Major 4th amendment issues in Pensilvania.
By xfahctor
@xfahctor (14118)
Lancaster, New Hampshire
October 19, 2010 3:37pm CST
I don't often start threads these days. But every so often, something comes up I feel is worthy and important enough to write about. This is one of those issues. First, the back story.
A woman in Pennsylvania gives birth to a child in a hospital. With in a few days, she is visited by a social worker with a court order to remove the child. Apparently, state law in Pennsylvania state law now requires drug testing on new mothers in hospitals.
The test had reportedly come back positive for opiates. It seems though that the woman has claimed the only source for the substance could be a bagel she ate the day prior, a bagel with everything including poppy seeds. Since 1998, it has been solid medical community consensus that poppy seeds, even in amounts as small as half a gram or less in some cases, can produce a positive result for opiates in a drug screening.
The woman has had her child returned to her after this had been cleared up and she now plans on suing the state over this matter. But I want to address some much deeper issues that did not go away with the return of the child. First, it is one thing for an employer to require drug screening. I still think it is a privacy issue but it is still a bit of a gray area for the law. However, to mandate drug testing on new mothers goes so far beyond that gray area that there can be no question.
The state has no probable cause and no warrants have been issued. The 4th amendment clearly states "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
You cannot tell me that after every birth in that state, that hospitals are going to a judge and obtaining a warrant for such a "search". or that judges are handing them out arbitrarily like Halloween candy.
And then there is the final and most glaring issue of all. the simple fact that this is probably one of the biggest examples of a police state mentality I have come across in a long time. Pennsylvania, I don't often interfere in the affairs of individual state law, but I am making an exception in this case. I would suggest unless you want more tyrannical laws such as this passed, I suggest you begin barbecuing your state legislators and governor until they bring an end to this practice. If this is allowed to stand unchallenged, who knows what nightmarish legislation could be next.
5 people like this
7 responses
@dragon54u (31634)
• United States
19 Oct 10
That is horrible! I don't see how anyone can be allowed to test someone against their wishes and without cause.
I see the government intruding more and more on our rights and it's time we stand up and remind them who they work for. I hope that case gets a LOT of publicity and that she wins her lawsuit. If PA gets away with, I'm sure more states will follow.
I've noticed you haven't started any discussions for awhile. I even visited your profile to see if you were still here! You always bring up interesting subjects so I wish you would be more active.
1 person likes this
@xfahctor (14118)
• Lancaster, New Hampshire
19 Oct 10
Lol, I am still very much around. I get spurts where I don't show up here much is all. I also try not to start discussions too much unless I have something to say. Starting discussions can be a burden, having to think of something clever to come back with in comment, having to check every so often for new responses, etc. It is just a little easier for me to go through the discussions posted and contribute where I feel I can make a valuable contribution.
Anyways, i too was pretty shocked, shocked enough so that I felt I had to start a discussion on it. the problem is many will either ignore the issue as irrelevant to their lives or worse, justify it by saying "well, I'm not worried, I have nothing to hide". that latter is probably the most dangerous argument to make. We live in a country where we do not have to prove we have nothing to hide and where the government cannot assume with out cause that we do. We do not need to justify exercising our 4th amendment rights...we do not need to justify exercising ANY of our rights for that matter.
2 people like this
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@anniepa (27955)
• United States
20 Oct 10
X, as you know Pennsylvania is my state and I'm embarrassed to admit this is the first I'd heard of this story or this stupid law! I've been trying to learn more about it, but all I've found is that it was passed three years ago. I'm sure if I keep digging I'll find the details, such as who sponsored it and who voted for it, but I haven't so far. No matter who is responsible for it, it's outrageous and definitely a violation of our rights. The ACLU is looking into it, so I'm sure we'll be hearing more. Meanwhile, I'm going to continue to search and I'm going to let my representative and state senator know I'm not at all happy about this!
Annie
@xfahctor (14118)
• Lancaster, New Hampshire
21 Oct 10
It's hard to find info on the bill itself since it is three years old I spent nearly a half hour on the Pennsylvania house's website and all I could find was a currant bill by the same number in the currant session. Either way, from what little I understand, the bill permits rather than mandates. either way is just as bad as far as I am concerned but that's all I have so far.
If you could find the bill archives you could likely find the voting record archives too.
1 person likes this
@djbtol (5493)
• United States
20 Oct 10
When you said police state mentality, I immediately thought of groups like the Children Service Board. You do not specifically mention such an agency, but they would be the group wanting to 'protect' those babies.
Like some judges, people who work in child protection agencies have gone way too far. Certainly they perform a valuable service in rescuing children from true abuse and neglect cases. That has escalated into a mentality where all parents are guilty until proven innocent. I know that it only takes one 'suspecting, but not confirmed' phone call from a neighbor and the agency has everything they need to walk into the house and take the children. They trample on parents rights all the time - but of course, it is for the children.
But hospitals themselves have been known to believe that they have total control over the babies. Now obviously, they perform an important medical service, but they can go overboard. For instance, if you are wanting to nurse your baby, and the hospital staff continues to slip the baby a bottle because it is more convenient, they are undermining the wishes of the parent, and this is not right.
I guess until the federal government can come up with a law banning poppy seeds, we will continue to have these situations.
@Barry331 (65)
•
4 Jun 11
As citizens of a free country we have the right to get involved and to have a voice. There has been a concentrated effort to distract and lull the public into complacency.People need to get interested and involved,turn off the Idiot Box and get informed about the Issues.
There are crazy people getting elected to high positions of power.Take a gander at Florida's new governor and his pop eyed hystrionics sometime.He and Sarah Palin could run on the 'We are Evil and Insane-How are YOU?' Ticket. Scary Times.
@millertime (1394)
• United States
20 Oct 10
I agree with you all the way. There is no way they should be allowed to get away with this. I don't understand how something like this, that is clearly unconstitutional, can even get started in the first place. What are they thinking???
I'm glad she is pursuing it through the court system. This idiotic invasion of personal privacy needs to be challenged and struck down. ![](/Content/images/emotes/angry.gif)
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