a superb health system - which it has if you can afford it. But the US lags a long way down the list of those that provide access to care. You have to examine why the US is so attractive to people that they are prepared to risk living illegally in the first place. $10,000 is one heck of a deductible. I moan about my daughter's $500!
@ZephyrSun (7381)
• United States
24 Nov 09
Well I think the largest numbers of illegals in this country come from Mexico, Central and South America, and by all accounts from the media those places are far more dangerous than the US. So, that being said, what's the worst the US government does to you if you're living here illegally? They deport you, so once you're deported you can just come back and start all over. Is that 500 USD? I'll trade you any day
@bunnybon7 (50973)
• Holiday, Florida
23 Nov 09
i would not want to pay. why cant they go back to their own country and get it? thats where they need to be. they are trying to take all our beliefs, language, and customs away from us. btw, im sorry but my dog was born here. she is an american she learned english and has not tried to force me to speak dog to get along with her.
@p1kef1sh (45681)
24 Nov 09
they are trying to take all our beliefs, language, and customs away from us Is that what they are trying to do? Do you mean that they aren't all White, Anglo Saxon Protestants? Surely the US is a nation that has developed on immigration and cultural diversity. The problem as I see it relates to a mass of economically deprived Mexicans seeking to better themselves. Rather like the Irish in the 19the century. But unlike then the playing field is no longer level and opportunity only exists within carefully prescribed rules. One of those is that immigrants fulfill a certain criteria. They don't want to go back. There is nothing for them there. However, should they be free to benefit from the fruits of the US tax/insurance payer's largesse in the medical system? Personally, I think that they should be returned home, suitably stabilised and then permitted to make a legal application to return if they wish and compete with others that want to live and work legally in the US. By the way, your dog may not have forced you to speak Dog, but I imagine that she has been forced to understand a little English. Woof Woof.
@bunnybon7 (50973)
• Holiday, Florida
24 Nov 09
you do put it in a way that i meant. im just not as good with words. what im trying to say is, like the immigrants of long ago, they need to learn english and go by our laws etc. instead of us having to give up and learn theirs and not allowed to use certain things like our flag, etc. like its politically in correct. yes i agree, if they want to stay here they need to be American! period. learn things people were made to before and take the oath etc. legal.
@bunnybon7 (50973)
• Holiday, Florida
24 Nov 09
and, yes she has been forced to understand english. have you ever worked with the immigrants? most of them will say "no speak english" if you want them/need them to do something they dont want to. we dont have that option i used to clean for GM proving grounds and most of them was jealous of the fact that the execs wanted me to clean their offices/ bathrooms/ cafeteria, etc. because they couldnt understand that these BIG guys wanted someone that understood and would do what they was told. all the immigrants had to do was learn our language and therefore do what they were told. why cant they be required to do that? every time im trying to get someone on the phone at a business they have recordings that you have to push this and that for english. yes i can see why they want away from their country. why dont they do something about the country? rebel or learn more to make things better? Ireland has done so much to renew their country, i feel like moving there at times, but i dont
@bhanusb (5709)
• India
24 Nov 09
Americans are more interested about their pets dogs/cats. But they don't feel foor the immigrants who migrated from the poor countries.
• United States
24 Nov 09
Immigrants, poor or otherwise, are welcomed and treated the same as a citizen of the US as long as they come into the country legally with documentation. I know this because of my own immigration into this country. So I do not feel sorry for the people who come into this country as criminals because they are breaking the law. BTW even the two pets I brought to this country with me had all the correct documentation so yes I am more interested in my pets!
@p1kef1sh (45681)
24 Nov 09
Ironically bhanusb, many Americans can trace their roots back to family members that emigrated from poor countries.
@mommaj (23112)
• United States
22 Nov 09
I feel that it's not so much the fact that their here illegally it's the fact they get the use of the benefits INSTEAD of the Americans. My daughter was turned away for medical treatment when she was two. My husband worked full time, we just didn't have insurance. The doctor and the hospital I took her to would not see her because we didn't have insurance. She had an ear infection. I had to pay cash before anyone would even look at her. How is that for American health care. Illegal immigrants are here illegally because they benefit from our system more than Americans do. It makes me wonder why people even pay taxes. Who does it help?
1 person likes this
@p1kef1sh (45681)
23 Nov 09
From a European perspective I think that the US healthcare system is incredibly perverse. The whole concept of denying treatment to someone on the grounds of affordability is very alien to us. As someone that pays a US medical insurance as well (for my daughter who is in college in the US) I can readily appreciate why someone would be loathe to see those not entitled receive care. Perversely, do illegal immigrants not do jobs that indigenous US citizens not want to do themselves. Are they not also contributing to the economy in some way?
@mommaj (23112)
• United States
23 Nov 09
Actually people will hire them and pay them lower amounts "under the table" instead of hiring an American and paying them minimum wage. Then on top of that they don't have to pay taxes and the payroll taxes don't have to be paid because there isn't an employee as far as the government knows. So the only way they are "helping" the economy is by spending some of the money that they stole from a potential American or legal worker. I wasn't prejudice until you asked about this. LOL
@riyasam (16556)
• India
23 Nov 09
i donot agree on illegal immigrants but not ready to pay for the welfare of others is equally wrong!there is something called as humanity ,who knows one day we might find ourselves in their shoes due to sone unforseen circumstances.
@p1kef1sh (45681)
23 Nov 09
And the humanitarianism aspect is the one that we all subscribe to, but struggle to deliver long term Riyasam.
@ElicBxn (63638)
• United States
22 Nov 09
I don't mind my tax money going to help people, I do mind it going to help ILLEGALS, if they were at home, I know, they probably wouldn't be getting medical help, but that not our fault either. If they were legally here, that would be fine, but they AREN'T here legally. So, they are breaking the law, and they should be sent home.
@ElicBxn (63638)
• United States
23 Nov 09
I disagree, I think we should send them home. But AUSTIN is an "illegal friendly" city. That's just wrong. If they are breaking the law, and are caught, they should get sent back.
@p1kef1sh (45681)
23 Nov 09
But you don't send them home. Not even when you know who they are and that they are receiving medical treatment. You can't have it both ways. Object to them and then tolerate them.
1 person likes this
@Hatley (163776)
• Garden Grove, California
22 Nov 09
hi p ikey this has been a real big issue here in ca as a lotof the illegal aliens get better benefits than some of us who are born American citizens. also illegal means that they are not here legally. thus they are committing a crime when they sneak in here. I have a lot more respect for those mexicans who come here to become citizens, they are here legally. Also I would never pay one thousand dollars for a pet as for one thing I would never had had that kind of money. I do not have a great lot of sympathy for illegals as they pick off what few jobs there are now while hundreds of Americans are still out of work. I feel that Mexico should be like the U S care for their own citizens.what is with them that they do not provide healthcare for their citizens? I know I sound harsh but the illegals here in California almost outnumber the Americans in all ways plus in some cities close here the illegal boys arein horrible gangs that have drive by shootings in Santa Ana every single day and a lot of innocent children get gunned down just because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. so i am not very sympathetic to illegals at all. No we should not have to fund their healthcare, we have enough problems trying to get health care for us who are not wealthy.
@p1kef1sh (45681)
23 Nov 09
I understand the California has a particular problem Hatley. But the fact is that the illegals are there. The US has failed to manage the problem and has to live with the consequences. If they get sick is it OK for them to die on the street? Should there not be an element of health care for them? Are they worth less than a dog? Perhaps they should be medically stabilised and shipped home. I don't have an answer, but I can understand how emotive a subject it is.
@camomom (7535)
• United States
11 Dec 09
Just dropping in to say Hi. I'm WAY behind on my friends posts. Sorry for the generic comment. Happy Holidays!!!