Do we really need to be Forgiven????

Of course it does! One expects a lot more from an adult than a child.

Does it really matter what the age or the action is??? Lessons will bring understanding. Once one truly understands, there is only one choice, the right one.

When one does not understand their actions, does it really matter the age? Lessons are required. I guess it would matter if you are looking for something other than results. If you value Blame, that changes the picture. It speaks of the lessons you need to learn. As for God, God loves Unconditionally. God cares only for the results.

OK, someone finally understands just what I was getting at. I was starting to wonder if it went over everyone's head. Guilt is one of the tools religion uses to shape people's minds. Religion is supposed to speak for God yet look how far off they are. Just like you say, mankind has a very deep hand into religion. Those who refuse to really question aren't moving toward God as they think. We must show the true picture of God so people can see religion for what it really is.

I see it this way. A knife is neither good nor bad, it all depends on how people use it. I view religion the same way. There is religion that is harmful and religion that is beneficial.

1hopefulman. Maybe religion isn't the important thing at all. It's people and what they choose to do. Example; If you take any holy book and teach the unconditional love in them, how could you ever do wrong? On the other hand, if you teach sin, create guilt, use people financially,threaten people with eternal hell, teach hate and God being wrathful, I would say much will be learned when, in time, God returns your actions back. The choices are for each of us to make. God's system will teach regardless of any beliefs people have. God will love all Unconditionally. See all the petty things of mankind. God is beyond that. We are all merely working toward being like God.

But doesn't forgiveness say I won't hold this act against you? I don't see how there can be right and wrong in the world and there not be either punishment (the teaching part) and forgiveness (the unconditional love part) if we're going to be taught. If there's not both, that tells me that God doesn't care, and I know He does care and so do you.

Is the teaching part really punishment???? Is the only way to teach by using punishment??? If God didn't care, why would God create you as eternal??? Forgiveness is not necessary for God because God holds nothing against you. Just like with the cookie eating child, the lessons come until you learn. The important thing is that you Understand. Let's not forget what really counts. Anything else takes us away from the real problem.

One should TEACH rather than use guilt to manipulate the child's thinking. Teach the child the right way rather than teaching the child how rotten they are. Forgiveness will not be necessary for either in that case. Love unconditionally means to do what is best for the other.

"One doesn't need to forgive because all one cares about is the well being of the other." The well being of the other? If the child was dishonest (that's why I ask the question, was it the cookies or a candy bar that was all over his face)then he should have been punished for lying, but the parent should also show that he still loves him by forgive him. What kind of lesson do you think you're teaching the child if you won't forgive him? It doesn't sound like unconditional love to me. It sounds like you consider lying the unforgivable sin or you care more for the cookies than for the child. And if you say there's nothing to forgive, then you're teaching the child that what he did was all right. That will only teach the child to be unethical and a liar. How have you taught the child not to be dishonest?

Try as you might. I don't think you will ever get that gum up. You must not have children. You must not love anyone unconditionally because you don't even understand what I was saying. When you love someone unconditionally, like your child, you don't hold a grudge. All you care about it them. That means you do whatever it takes to teach them. When you love someone, will you really settle for dishonesty???? No, it's something you work on. Now if you are holding grudges and using guilt to shape your child's thinking, then you need lessons as well as your child. I also question if you really love that child. Further, convince me your religion doesn't use guilt to shape your thinking.If only God will forgive, we will be saved and everyone will go to heaven. Oh those poor rotten sinners who won't ask to be forgiven. They will surely go to hell. bestboy19, don't you see what your religion is really doing??? Just like the parent of the little cookie eating boy, with God,forgiveness is not necessary. It's the results that count. God will send lessons not the fires of hell. If you were a parent and really loved your child, the story of the cookie eating child would have been clear to you.

So much is missed when we look only upon the surface. You can think calculator or you can think computer. Which will you learn more?? God works on multiple levels with multiple views. If you ever hope to see, please broaden your view. So much is missing from yours. The point was not the instruction, nor the cookies. The point was when one loves unconditionally there are no grudges. One doesn't need to forgive because all one cares about is the well being of the other. In this case, the important thing became what the child needs to be taught to prevent the dishonesty.

Punishment??? God never sends punishment. God merely returns our action back to us so that we understand what those actions really mean. I guess to some people that can feel like punishment. People do not always realize what they choose. Lessons make things clear.

Do you define problems as punishment???? I admit God's children are a bit spoiled. Having experienced bliss with God, we all want nothing else, however kiddies must go to school. We will be happier for it in time.

yes what we do that becomes a blessing or a punishment,sometimes the blessed ones are also getting problem due to some one elses bad or wrong doings,dont u agree with me ?

Yes and if we describe God with angry, hate, spite, and with the important thing being ruling and controlling, aren't we really describing mankind??? Let's look at where all these things have gotten mankind. Mankind has gotten nothing but hard lessons with each. God has to be much more intelligent than that. God is beyond all the petty things of mankind. We must all learn to do like God, love unconditionally. That doesn't mean we should ignore evil. We should teach and point people in the right direct. That's what unconditional love does. It CARES!!! All holy books have goodness in them. They also have mankind's hand. Question everything. My hope is that everyone can tell the differences. You are right BLTLife. Everything about God will always add up completely.

Does creating hell really add up to you????? Mankind uses hell to shape people's thoughts. Fear is a powerful tool with religion. They use guilt as well. That is what this discussion is about. Forgiving has no important to God because God loves everyone Unconditionally. Think now. Does hell have to exist??? What really intelligent Being would create it?? None. God's actions are all around us. Look beyond the surface to discover what is really going on. Religion teaches you that the world is a mess. If you really understood what God is doing, you would see a masterpiece. Just like the ant on his anthill, sometimes it takes work to see anything beyond the surface at one little spot. It takes a much wider and open view to discover what is really going on.

I only describe God like that because it is true in the way the Bible describes things. Not saying he is only bad or anything. I guess I should ask this question. What is the point of Hell as a punishment? Yes to "guide" some of us towards Heaven before we die. But what is the point of it for the afterlife? What lesson(s) are the lost souls learning while they burn for eternity? To do better next time? There is no next time. Unconditional love would mean he would at least allow a way out of Hell to make use of the lesson(s) learned in a fiery lake. But there isn't. There is no second chance. Only more punishment. And the kicker is that he doesn't forgive us regardless of who we are or what we do once we fail the test of life. One doesn't have to ask for forgiveness in order to receive it. It only needs to be given.

Our hardest judge will be ourselves. Those holding great guilt should forgive themselves and do their best to make everything right. There are people in this world who hold onto mistakes and regrets sometimes for a lifetime of guilt. Since we learn so much from mistakes, we must all realize that we couldn't be the person we are today without the learning that came with those mistakes. There will always be pointing fingers and blame people love to place of others. This is but smoke and mirrors because in the end, the only thing that matters is the RESULTS!!

Yes of course the child need to be forgiving in my opinion any way...actually love make it necessary.And don't take me wrong I don't hold grudges to me is a waste of time a lot of people have done wrong to me but I have forgiving them! it's just I won't ever forget.

Does the child even need forgiving??? Doesn't love make that not necessary??? As for forgiving people who wrong us in life, does a grudge serve any real purpose except to hurt ourselves??? We should work at solving the real problem. We can teach and point others in the right direction. Even though people have let me down in the past, I think it is important to give everyone the great opportunity to be trustworthy.

No, I am not angry. It's more like hurt to see people making bad choices knowing the lessons they choose for themselves. Still people must choose in order to learn. As for me, it's easy for me to move on. They are forgiven before they have acted. I will do my best to point them in the right direction without malice or hate. OK, let's think a moment about the cookie eating child. Picture the smell of fresh baked cookies all over the house, Yummy. When that sneaky kid goes for the cookie jar, guess what. It will be empty. ooops, there goes my diet. Question I'm debating. Should I show up with chocolate all over my mouth?? When asked if I ate any cookies, I can say. It's the same as you the other day. One thing is for sure. When our actions return, the picture gets clear.

I must question you. Should we really surrender to the unknown or strive to do our best to make the unknown known? Should the important thing be control or simply knowing? Ruling and control are issues of mankind. Mankind will outgrow such petty things in time. Some have already reached there.

Indeed, there are many people with too much pride, however I think most are pretty level headed. We should never limit ourselves by thinking anything is too complex to learn. Step by step, God will help those who hunger and search for the knowledge. Surrender?? God doesn't want His people to surrender but to venture further into undiscovered country out of our comfort zones where great learning and wisdom lives. Let's never drift. Let's explore. It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you do that counts. Make that advance in spirituality yourself. If you do, those around you will discover something themselves.

How I see it is that there are things we are capable of learning and other that are too complex for us. Not that in the future (who knows?) they will be clearer. But I don´t really see an advance in spirituality in us; just technology enslaving us in a different way. I don´t like the word "sin" either. But if there´s a sin that manking has, that one is pride. I think we must learn to surrender.

Yes, however if we truly love unconditionally, hurt isn't the issue. Caring that the cookie eating kids learn to become honest sharing people is what really matters. Of course if those kids carry great guilt, we can say they are forgiven even though it was never an issue to start with.

I am surprised to hear you say that. Don't you love me unconditionally regardless of what I write in my discussions??? Well, I thought so. Seriously, consider that when one reaches the point beyond the petty things of mankind that it's time to advance and move on to a more advanced classroom. That's not to say there are no people on Earth loving Unconditionally. There are wonderful souls among us willing to go through the greatest of adversities in order that others see or understand. Personally, I can see no greater unconditional love than that. Look around you. Thoses wonderful souls do exist. Who knows. You might be one of them. You have my unconditional love regardless of your reply.

Yes, though I am still unsure if there is any unconditional love here in this world...

Yes, you are right. Everything will be ok only when the lessons are learned. Religion does use guilt to get converts and shape the minds of people. I see that as very evil.

The converts are all brain-washed by religious doctrine and in fear and trepidation.

You are getting close. Life is the education of God's children. It has never been about faith, mercy or forgiveness.

That is true if one holds that grudge or hurt inside then generates hate because of it. If one loves unconditionally just like the parent of that cookie eating child, it's all about the needs of the other. In the child's case, a few lessons are in order. When ever one gets angry, one should focus on getting the best results rather than merely on the hurt.

Funny, I have had fellowship with God before living on Earth. In fact, everyone has. God loves His children Unconditionally. Wayward in our path sometimes to learn but never ever out for the count. Religion makes the terms and conditions then through them supplies the answers. Let's think for a moment. Does your child have to ask you to love them???? Look at the faces of new born parents. Deep down you already know the real God. Deep down, you already know the answers. Why follow so many when deep down, you already know the way? Do you really know why God created all of us??? Every parent knows that answer. God created us all simply because children make life Grand. The next step is to teach them everything you know. Why do you think it's going to take an eternity to learn it all?? God has vast knowledge. God is not a monster. He isn't going to fry those kids for eternity.

Very Good! Pose123.

I agree. They do not realize they do hurt some people with this. They do not realize it is evil they commit. Using guilt as a tool to manipulate others can never be right regardless of any beliefs. For those with blind faith we must shine light in their eyes. God has always meant for His children to THINK and QUESTION. Just like all the physics of this world add up so does everything about God. If you find it doesn't add up, perhaps it's time to question it.

Good point. God doesn't need to forgive us, however it can do one good to ask those we have harmed to forgive us. It does show our character. It will relieve our guilt. It might also help those you have harmed who have not yet learned to love unconditionally.

When one loves Unconditionally, one doesn't need to forgive. There is no grudge in the first place. Religion uses guilt to shape people's thinking. When the parent discovers the chocolate covered child, they aren't thinking forgiveness. They are thinking how can I teach this child to better understand? They love the child so very much.

Yes,you are right.It is an ego thing. I think it is evil to manipulate people into feeling more guilty in order to shape their thinking to your benefit. In the end we will all judge ourselves. God will teach us all until we hold great wisdom and realize the only answer is unconditional love.