jesus, what's the big deal????

I am a believer too, but I think Charlie opened up a can of worms here. This is a community with all kinds of beliefs, and to them a message that Christ is the only way to God insults their beliefs in their God or Gods.. or insults the person that has no belief in God at all. Mylot is not the place to push one's agenda, but it is the place to discuss topics like this in a friendly way.

I have to agree that this is one heated discussion already and worms are crawling all over, this is going to be hard to stop. lol Everyone should respect each other's belief, respect is a basic teaching in all religion. I think the best way "convert" someone is to not push them to the idea but to inspire them to go through with it. Jesus didn't push anyone to believe him, Jesus inspired people to follow him. They were given free wills and with their own free wills, they were converted to Christianity. This agressiveness in shoving an idea onto someones already founded belief is not only rude, it won't be effective.

Do you believe that it is possible that more than one god exists? How can that be? If then there is only one God then as insulting as it may seem to say that Christ is the only way to God, if it's the truth it's the truth. If you contend that it's not the truth, then you are saying that God is a capricious liar. I am willing to entertain your point of view for the sake of this discussion but I need more reasoning then what you offer. If, as I contend, there is only one way to God, then what is more friendly than trying to see that as many people as possible find that one way?

This test of God-hood seems to be based entirely on a belief that the Bible and the New Testmanent have anything to say about God-hood upon which one may rely. I realize that as a Christian, you believe exactly that. Surely you understand that as a Wiccan I do not, which makes this test useless as an argument for monotheism unless one is already monotheist -- which is a circular argument. You seem to be saying now that God is a superset of BtR. You have not addressed my question of whether you believe God has the quality of being evil, however. The Pilate story as you tell it, or rather as the New Testament tells it, makes no sense. If Jesus claimed to be "King of the Jews," Pilate had every reason to execute him because such a claim violated Roman law by contradicting Augustus Caeser's strong opinion that he was King of the Jews. Things like this are part of why I don't find the New Testament a convincing case for Jesus even if I were to accept arguendo monotheism, Jhvh as that one God, and the Christian notion of sin and redemption. His only crime before the Sanhedrin was making himself equal to God. Actually, falsely claiming to be the Messiah is a capital offense under Torah, but under Roman occupation that was meaningless. I'm afraid I find "A Deep Apologetic" entirely unconvincing for several reasons: Point 1) Cogito Ergo Sum, fair enough Point 2) Trivially demonstrable. Point 3) The Teleological Argument, criticisms summarized at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument I don't buy it. (And while we're discussing it, if one wishes to assert that we know there are watchmakers because we see watches, that argues for a polytheist creation, there being after all no one true watchmaker. The Teleological Argument falls apart under its own weight on many grounds.) Point 4) "There can not be an infinite regression of causation" Asserted but not proven. Why can't there be? If numbers and fractals can form an infinite number of infinite series, why can't there be ininite causation? Further, time is not external to creation, but part and parcel of it. There is no such thing as "before the universe" for the same reason there is no such thing as "North of the North Pole" If "we would have had to exist prior to that causation" is a meaningless concept outside the context of creation, why can't there be self-creation? Point 5) Null without points 2-4. Point 6) The notion of an "uncaused" relies on point 4. Even if it did not, the assertion "This uncaused, first cause must be all-knowing, all-powerful, and without limitation to be able to do, absolutely anything that is possible to do." is asserted but not proven. Why would such a being have to be ultimately infinite in power, rather than merely very large in power, or even of a lesser order of infinity?[1] Point 7) Asserted but not proven. Even if we accept points 1-6 arguendo, why is it necessarily the case that such a being is worthy of "praise, worship, and the ultimate commitment possible?" move you toward thinking that we live in a theistic universe I do think we live in a theistic universe -- I'm Wiccan, as I said. "Pagan" is not a synonym for "Atheist." I just don't think that we live in a monotheistic universe. [1] QUick note on orders of infinity: The set of all real numbers is infinitely larger than the set of all integers, but both are infinite sets. The first is said to be of a higher order of infinity than the other.

If the Messianic prophecies were unknown, then the odds of someone fulfilling them all purely by accident and people only finding out afterwards would be very high -- though I'm going to need you to show your math work on the hundred quintillion (million billion)-to-one stuff. But the Messianic prophecies aren't unknown. Because theyr'e known, anyone who wanted to be recognized as the Messiah would immediately set about fulfilling those prophecies -- or convincing people that he did. Similarly, anyone who wanted their associate to be recognized as Messiah would immediately set about telling people their associate had fulfilled those prophecies. The odds of engineering that situation are far less remote than the random case. And that's just dealing with the situation where one considers contemporaries. 10 years after the events are alleged to have taken place? 30-60 years, as is the case with the oldest copies of the New Testament we've found? Look at how muddled accounts of the Kennedy Assassination are, and we have that on videotape. So books written after the fact by people who had a vested interest in getting an audience to think they spoke for God Himself that claim someone generations ago fulfilled all those prophecies... doesn't lend credence to much of anything. I appreciate the invite to read your blog more regularly, but I don't think I will be: I've looked over the profile and archive before, and while you're a talented writer I'm not your audience. I say that both because I'm not looking to get proselytized to and because you seem to be targeting people who are closer to you in their theological first principals. I'm a pagan, you need to make the case before Jhvh to me before you try to make the cases for Jesus, and if someone were to make the case for Jhvh to me I'd return to Judaism.

Let's just look at your point #1... One single Creator. Can there be more than one God? In order for God to be God he cannot lack anything, to be less than complete would make Him less than supreme and subordinate to something else. This would violate the basic test of God-hood. If there were more than one god then there would have to be a difference between them. f there were no difference then they would be the same...ergo 1 God. If there were a difference, then one, (or Both), would lack something the=at the other possessed. This means that the god would be less than supreme by lacking something and that would disqualify him as God. Multiple gods are not possible. The earliest copies of the New Testament were written within as early as 50 years. They were written by Jesus' contemporaries. These were people who knew Jesus and saw the things He did. Not even the religious leaders denied the miracles Jesus performed, but they crucified Him for claiming to be equal with God,for claiming to be a king and elevating Himself over Caesar.

Sin by definition is a transgression of the word or law of a god. For sin to be real there must be a preeminent god that is real and accepted but that god does not exist in the world that I live in so there is no recognized word of god or laws. Your version of a god is dependent on dogma and mythology. In my world there is no finite truth of an individual god or gods. Your concern for my salvation is touching but I see nothing that I need to be saved from. Culture can not save anyone but it can free one from the insecurity that comes from a belief that there is a judgmental, patriarchal supernatural, being that holds sway over our destiny.

Belief in sin, or the lack thereof, does not mean that sin is not real. God does not send us to Hell either. We are on our way from the age we are able to understand right and wrong, (the age of accountability). God offers us a option that we don't have to continue on a path of destruction. Remember that the truth of God does not depend on anyone believing it. Culture will not save you and even if your whole environment denies the reality of the nature of eternity, it doesn't mean that that you can escape judgment. I urge you to consider this whole eventuality more carefully.

Good luck with that.

Incorrect, please check your information all the best urban

So... were there no Christians before Martin Luther's 95 Theses in 1517? Or were there no Christians before the East-West split around 1054? Or were there no Christians before the Council of Chalcedon in 451? I ask because before those events, what is now called the Roman Catholic Church was the only game in town. To say Catholicism is not Christianity, and a large part of it, seems patently absurd.

I fear you equate Catholicism with Christianity. It was the Roman Catholic church which ordered and/or sanctioned the crusades and they were not Christian. Nowhere in the doctrines of the Christian theology are we ordered to kill the infidel, but we are to offer comfort to, bless and do good to our enemies. It's easy enough to say that neither Heaven, nor hell exist but that's a bold statement for which you offer nothing to support the position. How can Jesus be a great spiritual teacher unless what He taught was true? And if it was true, why do you deny that He made Himself equal with God? If Jesus taught that, "NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME," (which He did), then to deny Him turns what you call an undeniably Great Spiritual Teacher into liar. Which is it?

Ok, I get it;you think the Bible is wrong and just something that was written by men who wanted to control the masses, or whatever. By using excuses instead of reason I intentionally aimed at getting a rise out of some people and clearly it worked. Yours is but another inane attempt to discredit the message that the very God you claim not to believe in has given to us to explain the supernatural theocratic environment we find our selves living in WITHOUT answering the question, WHY. The clearly obvious facts do not support a belief system wherein there is no creation; it cannot supply the origin of morality; nor can it explain our purpose or the eternal destiny that we will all face. Christianity and the Bible do. That said, its OK if you choose not to believe but in so doing, (or not doing I suppose), you still have given no reason, (If you prefer), for why you have any hope of what your reason tells you is so. Explain the reason that you use which is going to to keep you from Hell. Don't bother with the, "There is no Hell to disbelieve in..." line of garbage unless you are prepared to prove that there is no Hell. But then you will have to prove that theree is no creator and all the rest that you deny, as well.

You can't discredit something when there isn't any proof of the claims in the first place.

So that's it?? Let's have an example of one of your un-answerable questions and see if I can do anything with it.

Too Short?! I don't follow the logic of that. If you're on the Titanic do you say that you want to keep dancing instead of heading for the lifeboats because the ship won't be floating for long? If it's true that Jesus is the only way to be saved from eternal torment in Hell, then how does it make sense to deny Him on the argument that life's too short? May I assume that you are not a believer? If that's true, what do you think happens when we die?

That is what I thought. Have a good day

See ya both on the mothership so

Did not the Old Testament, The Torah, predict the coming of the Messiah? Did not Isaiah give over 300 prophesies concerning the coming of the Christ? Did not Jesus of Nazareth fulfill every last one of them? I would never advocate for polytheism. The Christ is one with the Father and the Father is one with Christ and they are both one with the Holy Spirit. This is possible for God without contradicting any of His precepts. The Christian faith accepts only one God but allows that He has revealed Himself in three distinct persons. Would God endow a false prophet to do the things that Jesus did? No, He would have called on another donkey to rebuke Him or have had the rocks call out against him; but He didn't. God glorified Jesus even though Jesus forgave sin on earth and worked miracles and accepted the worship that was due only God most high. I accept that your faith has the best grasp of the Christian God but I do not get how you relegate Jesus to only an imposter, or a false god. The evidence does not seem, (to me), to support any reason for discounting the words of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. I would love to have you read some of the articles on my blog and comment on them. make your case for saying that I'm wrong and I will answer them there. Thanks for your response.

Ah, but truth once found must be acted upon especially when God commands that we share freely that which has been shared freely with us. It is our call to offer the good news, (Gospel), to the world and let them know that there is a salvation that secures their eternal destiny. It's real and forever and can be relied upon. EVERY Christian accepts one God, otherwise they could not be Christian.There were thousands who accepted Christ as divine and Also that mary birthed Him as a virgin. In fact the Bible records that the early church added thousands of followers at a single preaching of the Word. How can you have a handle like Adoniah and have these kind of facts so wrong? People give way too much credit to Constantine. He was influential but not enough to change doctrine to the point to where it negates itself.

We are not all children of God. "To those who would believe, He has given the right to be called children of God." Not everyone will qualify.

Do you even think about what you write? "If I accept Jesus or not my chances ... don't change." This implies that Jesus plays no role in the determination of eternal zip code. Then you seem to recognize that Jesus offered Himself as the ONLY way to reach God but that we only need to, ...ask for forgiveness, and mean it," Ask for forgiveness on what basis? Or good works? Our well intentioned lifestyles? Our reluctance to discourage others from doing the things they want to do, like murdering their unborn babies? Or do we ask for forgiveness based on the sacrifice that Jesus made on our behalf and by the shedding of His blood? The idea of Christ is not nearly as important as the sacrifice He made for us is in securing our eternal security. If you aren't sure that He is real then you can not be sure that His sacrifice was sufficient to pay for your individual sins. You must accept Christ as your personal Saviour and you must know that He is real or your faith hangs on a hunch that you might get off for your sin when you are called to the judgment seat. Jesus IS the game-changer when it comes to getting into Heaven; with Him you have guaranteed entry, without Him you don't have a chance.

OK, thanks

OK, you seem as though you are still on the fence but have had enough bad experiences to say, "Enough!" to all of them. I would suggest that you pray for the Spirit to open your eyes and ears to the truth of God and then get into His Word. Let the Holy Spirit instruct you and see how your heart changes. If there is anything I can do to answer any specific questions, I'd be happy to try to help. I ask only that you do not neglect this, the most important decision a person can make, because of past confusion. I am also inviting you to check my profile page to get my blog address and stop by there and read some of the content there. The problem with many denominations is that they actually push more people away than they draw. Disciple building is a life-long process and I urge you to never give up.

Well....I do agree with the fact that denomminations push away more than they draw. I had a discussion on this very subject today and it did not turn out well. Some of the questions I asked were not answered and I was told I was being "selfish". Well...if wanting answers regarding God, etc is selfish, well, I guess I am. However, I will remain open minded enough to check out your blog. Thanks.