Was Jesus a Vegetarian? Were the disciples & the Prophets of old vegetarians?

Adelaide, Australia
July 24, 2010 7:55pm CST
Shouldn't all Christians today be at least vegetarian, if not vegan, as Dr Kellogg (of the famous line of breakky cereals) persuaded Seventh Day Adventists to become? There is a growing body of evidence & books published arguing that Jesus & his disciples were vegetarian. I'll venture a brief summary. The Garden of Eden, God's perfect world, was vegan (Genesis 1:29-30). Immediately, God calls this ideal & non-exploitative relationship "good" (Genesis 1:31). This is the one time when God makes such a statement. Then follows many years of fallen humanity, when people held slaves, waged wars, ate animals & committed many other violent acts. Although there are passages in the scriptures that appear to endorse eating animals, war, slavery, polygamy, animal sacrifices & other practices most of us would find immoral, these passages are a representation of what existed as a part of fallen humanity, not of God's ideal plan or vision. Despite the fall, the Prophets tell us to expect a new age, a return to Eden, God's Peaceable Kingdom, when even the lion will lie down with the lamb & there will be no bloodshed or violence at all, "for the Earth will be filled with the knowledge of God" (both in Isaiah 11). If Jesus is the new Adam who returns us to the Garden of Eden, as Christians believe, & if he is the Prince of Peace described in Isaiah 11, who ushers in God's new & veg*n vision, it would be inconceivable for him to dine on animal carcasses or endorse this behavior. According to the evidence, there were many faith-based vegetarian Jews in Jesus time (see www.jewishveg.com for more). Jews understood that God's ideal was the veg*n Garden of Eden depicted in Genesis & the Peaceable Kingdom described by the Prophets. Three issues that distinguished the Jewish religious sects that advocated living the veg*n ideal on earth were: baptism in place of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins, opposition to selling animals for slaughter in the temple & celebration of the Passover with unleavened bread instead of lamb. In Jesus time, preaching baptism for forgiveness of sins in place of animal sacrifice placed one clearly among the veg*n sects of Judaism who were attempting to usher in the new age of Isaiah 11. It would not have been lost on anyone in first century Palestine that John, who came to "prepare a way for the Lord", was baptizing people, not sacrificing animals. Isaiah 11, of course, declares that God's will is for compassion, for an age when even the lion lies down with the lamb, & there's no bloodshed at all. For example, Luke explains that "the will of God" is baptism for the forgiveness of sins, "whereas the Pharisees & the teachers of the law, in not letting themselves be baptized, ignored this will of God". Thus, John preached baptism for the forgiveness of sins, Jesus was baptized, & the Gospels & Acts all clearly & consistently advocate baptism. For the Jews who were not vegetarians, animal sacrifice was the way to forgiveness, (& of course, after the sacrifice, the animal was eaten), but for the veg*n Jews, baptism was advocated. Complementing the new focus on baptism, were opposition to the Temple, where the animals were sacrificed, & celebration of the passover without the lamb (slaughtered sacrificially in the Temple). In fact, Jesus rails against the Temple, & his single act of direct confrontation with the authorities is in the Temple, the slaughterhouse of first century Palestine, when he engages in direct action by casting out all those selling animals for sacrifice. We can debate his reasons, but the practical effect was a Jew preventing other Jews from engaging in the Passover slaughter that they felt was called for by God. Clearly, Jesus rejects this idea, claiming twice that they should all learn the meaning of Hosea, when he says, speaking for God, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice". Additionally, there are no scriptures in which Jesus eats lamb, which he'd surely have eaten at Passover, had he not been veg*n. Vegetarian Jews, as one significant aspect of their faith, celebrated a perfectly orthodox vegetarian Passover. We see Jesus eating on the Passover exactly twice & neither time is lamb involved. John places the first multiplication miracle on the Passover, yet the disciples ask Jesus only, "where will we buy enough bread to feed all these people?", giving not even a thought to lamb, which would've been eaten had they not been veg*ns opposed to animal sacrifice. The Last Supper was a Passover meal & was also apparently veg*n. The non-vegetarians ate lamb at the Passover, whereas the veg*ns ate only unleavened bread, as it seems, did Jesus. One last point to make is that many Christians of the first three centuries, including all of the "Desert Fathers", were vegetarians & that they continued, despite being Jewish, to celebrate the Passover with bread & fruit of the vine, not lamb's flesh. It would be very strange for the first Christians to have adopted a diet not followed by Jesus himself. Let's now take a look at the Fish Stories... No, on second thoughts, this argument is long & I'll have to pick it up tomorrow if time allows, maybe starting a separate topic. For now, I'll leave you with a handful of passages that further support a veg*n (this means vegetarian or vegan) diet that you can look up for yourselves. Genesis 1:28-30 Leviticus 19:26 Numbers 11:18-20 Numbers 11:31-34 Deuteronomy 5:17 Exodus 20:13 Psalm 78: 27 & 29-31 Proverbs 12: 10-11 Proverbs 15:17 Proverbs 23:19-20 Isaiah 1: 11-16 Isaiah 7:14-15 Isaiah 11:7 Isaiah 66:2-3 Daniel 1 Zechariah 9:7 Matthew 5:21 Romans 14:21 Romans 12:1-2 1 Corinthians 8:13 I'm happy to explain anything that is unclear to you. Let us know what you think.
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9 responses
• India
25 Jul 10
After God created Adam and Eve, he expected them to live of the fruits that grew in the Garden of Eden. However, they disobeyed God and God had banished them. From Garden they went to live in the forest. Adam was no farmer; he did not know how to grow food. He might have built a shelter for himself on a treetop. From other predators, he learned to hunt. He became a skilled hunter. God had forced him to become a hunter. He learned to live by his instincts because God had created Adam of the dust and Eve God had created out of his bones. Therefore, sin was in his flesh and his bones. Adam is not responsible for his sinfulness, but God is, because He created him thus. The proponents of vegetarianism argue that as humans we must not eat flesh because it is a flesh of living things. However, plants too have life in them. In fact, they are more sensitive then living things. They are better than other living things because they do not eat other to survive, but they make their own food, through photosynthesis process. When we eat vegetables, the only difference is that if we eat vegetables we are herbivorous; or else we are carnivorous. It is same; our nature is such that we can sustain life only if we kill others. I see no difference. Human will turn divine only after they would learn to make their own food. As long as they eat flesh or eat vegetable, they would remain despicable. Now to answer your question given in the title, Jesus was not a vegetarian; and neither his disciples nor the prophets were vegetarians. On the contrary, Jesus had said, what goes into your mouth does not defile you but what comes out of your mouth does.
2 people like this
• United States
28 Jul 10
Please explain how I am misinterpreting this passage: Mark 6:41 (New International Version) Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. Or this one: Matthew 5:17-20 (New International Version) Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. Or this one *Old Testament but still the word of God*: Deuteronomy 14:3-20 (New International Version) 3 Do not eat any detestable thing. 4 These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, 5 the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope and the mountain sheep. 6 You may eat any animal that has a split hoof divided in two and that chews the cud. 7 However, of those that chew the cud or that have a split hoof completely divided you may not eat the camel, the rabbit or the coney. Although they chew the cud, they do not have a split hoof; they are ceremonially unclean for you. 8 The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses. 9 Of all the creatures living in the water, you may eat any that has fins and scales. 10 But anything that does not have fins and scales you may not eat; for you it is unclean. 11 You may eat any clean bird. 12 But these you may not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 13 the red kite, the black kite, any kind of falcon, 14 any kind of raven, 15 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 16 the little owl, the great owl, the white owl, 17 the desert owl, the osprey, the cormorant, 18 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.[/i] 19 All flying insects that swarm are unclean to you; do not eat them. 20 But any winged creature that is clean you may eat. Please explain your interpretations of the passages you left. Yes, I will be reading them over after I finish my other studies this evening. I do wish to try to understand what makes you think/believe this. Lamb and brisket are served for Passover--which includes Christians that observe and honor the Passover that Jesus longed to have been able to attend, but He was busy getting crucified for our sins the evening the feast was to begin. Can you understand why many Christians or Believers in Christ (depending on which label one might choose) might react defensively to your very new-age statements?
• Adelaide, Australia
30 Jul 10
Thank you for your patience; sorry for my delay. Your passage on Deuteronomy was earlier cited by Mykal_J, which I have already commented on (see also the final comment to Jaytech). If you feel you have something to further add, or wish to comment on my comments, please feel free to do so. Your passage in Mark I have covered in another separate discussion topic on fish. I'd like you to comment on this topic also, if you wish. Your passage from Matthew seems to show as much support for the passages I've presented thus far as it does for those which others have also presented. While there is nothing wrong with the quotes contained in this discussion thus far, the problem seems to come in our understanding of them & their relevance or applicability to this discussion topic. It probably boils down to perspective in the end. Thank you for the extra trouble you went to in typing out these passages for us. It makes it easy for me & everyone else to be reminded immediately about what you're referring to & helps to see the version you used to arrive at your understanding of the situation. If I can try your patience but a little more, I hope to comment on your final paragraph in a few hours (or less) from now. Peace be with you :-)
• Adelaide, Australia
2 Aug 10
Again, very sorry for the delay. Hopefully this will explain my selection of passages from the Holy Bible that I believe support a veg*n diet. I'll also type out the Authorized Standard Version below each one. Genesis 1:28-30 "...Rule over the fish of the sea & the birds of the air & over every living thing that moves on the ground". Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth & every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth & all the creatures that move on the ground - everything that has the breath of life in it - I give every green plant for food". And it was so. And God blessed them, & God said unto them, Be fruitful & multiply, & replenish the earth, & subdue it: & have dominion over the fish of the sea, & over the fowl of the air, & over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, & every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed: to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, & to every fowl of the air, & to everything that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: & it was so. This is God's original plan for us & the animals, specifically, how each was designed to eat the plants God created specifically for us to eat. His plan also specified that we should rule over, or have dominion over the animals, given to us to care for & befriend; not to eat. This is God's intention, in the ideal Garden of Eden. Every part of our bodies was purpose - built to eat plants. Our teeth are very different from those of a carnivore, our incisors are for eating fruits & nuts, not tearing flesh & humans are not born with sharp teeth already formed, as carnivores are. Our stomach acids are far too weak to digest flesh; a cat's stomach acids are pH 3, for example. Our intestines are very long & convoluted, like a herbivore's, not very short & smooth, like a carnivore's. You may refer to PETAs website for further details. Sorry, out of time again... will continue with this in a few hours...
• Adelaide, Australia
3 Aug 10
Numbers 11:31-34 Suddenly the Lord sent a wind that brought quails from the sea... so all that day, all night & all the next day, the people worked catching quails; no-one gathered less than 1000kg... but while the meat was still between their teeth & before it could be consumed, the anger of the Lord burned against the people & He struck them with a severe plague. That place was named Kibroth Hattaavah (which means 'graves of craving'), because there they buried the people who had craved meat. And there went forth a wind from the Lord, & brought quails from the sea, & let them fall by the camp, as it were a day's journey on this side, & as it were a day's journey on the other side, round about the camp, & as it were two cubits high upon the face of the earth. And the people stood up all that day, & all that night, & all the next day, & they gathered the quails: he that gathered least gathered ten homers: & they spread them all abroad for themselves round about the camp. And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord was kindled against the people, & the Lord smote the people with a very great plague. And he called the name of that place Kibroth-hattaavah: because there they buried the people that lusted. This is the immediate fulfillment of God's promises in the previous verses. It was even worse than predicted, with that plague at the end. God provided for his people in the desert, he must have, or the people would not have survived to this point. But the people craved the meat they'd eaten while still slaves in Egypt. So the people prayed for meat, worrying about what they will eat when they should not be worried (see what Jesus said on the matter of worrying about what we should eat & wear in Matthew, as previously discussed). The end result was that God finally gave in as He was sick of hearing them praying like that all day & night. So he gave the people what they demanded, but the people had to pay for it; & pay they did. It actually followed a law previously discussed in Genesis, I believe... "I will require the blood of every man at the hand of every beast & every other man...", or words to that effect. Or in New Testament terminology, Galatians 6:7 "... as a man sows, so shall he reap".
@owlwings (43910)
• Cambridge, England
25 Jul 10
I think that whether or not one chooses to eat meat (or any animal products) is a purely personal decision. I will respect your decision not to do so and, were you to eat at my table, would not offend you by offering anything which I understood to be unwholesome to you. At the same time, I would expect the same respect from you for my understanding of what is wholesome for me. Quoting Scripture to support your argument is pointless. By that token I could argue that Jesus supported and encouraged cannibalism (which most people, I think, - even Roman Catholics - would consider ridiculous). It is quite clear that Jesus at least condoned and understood other people's need to eat meat otherwise He could not have divided the loaves and fish amongst the people on the shores of Galilee.
@TexLadyPj (1328)
• United States
25 Jul 10
Herro owlwings What a fantastic response. You are clear and to the point, yet respectful. We celebrate the Passover meal at our church. I can't tell you all the ingrediants or what they mean. We have a gentleman born and raised Jewish. He is now a born-again Christian. He speaks Hebrew and explains the meal as we eat. Part of it is bitter root, part of it is lamb. I trust his knowledge and presentation. Prosperous mylotting
• Adelaide, Australia
25 Jul 10
Thank you for your respectful & dignified response. I will also respect your choice. Human free will is something that we cannot interfere with, but with that privilege comes responsibility & the consequences also of our actions. We must of course maintain our bodies with what we believe is proper nutrition. It is our duty to care for our bodies as best we know how. I'd welcome any quotes you can offer to show Jesus supports / encourages cannibalism. It may be some misunderstanding. As I've attempted to show, Jesus never condoned other people eating meat & actively spoke out against it. As I will show tomorrow in another topic, there's something about the loaves & so-called fish I'd like to present to you... sorry, I'm out of time now :-(
@owlwings (43910)
• Cambridge, England
25 Jul 10
My comment about cannibalism was, of course, not intended seriously at all except as an example of how scripture may be used to 'prove' almost anything you want (provided you don't examine the claims too closely). I am referring, of course, to the accounts of the Last Supper where several versions seem to imply that Jesus is asking his disciples to eat his actual flesh and drink his blood. These passages are the basis for the doctrine of Transubstantiation (to which, personally, I do not subscribe). In looking for references, I came across this article: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/cannibal.html which also details a prophesy and actual occurrence of cannibalism (during the Siege of Jerusalem). Of course, these references do not condone it in any way, in fact, it is represented as a punishment.
@Jaytech (2251)
26 Jul 10
Matthew 6:25-34 25 "For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink ; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing ? 26 "Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? *********************************************************************** This chapter is Jesus instructing his followers to NOT be anxious or worry about what we eat or drink (among other things) & outright saying we are worth much more than birds, so it is safe to say that we can assume the same applies to all animals not just the birds, so to imply Jesus was a vegetarian or a vegan is an outright lie & fabrication by people with an agenda.
• United States
28 Jul 10
Please explain how I am misinterpreting this passage: Mark 6:41 (New International Version) Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. Or this one: Matthew 5:17-20 (New International Version) Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. Or this one *Old Testament but still the word of God*: [i]Deuteronomy 14:3-20 (New International Version) 3 Do not eat any detestable thing. 4 These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, 5 the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope and the mountain sheep. [a] 6 You may eat any animal that has a split hoof divided in two and that chews the cud. 7 However, of those that chew the cud or that have a split hoof completely divided you may not eat the camel, the rabbit or the coney. [b] Although they chew the cud, they do not have a split hoof; they are ceremonially unclean for you. 8 The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses. 9 Of all the creatures living in the water, you may eat any that has fins and scales. 10 But anything that does not have fins and scales you may not eat; for you it is unclean. 11 You may eat any clean bird. 12 But these you may not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 13 the red kite, the black kite, any kind of falcon, 14 any kind of raven, 15 the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, 16 the little owl, the great owl, the white owl, 17 the desert owl, the osprey, the cormorant, 18 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat. 19 All flying insects that swarm are unclean to you; do not eat them. 20 But any winged creature that is clean you may eat.[/i] Please explain your interpretations and show us valid scriptures that say Jesus did not eat meat and also instructed His followers to not eat meat of any kind.
1 person likes this
@Jaytech (2251)
28 Jul 10
Romans, Chapter 14 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgement on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. **************************************************************************** Apparently God sees someone that eats only vegetables as weak 1 Timothy 4:1-5 (New American Standard) Apostasy 1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude ; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer. ******************************************************************************* The above speaks for itself
• Adelaide, Australia
27 Jul 10
Let's examine this chapter. Jesus begins it (after advising on such things as how to give alms), by answering a common question "how shall we pray?". Jesus runs through the Lord's Prayer & is consistently mentioning that we should pray about & live our lives concentrating only on God & not outward appearances. Yet from 6:16-19 we find Jesus concentrating on looking after our bodies in the normal way so as not to reap earthly rewards; that we should anoint our heads, wash our faces, not disfigure our faces & comb our hair. Jesus reminds us to rely on God, for your Heavenly Father knows your every need before you even ask. Jesus isn't telling us just to eat & drink whatever we like, on the contrary, he was a living example of God's design for us. His message was that our treasure should be laid in heaven, not hoarded on earth. God has his arrangements for us... the birds still eat their food as per God's design, & we eat ours & take care of our daily needs, not just be lazy & not work. Jesus aim was to free his disciples from worry & trust God to provide. I'm sorry, but you really badly misunderstand the passage you point to in support of your argument. It really has nothing to do with instructions regarding food. Please use online study guides if your Bible has no commentary & you may find Jesus real intention in his example. Jesus used our daily needs of food and clothing as examples, not topics of his teaching here. I will also leave you to study other works online or offline on the Essenes, Nazarenes & life of Jesus & books on his other teachings that you may gain a better understanding of Jesus & the Holy Bible. Thank you for your efforts. Peace be with you.
@urbandekay (18278)
15 Jan 11
As a vegetarian of 10 years I am a little torn. One the one hand it feels concordant with the character of Jesus to be vegetarian but I do not find the evidence that he belonged to a vegetarian sect or that fish is a mistranslation of food convincing all the best urban
• Adelaide, Australia
16 Jan 11
Fair enough. It's good to hear you have been vegetarian for ten years. Thank you for your interest in this discussion. It sounds like you've read both of my related topics. Although I've tried to include as much information as I have available to me, I never intended to present this discussion as "complete" in any way. Perhaps it can best be viewed as a starting point for anyone interested in pursuing the topic further. To expand upon a point I've already raised, you may like to read the bible quotes others have raised throughout these discussions using the original Greek & Hebrew versions of the Holy Bible before they were (mis)translated eventually into English. You would have better access to these than I do, but I can look them up for you if you wish. Actually, you may find them in your larger libraries. The New Testament in Ancient Greek. Westcott-Hort text from 1881 combined with the NA26/27 Variants. Current Version prepared & edited by Maurice A. Robinson, Ph.D. or The New Testament in The Original Greek by Brooke Foss Westcott & Fenton John Anthony Hort, London: Macmillan, 1881 Seeing is believing. All the Very Best.
@elmiko (6630)
• United States
25 Jul 10
i don't know if he was or not. i thought he ate fish at the least.
• Adelaide, Australia
25 Jul 10
I'll get to that on another topic shortly... stay tuned :-)
• Adelaide, Australia
30 Nov 10
My other topic on this has been running for many months now. You may find it here: http://www.mylot.com/w/discussions/2365359.aspx Your comments are also welcome there.
@lilaclady (28207)
• Australia
12 Nov 11
I am a vegetarian and I have been in many arguments about animals, people always say to me that animals were put on this earth for us to eat, I don't agree with this, but not being religious I never had the facts to argue back as I have often had passages from the bible thrown at me that seems to go their way..but I personally think animals should be treasured and loved....
@magtibaygom (4858)
• Philippines
25 Jul 10
I'm a Seventh-Day Adventist. I think why our church encourage us to become vegetarians is, it is for our own good, for our good health. Our church is not strict when it comes to that, but we are strongly advised we become vegetarians. We know it's really hard to follow that, but for those who are having hard-time withdrawing from eating meat, there's a moderate way to withdraw, like becoming a "lacto-ovo vegetarian". As lacto-ovo vegetarians, we are vegetarians but from time to time, we consume milk and eggs, so we don't miss the nutrients offered by these foods.
• United Arab Emirates
25 Jul 10
I dont feel that bible should be a matter of discussion. There are lots of theories that will raise questions. But as per the current world we need to have equal number of people who are vegetarian and non vegetarians to balance the earth. Its the survival of the fittest. But is should say that you have raied a good discussion and you have done the ground work well..
• Adelaide, Australia
26 Jul 10
The Holy Bible believes that the Bible should be a matter of discussion. Remember how Jesus disciples gathered together in their homes regularly to study the scriptures? See also 2 Timothy 3:16-17. I feel this topic is more than an empty theory as it is constantly & consistently mentioned throughout the Holy Bible. You're right to say that it should raise some questions. Why would the Church fail to educate us on this topic in accordance with what is written? What else has the Church kept from us? Why does it discourage us from reading other works of literature on Jesus life & those of the disciples & prophets? There are a thousand others, but I really must get on, as they say... I must start the new topic I've promised everyone here... sorry to keep everyone waiting. I like your views on "a balanced earth" :-). Thank you for your compliments. I'm the least of those who have argued this cause; poorly organized, time-poor & not as eloquent, but with your blessings I will continue. Thank you for your time & attention.