Population control - would this work?

Solution? Education on safe birth controll. Change the mentality of folks still living in the mindset of haveing child uopn child. Another thing that will help is improve medical care to lower child mortality rates. It has been demonstrated that countries with lower mortality rates tend to have smaller family sizes. In the olden days, people would have large families because it was a good bet that you would lose a child or two to disease, disaster or just general harshness of life.

Hi xfahctor, here it is competition between Hindu numbers and muslim numbers. So child mortality rates or not, the only direction is increase in numbers. :( No amount of education is helping! Muslim ladies are getting educated. Few are stopping at two children. Even if they wanted to, their fears are not allowing them to. The radicals have really created a terror like situation. The only way out is each Muslim guy should marry a hindu girl, and each should follow separate religion. That is a tough and impractical call. The other religion (hindus) will not agree as they are already short of girls due to female fetocides. Female fetocides are rampant here because there is this big dowry issue. To get the girl married, parents have to give hefty dowries, something they cannot really afford. Because they cant afford, they kill the new born, or the fetus. Welcome to the real India. :)

Well, if you say no - then you need to come up with alternate suggestion. That is the way it is with my discussions. :) Sorry - but I am seeking solutions. I knew it was a bit harsh one. But I was hoping somebody would come up with something wise. If we dont monitor the family sizes, believe me in less than 20 years, the west would be financing our food through regular charities. Dont hurt the world with this kind of charity.

Hi, I believe that general knowledge, its (population's) after effects and awareness about population control are to be taught to the masses. The many myths and certain illogical practice should be completely eradicated. just forcing some people to do what they do not want to do isnt going to give results in the long run. I cant possibly think of any other alternative!!! hi hi

Ok - general awareness. I have been listening to bus do ya teen bacche hote hain ghar mein achche since I was 7 and I am 50 now! That is 43 years! People have not stopped! We are facing the repercussions now with price rise! How long more do you need to make people aware? Let me address this from the other end, how long do you need to make people aware - and convince them and what are the tools that you need to make them aware. May be you have some ideas on this issue such as how you are going to remove these doubts, and make people agree to bring down the population on their own!

Hi Malpoa, I expected you to come up with other ideas at least if it doesnt work. And talking about increasing head counts, VHP gave a similar call sometime ago asking all Hindus to do that! I would have shot that spokesperson. Yes, I am aware that we need to talk. But it will be considered, how is it your business. That is why it has to come either as an NGO, or through government machinery. I was suggesting a government intervention, as NGO's can be beaten up if they go around with laptops trying to explain the exponential growth and consequent demand for basic necessities. We have a lot of extremists. We cannot convince easily.

Yeah I just wanted to dress my opinion in a little subtle dress of humor. :) Unfortunately there is no other solution, just government control. But thanks to our dear friend Adolf Hitler, who just had to go out of his way to become the most hated person in the history of mankind. He also just happened to be proponent of eugenics, so thanks to him now whenever anyone mentions that it might not be such bad idea if people would control their numbers, he is immediately accused of being evil Nazi baby killer.

Hi liudvikas, I am so impressed by your response, extemely impressed. And I agree with you 100 percent but you need to come up with a solution! And fast! We are running out of time. Wish they would have given more ratings there. You would have scored highest. But to be honest, I need a solution, and not merely nod with what I already feel. :( So, best response will elude you, as the object of this discussion is that. Hope you will understand, and keep on coming to my discussions. I really loved your response. :)

hi buchi bulla birth control is the answer not goverment butting in, use birth control and only have kids as you can afford to have them. not fair to have four kids when you have funds for maybe one. kids need money to be brought.

Hatley dear, we have another issue here. We have a different kind of secularism here. We believe every religion should get full recognition and there should be no interference with the rules of each religion internally. (Supreme Court has come up with a land mark judgment just a fortnight ago but that is besides the point). Well, that being the case, Muslims do not go for family planning. In process, the Hindus feel insecure - the muslim population is increasing - they were just so much at the time of independence, now they are more than one third and so, some members of VHP (Vishwa Hindu Parishad) went so far as asking Hindu's to have more children! Now, this is silly. Things are so costly, nobody can shoulder the responsibilities. But they are competing for numbers. :( Implementing China like law can be really painful in future as well as present. Presently, it would mean political doom for the party that dares to do it. In future - there will be sudden halving of the population, therefore sudden drop in demand for goods, closing down many businesses, and have a recessionary effect. That is economics that I read somewhere. So it should be gradual reduction, and not the Chinese way. That is the reason I'd come up with this idea to get your solution.

Hi Karen, can you check your PM please. And I will be responding to this, dont worry. :)

Under normal circumstances, yes. Here there are different issues. After partition, we continued to have a few Muslims at our end. They were given protection under law. Over the years, their numbers have grown. This has made the Hindu majority insecure. So the religious heads of both the religions are kind of forbidding birth control. The feelings are strong and deep in many areas. They are targetting the lower classes through help and therefore, the lower classes are becoming easy pray to such belief. Even if the woman was educated, it is unlikely she would be allowed to use birth control measures. She would be tortured, or beaten up if she tried to go against the dictat. Not always, but in some cases. If she still defied, then the family would be looked down and become sort of outcast amongst their social circle. That is what is the situation. Here, the woman needs help from the state to allow her to take rational decision, if I may say so.

Hi allknowing, religion has taken precedence so far, and only in government policies. There are enough educated muslims who think somethings that exist in their religion are not actually as they were meant to be in scriptures. Instead they've been misinterpreted and told ever so often that it is very difficult to differentiate between the actual objective and what is written in the book. Same is very true of Hinduism as well. I think religous heads of whichever religion are supposed to be knowledgeable enough to resolve problems of the society such as if there is a dispute between the landlord and tenant, then listen to both sides and suggest and explain what is right and why before going to court. Instead they just keep on murmuring som mumbo jumbos which dont make sense to anybody, in all probability even to them. And they've become out of step with times over the years. Now, enforcing a lifestyle or law that existed in the time of Ashoka or Henry VIIIth doesnt make sense now does it? This is what the religious heads need to understand. And the religion has to be come dynamic enough to accommodate realistic modern trends along with spirituality. I really dont know when we dissociaed religion from wisdom. :(

Actually I typed another post, but there was some net problem. So I will be brief. Common civil code implies a thing that a section of people are not willing for. Anything forced creates antagonism. That is not what we are looking for, is it? We are looking for an acceptance by everybody that well this is the problem, and this is the way out. It is like the round bottom flask in the chemical laboratories that has only one outlet. So please stand in queue to get out. If we remain inside, we are sure to explode. Religious heads have to be brought to table. TV channels need to have the best advocates sitting and offering their services and arguments voluntarily. Of course there will be opposition, and advocates at other end as well. But we need to explain to them whereto from here, if not that way. Same thing for Hindu priests as well. We need to convince, and a lot of convincing is required. Can we do that? Recently, Supreme Court gave a landmark judgment giving a deserted muslim woman some rights different from those in Shariat. As expected, there was a furore. So our nation has a long way to go. Unfortunately, we dont have that much of time. That is why, I was looking for something that would not be objectionable to anybody.

Christians will quote as God having said "increase and multiply" In one of my talks I asked a question as to what God meant when He said "Increase and multiply" Why should we assume it to be humanbeings.It could be love, nature, etc. unless individuals decide for themselves keeping aside government and religion there will be no progress.

Just imagine! We are working our butt off trying to live honestly and most of our money goes in funding such populist schemes which don’t benefit us at all! And in all probability, that maid will continue living at her shanty and rent out that house given by the govt and will continue to hold the BPL card and its tagged benefits.

Exactly. In fact it is the lower economic classes that are bringing more mouths to feed. My servant has four children. She is a couple of years younger than me. Her second son is a drunkard, and the second daughter is sitting at home! She doesn't want to work! How can that be supported by the government! I struggle for about 8 to 9 hours everyday to ensure that I have my desired standard of living and I live in self respect. All she has to do is ask me, can you give me a bedsheet, and I give in meekly. I feel it is so wrong. At times I feel sorry, at times I get angry. Why cant they be taught to be self respecting? Why cant that daughter of hers work? Why cant she make her son stop drinking by taking him to appropriate treatment centers? Why did she have so many children if she didnt know how to bring them up? These are the questions that keep coming on my mind. And I am, mind you, the most generous and most soft spoken person in this building. If I feel like this, I wonder how others must be feeling.

And one of my previous domestic helps had 4 daughters. She was happy that she had daughters. Did you know why? Well, in about 10 years they start going for work. So husband earns a 1000, wife earns a 1000, each of the children earns 750, and together their income is 5000 (that was about 10 years ago). Her rent with all electricity and other bills (subsidized of course) was merely 500. They used to get food at our place, and all the places they worked. So they were saving a cool 4500 per month, a feat I found very difficult to achieve with all my education. And our state government has finally given them a house as they dont disclose the entire income. And therefore, they are below poverty line. :) Things are like that. :( So having more girls makes sense to them. :(

Hi mlhuff, abortion was never considered by me. Only financial punishment. As things stand, in our country, people who are poor were given homes (agreed low quality but never the less homes and valuable enough). I felt if a criteria had been fixed that if a family does not have more than one child, then and only then will such family be given a home, automatically people would start taking precautions. We discussed the matter at length, and we felt that primary problem was availability of pills. In our country, most women are shy to walk up to medical stores and ask for pills. Such being the case, wouldn't it be better if it landed at their door step along with some other things, like toothpaste or soaps, which we invariably purchase! Once that happens, some teen pregnances could also be avoided. It was just a thought. Of course, I do not have any way of conveying it to the authorities. :)

Hatley dear, you seem the wisest person on earth to me. At least your views and my views are so similar. When I started the discussion, I deliberately distorted what I wanted to which was 2 years gap. I was hoping somebody would defy my statements and come up with better alternative than what I had in mind. I have already told you in the first post where affordability issue is going. Nobody wants to hear those words. It has reached a critical level. Now, if we dont start cutting down on numbers, soon the US, and the other European nations will be doing regular charity to feed our population. I am 100 percent with you even on welfare system. People get habituated to taking. Self respect needs to be cultivated. Any amounts withdrawn should be repayable with some interest. Too much of charity is not good either.

I too hate the idea of abortion. Life is to be respected at all cost, but responsibility needs to be imposed. Earlier, I too felt a family that is rich and can afford should be allowed to have more kids. But over a period, my thinking has changed in this regard. I feel richness is not permanent. The person makes one bad investment, and all that money vanishes! Moreover it is discriminatory. The rich and poor divide will simply get worse. :( I think same rule should be valid. There is, of course, another argument that such divide may motivate people to work harder so that they earn better. What is certain in my mind is that if there is not enough to feed, clothe, shelter the child, and keep the child healthy, the child shouldnt be brought into the world. How we go about it is a different issue. I would impose higher rate of taxes on people who have more children, and disqualify the non-taxable people from availing any government dole outs.

Hi yugasini, I am not saying she should compulsorily have. She doesnt want children, she shouldnt have them. :) Thanks for responding. :)

Yeah Sudiptucalling, its so unfortunate that government employees are one of the major causes for this nation falling behind. Not only do they take fat salaries. They also take bribes. :( I agree that one woman one child policy is badly needed. Did you know that even the person who is offered incentive to educate and advocate family planning takes a commission out of Rs.100 that is offered for such vasectomy operations? Our watchman was deprived of that money! Who will come forward if this is the state of affairs.

Thanks bhanusb. I do think we need educating people, convincing, and a little bit of support from government machinery to curtail this problem before it becomes unmanageable (it is already. :)). Thank you for seeing merit in this. :) I am afraid China's one child policy will have a lot of backlash, not to mention problems in future when they desperately need labor and wouldnt have any. Moreover, their goods will become much cheaper at that point of time, as there will be no demand since that much of population would not be there. At least that is what I read somewhere. :) Thanks for responding. :)

Hi borg, first point, the right is not surrendered. It is only spaced so that the period of fertility gets wasted. So even if the person wants more children, they can have provided the span is maintained. Second thing, as I look at it, I think here it is a conflict between the right of the woman to have more children versus the right of the child to have better life. Which should take precedence?

Hi vanillarey, I thought I replied this one. Ah! well. If that were so, our food cost would not be up. As things stand the land that you see is not good enough to grow anything, even if something can be grown on it, it would not be enough to break-even, i.e., the farmer would incur a loss! Therefore, we can either set up an industry there, or use it to live on. So where do we grow our food! We have limited land for growing food and vegetables. In Mumbai, people grow green vegetables in land lining the railway tracks. Unless we act now, we will soon be in a position where nothing we do is going to save the situation. That is the idea. If fertile lands get used up to live and develop as roads then that day is not far. :( Simple logic, lands on city outskirts are used to grow vegetables, and fruits. When real estate prices rise, the owners of these lands are happy enough to move further out, increasing the distance, and adding transportation cost to our food. Real estate prices increase because of housing demand, and housing demand increases because of population. Once the vegetable farmer moves out, he is willing to pay slightly higher price for the lands on outskirts. Obviously, other lands feel the ripples. So cost of lands in all villages goes up. Once a farmer invests so much on land, then he has to earn enough returns, isn't it? If it is not feasible he will not grow food! That is all. Why does he not get good return? We have a minimum support price that the government fixes. Traders do not give much above that rate. Why does government restrict that price. If the government does not, half us would be starving.

Hi agv, I dont think you all will have as much of problem as we have in India. :) This is because litracy is high, and therefore, people can be convinced. Here, we dont really have a common language except English. There is almost 70 percent of the population that doesnt read English. And within 30 percent there are ample who come from such households where English is just reduced to going out and earning livelihood. Therefore, they cant convince the people in their homes. We dont really have time to sit and educate. :( By the time it may be too late. :( People realize when they watch others. Hopefully, it will happen here.

Hi zahidz, your response was good, and brief. I only wish you'd told how to go about making people agree on this issue. :) And I am kind of scared of the word "impossible". There is some passive acceptance - something that says "I give up". I cant give up. That is why I was seeking your valuable opinion about whether it would work, or not, and if not, what should be done. Thanks for sharing. I will be starting another one on this shortly. Let us try to come up with solutions. And sideline things that wont work.