extreme capitalism is not about justice or freedom

If you are talking about other countries. yeah I see your point. A sweat shop workers kids in China has little chance of improving themselves. There is not that much opportunity for them no matter how bright or ambitious they are. Why do you think so many people from all over the world want to come to America? But here in America it is different. Just look in the white house. Obama grew up very poor. He had a lot of things going against him. Look where he is now. You could call him a success BEFORE he ever was elected to any public office. Why? He will be the first to tell you he worked his butt off to get where he is today. He had the drive and determination to have a better life. He had the self discipline it took to get what he wanted. We have a number of politicans that grew up poor and now are rich. Ever seen the story of Liz Murrey? She went from being a homeless teen to going to Harvard and having a good life. This country is full of rags to richces stories. Look at the all mighty Oprah.. she grew up very poor and now look at her. A lot of the super rich in this country grew up poor. A lot of the CEOs we love to hate grew up poor. What makes them so different from the ones who didn't? Their drive, determination and ambition. You know that in some cities the high school drop out rate is almost 50%. The ones that drop out will not be able to move up the economic ladder. Education is key to a better life. They are by their own decisions dooming themselves to a harder life. They lacked the self discipline to finish school. They lacked the ambition to want more from life and go after it. Could our schools be doing a better job...oh god yes. But you could put the best teachers in the world in those schools...but if the kids don't want to learn they won't. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Oprah was asked why she opened a school in Africa instead of helping the schools here in America. YOu know what she said? Because when she asked the kids in some the worst schools in this country what they wanted they said Ipod, sneakers, toys and other material things. None of them asked for books, paper, pencils, a better education, tutors or help getting into college. She got so fustrated with it that she decided to go to Africa because those kids were asking for a better education. When 50% of the inner city school kids don't get even a basic education of course they are not going to move up the ladder...which is going to show in the statics that less are moving up which then makes it look like less can move up. When in fact in most cases (not all) it was poor decision making skills and a lack of ambition that has caused them to stay low on the economic ladder. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't think it is a lack of opportunity but a lack of taking advantage of thoes opportunities that is the problem.

so these inner city kids somehow are genetically lacking in ambition, determination and drive as opposed to those born to upper middle class families? - which is what the simplistic view that people are poor through their own lack of drive means. newsflash - they aren't. and finding 0.00001% that did manage to get to the top from the bottom doesn't change that. this is what the upperclass in victorian britain thought - to excuse to themselves an obviously unequal society. it was then, and is now, complete nonsense.

the sweat shop workers kid will have to work harder to get a better life.Over come more and really apply themselve. But it can be done. snowball's chance in hell lil - sorry. the chance of a sweatshop worker or their child ever becoming even moderately successful is so small it is practically zero, no matter how hard they work and how smart they are. i know you'd like to believe that hard work will be rewarded but this is not how the world works, and unfettered capitalism is not fair. i am not saying that you shouldn't be rewarded for what you do but there should be restraints. one billion people not getting enough to eat even though there is enough food, primarily due to economics suggests to me something is wrong. when children starve in the name of abstract ideas that suggests these abstract ideas need rethinking. I still believe with enough ambition, determination, drive, and self discipline ANYTHING is possible. But it is a matter of having all those things. Some people have it...some people don't. you can believe this all you want, but for the vast majority of people, even, or especially in your country, it is simply not true.

Were they annoyed?

found out in a sociology class twelve years ago that the stereotypes americans have about relative social mobility in the uk and us is exactly the opposite of what is really the case. even more so if you compare mainland europe to the us. it hasn't changed - in fact it is more extreme now. went to get a source to annoy somebody a couple of days ago. http://www.economist.com/node/15908469

probably . added something about the economist being too liberal and then disappeared.

Just because there are exceptions, does not make capitalism a myth. The American dream is real and it has been lived out countless times. If it is becoming less and less, it is because it is being attacked viciously, both from without and within.

i don't think you should be teaching people a myth as reality either. the american dream was never real and is becoming less and less real all the time. you can have a society where things are both fairer and hard work/drive/skills etc are rewarded. it is called a meritocracy and personally i'd aim for that. rather than the ogliarchy you've got, and seem to want to become stronger.

it has been lived out perhaps once in a million. it is on a par with winning the lottery - possible but don't teach your children it is a realistic possibility if you do a, b and c. in fact you have more chance of living the american dream if you were not born in um america.

that wasn't quite my point but i am sorry your didn't like your present. here, have a christmas carrot instead.

Yep. Until the end comes they won't be doing too badly.

something else just occurred to me. middle class america doesn't have things that rough anyway. they might not end up with the huge piece of pie they think they will but they are still going to get a more than satisfactory chunk.

ok. bunnies are predictable. would you like a christmas carrot too?

Please, friend!!! DO send me a carrot!

Thanks so much! The picture is awesome. But I think I will have to polish my English in order to make it. What is Demerara sugar?

The sad and to me incredulous part of it is that many of those people in their effort to defend the work ethic of the rich, wind up voting against their own and their families best interests. They don't care about the healthcare or education of their own children so much as they care about believing in an disproved myth.

well i have just come from a box load of people really kicking up a fuss because this isn't what they want to believe.

well conditioned eh?

I'd be willing to bet that your father would have kicked your butt if you had even hinted at quitting school. I know that mine would have and I passed that expectation along to my children.

Something being more difficult to achieve, no matter how much more difficult, still doesn't qualify as impossible if it's not impossible. It's always going to be harder to reach success if you start from zero and especially if you start behind the 8 ball. Attending lesser schools, being from a poor background, not fitting into society socially - these are obstacles, for sure, many of which I can personally attest to. But they're not insurmountable. Some people having harder lives doesn't make success--the American dream--a myth, JB. There's no guarantee that you will succeed the first 20 times you try, whereas someone else might be born into circumstances where they're set up as "successful" without having to try once. You may have to scratch and claw out of the hole. But I just don't see how that counts as inequality as far as an opportunity for success is concerned. The roads to success might not be equal due to circumstance. Such is life. But success is a come one, come all destination. Some road work is needed, surely, but I just cannot fathom how it's the fault of "extreme capitalism."

"We all have equal opportunity at a good life in this country" well no, you don't. but anyway i am not going to go back into the culture of stratified societies because i think spall covered it very well up there.

I wonder if it was the South Sea Bubble? The ultimate capitalist dream. Total monopoly of the market designed to attract maximum investment by the unwary resulting in a massive crash. Whilst up North in the Americas the East India Company tries to make a cuppa.....

it was lovely drivel and full of bubbles. somebody resurrected this discussion a few days ago - not sure how they found it. maybe searching for the word 'bubble'

i'm going to have a cuppa.

Sorry Hatley, bunny has very nasty things to say about the US. And she/he/it has a better country?

i am sorry you are feeling ill. it wasn't an american bust btw - i only put in the states as an example of a stratified country, mainly to annoy the team in here. would you like a christmas carrot pudding too?

go back to your own box djbtol. i already explained to you what a 'nasty rant' was and that i wasn't making one.

What uncontrolled capitalism? Where? Show me an example of a country with a truly laissez faire capitalist economy and I'll move there. And who are you to say that someone you don't know has little chance of success? I don't write people off, especially when they're complete strangers to me.

uncontrolled capitalism reduces freedom for all bar a very few. no, that sweatshop worker has very little chance of ever making it, and not because their governments suppresses free enterprise at all.

capitalism with no restraints. on an individual country basis it doesn't exist anywhere. the closest you'll get is probably russia - want to move there? but on a global scale it needs sorting - i.e. more restraints - one billion people going hungry because of economics is simply wrong. and i am not writing people off - i have mentioned before said sweatshop workers aren't stuck in that situation because they lack intelligence, determination or drive.

well, what definition are you using for each?

I don’t know what you mean by extreme capitalism. Corporatism generally means large corporations and government “are in bed together”, and scratch each other’s backs. It is characterized by significant government controls over the economy, which usually benefit corporations with political influence. None of that is characteristic of a free market.

This complete leftist crap just blows me away. Yet the reality of how great the Capitalist system is all around us, yet the stupid left have their head shoved so far up their lame political ideology, they can't find their rearends with both hands. Just TODAY... I listened to the most recent podcast by EconTalk, which interviewed a woman business owner named Wafaya Abdallah, who owns a salon. http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2010/12/abdallah_on_hai.html At the end of the podcast, 58 minutes, she is asked what the advantages are for someone who comes here from somewhere else, who doesn't speak English, and has no recognized education. She then talks about her father, born and raised Egyptian. In her own words, there are two classes in Egypt. Rich, and poor. If you are born poor, it doesn't matter how much education you have, you remain in the poor class. If you born rich, it doesn't matter if you are educated, you are rich. Her father comes to America, and shows up in Charlotte NC, and knows very little English nor has much money. He works in a Hardee's (a low end restaurant), and as a Janitor (garbage man) at the local hospital in 1970. Five years later, while supporting a family, he gets a masters degree (high cost), and ends up head administrator for Charlotte Community Hospital. Oh! But that can't be! He doesn't have the same opportunities as a born and raised and educated in America! Right, he didn't. But he worked hard, and used the opportunities he did have, and succeeded. Reminded me of a story I'd forgotten. Back in 1997 I was working a Wendy's (fast food joint). There was a guy there from Romania. He escaped the civil war, with his wife, and 2 children. He was so poor, he didn't even have a car, and walked to work every day. He spoke in broken English. His kids rode second hand bicycles to school. His wife walked to the store, and walked back. But he was on time every single day, which made all the kids with automobiles look really pathetic for being late. He worked hard, and was never outside for a 30 minute smoke break. Last I heard from him, he was manager of a Hertz Rent-a-Car. Not just manager, but store manager. And not just any ol Hertz in the middle of nowhere, but the biggest Hertz in central Ohio, the one by the International Airport. And yet what do we hear from the whiny left? It's not fair! There's injustice! We don't have equal opportunity! Ya'll need to grow up and get a job. Stop whining for a living, and complaining everyone isn't meeting your every want and desire, and go get a job. Grow up. Stop holding your breath and having a temper tantrum waiting for government to fix your lives. Get yourself in gear and go earn a living. Even the story of Wafaya Abdallah, is an example of what Americans used to be, and should be. She wanted to get a degree in law. Didn't she whine and complain, and demand government pay for her education? No, she decided to *GASP* get a job! Earn money, and pay for it herself. So she got a job at a beauty salon, but she didn't like the way it was run. Did she whine and complain, and demand government fix her problems? No, she went from place to place until she found a place she liked to work. But she still wasn't happy. Did she whine and complain about how capitalism doesn't work? No, she went to workshops and teaching classes to better her skills. And finally, she opened her own salon. Did she whine and complain and demand government give her money to do it? Did she demand government offer loans? No, she saved up her money (instead of blowing it on new cars and big screen HD Plasma TVs and crap), and used it to start the place up. Now why is it that we have to go find an immigrant from Egypt, in order to see how hard work and effort makes for success? Why? Real simple. We have too many baby leftists who never grew up, running around complaining about capitalism. Funny how in Egypt, a place closely aligned with Soviet Russia and had similar economic policies, has a system so bad, people are coming here to flourish and succeed in. These whiny complainy people, need to shut up about how unfair the world is, and go do something worth while. Stop blowing smoke about how you don't have the opportunities, when people who can't even speak the language come here and are amazingly successful. Hey, if you can't take all the amazing opportunities you DO have, feel free to go to Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, or any other non-capitalist based country, and find out what injustice really is.

Doesn't matter. When you whine and complain about "capitalism" you fail. FAIL! You don't have a clue what people in other countries go through. You don't have a clue what it's like to live in a government controlled economy where if you are born in the poor area, you remain poor for life. Praise the almighty equality. Equally poor for everyone born poor. You have to same opportunity to remain exactly where you are, for the rest of your miserable life. Equality, fairness, and all that crap... all result in the same thing. Poverty and hopelessness. Look at what happened in Tunisia! Why did the guy set himself on fire? What was that all about? The government controls who can open a food stand, and he didn't have a permit. Government control. Socialism. Eliminating the freedom of capitalism. He was trying to be a capitalist! Can't have that! That's unfair to others who can't open a food stand. Capitalism works every time its tried. It's working in China. Working in India. Go read what it was like under socialism in any country and compare their "Equality" you so desire to the standard of living in any capitalist based economy. There is no comparison. People are not swimming to Cuba from the US. They are swimming from the US to Cuba. You want equality? I dare you to shut up about it, and actually move to a socialistic country. Any country where they have equality as the highest ideal. Go for it. Come back in 10 years, and tell me how much better it is.

what a shame i missed these two rants before. i'm not whining about anything personally incidentally.

i answered a couple of your questions above. and to answer the other question: germany, sweden, canada, australia, the uk (just), finland, norway, france (just), etc.

I was going to compose a detailed response but I think it would be a waste of my time to argue with you since you seem to have quite a cynical view of the world and the U.S. so I'll suffice to say I disagree with you...

I am afraid you are not clear here. Care to be more explicit?

you might enjoy playing in a couple of the previous boxes netsbridge. getting a bit too lively for my liking but you might like it.

This is true. There are many areas of the middle and basic survival is definitely not a problem in any of them. I also know that the "poor" suffer more when the country goes into a recession compared to those in any of the other classes because they tend to be more isolated in little pockets of low income communities, with little corner stores that already cost more than at the chains and are more dependent on public transportation. They're the least likely to have any kind of savings and employment opportunities are slimmer.

i'd address the bottom tier mainly. to be brutally honest once you get to lower middle class/upper working class/whatever your term is for 'not quite poor' is, in most developed countries a) you don't have real problems (like no shelter/food/medical help) anyway and b) you can climb up a bit if you want. i know it is more difficult in some than others.

"If that sweatshop worker wants to be CEO of Nike, he's going to have to learn more than just how to build a shoe. " yes, like how to be born into the right place.

quite right. that is a very, very common way of thinking. you'll also find if those same people experience a run of bad luck suddenly it will be bad luck, not their own mistakes. which is probably true, but the same is true the other way around. not good for self esteem though.