Conflict between beliefs and reality..
By vanny
@vandana7 (100282)
India
December 7, 2011 2:30am CST
Ok - I am a Hindu - I like going to temples. The incense sticks and all the flowers that I get to see there make me feel good. But now I suspect that my mind has been conditioned to think it is good.
So they tell me Krishna (one of our gods) is great. For a long time I prayed to him. He must have been real. Because there is no reason for me to be a graduate other than him.
But you see, now that I am a graduate, I am not sure I should give the credit to him. Did he pay my fees? No. Did he do some miracle so that I got my question paper a day before the exams? No. So what did he do anyway?
And come to think of it - they say he is good. Ok - did he look after orphans - there is no mention of that. Did he look after lepers? There is no mention of that. Did he look after the old and the sickly? There is no mention of that. Now..you see, these things qualify as "good" things in my mind. But my god didnt do these good things. At least, not that I know of.
So..if god does good things, and Krishna has not done them, then he cant be god. Vice versa, if what Krishna did was good thing, then these works are not good.
Confusion, confusion, confusion.
8 people like this
31 responses
@mitdeba610 (18)
• India
7 Dec 11
vandana
God...what is God. There is nobody like God or such. God is the faith in yourself. If you demand something from God it will not be fulfilled unless you are able to do it. Think how many kinds of God are there. You cant count them. If really some God is there whether male or female, he or she would first wipe out the tears of poors and make an equal economic distribution to people. It is the power inside every human has.
mitdeba
1 person likes this
@Hatley (163776)
• Garden Grove, California
7 Dec 11
hi but God gave us free moral agency so a lot of the ills of our people have been self made. He gave us choice between good and evil and if we follow the wrong paths we will find all sorts of woes.
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
8 Dec 11
If all were equal then there would be no interest in life I think. Nothing to aspire for. Nothing to become like. That would be mass manufacture of a car, right? Robots. Would you like that mitdeba? But each one of us has something better than the other. That is for sure. What it is and how we harness it depends upon us. I guess, to that extent, god did make us equals. Some are good looking, others are smart, yet others are so soft spoken that they cant make enemies, and yet others are so wise that everybody would invariably turn towards them, and some are good in repairing things..so many talents..
@hatley..I agree..there is more to good and evil than mere economic equality.
@francesca5 (1344)
•
7 Dec 11
you have very high expectations of your god, you demand of him that he controls the whole world, to remove all poverty, and then fulfill all your own personal wishes, and if he doesn't you refuse to believe in him.
I am not sure I would want that sort of relationship with a human if I were a god, what exactly do I get out of it? and why do I, as the god, have to do everything you want, whereas you don't do anything I want?
if all you are going to do is boss me around, and in return all I get is a visit to the temple once a week, and a few demanding prayers, and that's it, well then I don't really want to know.
you seem to be confusing god with the genie in the bottle or the fairy godmother who gives you three wishes.
but there are some very attractive aspects of hinduism, and it depends what you are rejecting, as there is no point to meaningless worship in the hope that god will just give you what you want, but a god who guides you through the world, and asks of you to treat other people well, is one I find quite appealing, don't you?
1 person likes this
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
7 Dec 11
Hi francesca :) If he is god then no expectation can be too high for him isn't it? :)
But I want god and not the scriptures to tell me what he wants from me. But before that he needs to prove to me that he is the god so that I am sure I am not following the evil ones. :)
God created me you know. So it is his duty to see that I am happy and I spread happiness. If we make mess of our rooms, dont we have to settle it? Do I have to be appreciated for that?
To be fair, he did say if you serve mankind its like you serve me and he was the protector of cows. But I also like dogs, and dolphins. So I do feel that my god confined himself to a limited set of animals when such wonderful creatures were around. After all, he created them as well, didnt he?
1 person likes this
@kalav56 (11464)
• India
7 Dec 11
Hullo Vandana! Belief is irrational and cannot be explained.But I do believe that if we believe in something God gives us the motivation and determination to succeed. Bad health and misfortunes are excluded here. As for your question it is firmly believed that because GOd cannot be present on every occasion He sees to it that some timely help is sent thtough an unexpected source .
Who paid your fees? If it were through scholarship and no one was needed to pay then it was the same Krishna or whatever force you believe in who provided those circumstances.
Belief is what carries us through. If w e can make plans for the future thinking that we are going to live that long instead of dying tomorrow, what prevents us from thinking thAT He will do good for us? Just make up your mind not to get confused and have firm faith; you will see that you start believing in this. It is simpler that way and less of a head ache.
As far as orphans are concerned I honestly find it heartrending--why should this happen thorugh no fault of their own? God only knows.
@kalav56 (11464)
• India
7 Dec 11
I am very happy for you Vandana! But, as far as your father's realisation goes, I I am very confused in assessing old people these days. THat is why I started this discussion itself. OLd age problems are so overwhelming that a person has no focus other than self.I have seen this with some people.
On the other hand , WHen it is not so with some dictatorial people, I do not know if their silence is caused by some manipulation or what.
Anyhow, if your father goes through with that decision of his it is well and good.After all, who is going to look after him in his old age and infirmity? No precous brother/sister or niece/nephew is going to do that.
Are you the second holder or nominee in your dad's DMat account?
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
7 Dec 11
Kala your post reflected many of my thoughts. When I think of god these thoughts do go on in my mind.
I think in my case - belief alternates with rational acceptance. So sometimes I believe in him blindly. At other times I find something that makes sense to me, I am quick to accept him. You put it so well "Belief is what carries us through". That is so nice, especially when we are in despair. Orphans..yes.
By the way, as per your suggestions, I finished demating my portfolio. :) Dad has started too. He is going to write the will tomorrow. Things are looking up for me. He has realized a few things. In some, his ego does not let him admit. But he has realized for sure that I am at risk.
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
7 Dec 11
Oops..there is just a minor rift right now. I hope he does go to the advocate tomorrow to write tht will. Handling this man is toughest thing. He is senile. But I dare not say so.
I am the nominee in dad's Dmat account. :) But he has not completed his end of it. He is always will do it later kind of person. If I follow it up he gets hot. If I dont, it doesnt get done. Really, my mother should've been there. Two of us would form too big a force for this man to be so dominating.
1 person likes this
@hora_fugit (5862)
• India
8 Dec 11
Did you really get your question paper a day before the exams, albeit not an act by God...?
Now that aside, Krishna was an incarnation of God. He wanted to be with humans, act like them and who said he had to be nothing but God in his acts! In my opinion different incarnations highlighted different aspects of life, and Krishna exhibited smartness. Even you agree on that.
He might have done many things for needy, but what we read are tales and such graceful acts don't make quite interesting tales. One gets famous for charity if they do things like Karna(cutting his flesh and all). Krishna didn't think like that.
Any conclusions from me? No. You are free to have your own way and interpret your beliefs. Religion is quite a personal experience....
P.S. You are more enlightened than I'll ever be. So I suggest you to read Gita and interpret it for me. Like everyone around me, I say it's the greatest book about ways of life. And actually, I can't get most of it... goes beyond my understanding!
@Bhurishrava (696)
• India
2 Jun 12
realirty is that which is. But Beliefs can be any.
1 person likes this
@jennyze (7028)
• Indonesia
7 Dec 11
You are expecting a God does things as human does. Well, I never questioned God, cause asking so many questions without any certain answers would get me a big headache... so I just believe him and above all things I am alive and happy.
It is now human duty to help the old and the sickly, to help correct the corruptions, to help all those needy people.
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
7 Dec 11
Well, I am a human. So my expectations from god are human as well, at least some of them. But he has failed even in miracles. Right now I asked him to make me beautiful like Julia Roberts. He didnt!
So you see, he is lazy.
Why humans have duties and god doesnt? Where is the book of duties that god has defined for humans?
@thesids (22180)
• Bhubaneswar, India
7 Dec 11
Poor God... Must be deafening listening to the demands of billions today... and even if He ever would try, hey it wasnt this that you needed the last moment
The Book of Duties was lost when the world was getting a makeover... remember the volcanoes and the stuff in some xxxxxxxx BC? With so much of high temperatures around how would book survive?... His fault again
@urbandekay (18278)
•
7 Dec 11
As you say what did Krishna do? Well, I am sure you know more about that than me but as I understand it he helped to destroy some enemies and depose some bad rulers, encouraging Arjuna to kill his cousins? Many war leaders and heroes have done likewise. He was irresistible to woman, so much so that married woman left their husbands? Hmmm, that doesn't seem a good thing to me, in fact it seems rather bad.
So, if a tree bore bad fruit, would you not say the tree was bad?
all the best urban
@urbandekay (18278)
•
9 Dec 11
Now why would you be confused and confounded? What is puzzling you?
all the best urban
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
7 Dec 11
Didnt you know Ian Fleming was inspired by Krishna's behavior?
I could add several more things at the risk of it being deleted.
If adultery was fine then, why not now?
But seriously, "bad rulers"? How much have we heard of their "bad rule" except being told in a couple of words that it was "bad rule". I didnt like killing bit at all. Was money (i.e., kingdom) more important than relationships? There were many illustrious and honorable people at the other end. Surely, it was his duty to save them.
Urban you've left me confused and confounded..
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
8 Dec 11
At times I too think so mayka. But every now and then, there are things that happen which I wanted but there was no logical explanation for them. That is when my mind says thank you god. And when things go bad, I do get annoyed with him. So I dont fear many things. I am basically a very just person - at least I think so. Of course, in some situation nothing seems just, and that is when we must leave things to god.
1 person likes this
@bird123 (10643)
• United States
8 Dec 11
OK, sounds like you are doing some thinking here. I'm not Hindu, so I don't know alot about Krishna, however you do so that will be enough. I do know God so let's think a bit together and see if we can see some logic. All the physics of this world add up. Everything is balanced. It all adds up. God did a pretty good job on that, wouldn't you say?? OK, a leopard doesn't change it's spots so why should God?? If the people factor doesn't add up to you then you must have pieces of the puzzle missing. Perhaps, it's time for you to search for more pieces. This is going to take much work and maybe many years. Remember, the intellect that designed the universe,DNA, and us has to be at the highest level. The answers must be more complex than what is simple to see. God works on multiple levels with multiple views. Add to that the increased number of variables when one is dealing with all the possibly combinations among billions and the task seems large. I do believe that most are capable of understanding much. So really look around you and ask yourself. How does it all really add up?? With this view along with the ebb and flow of knowledge, perhaps the answers are closer than you think. Yes, question everything, even God. To question is the start on the journey to discovery. Remember, even scientists start with beliefs. As you walk down the road to discovery, you discover new ideas and directions that will lead you to a high level of thinking. Keep looking for those doors and go through them. You are well on your way. After confusion often comes clarity.
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
10 Dec 11
Not sure it is original thought. But it is like that, isn't it? A lot of dust on the mirror so we cant really see god, but there remains some part where the layers of dust are not that thick, and you get the glimpse of the mirror or god. Why should I just accept it as mirror because it is ancestral property? Let me confirm it!
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
9 Dec 11
bird - I feel so glad to have people like you who do not say - blindly believe. I am glad you accept that there are things that dont add up and I notice them. And that I should not be shunning such doubts. I think by looking for answers, I am seeking truth, and eventually I will accept god completely when I learn everything that I can. But if I push my doubts aside they are not going anywhere. They will resurface the next time I face a major upheaval in my mind. May be then, I will be so dejected that I will refuse to think of god as god. So let me accept that he exists but let me continue to search for the truth. It is like removing the dust from the mirror, right?
@thesids (22180)
• Bhubaneswar, India
7 Dec 11
Lovely... Awesome.... A Great Find
The revelation - I am not the only one confused
I dont believe in these. To me, God is Me, You, Anyone who does good. I believe only this. And I know how that "Good" gets defined - No harm to anyone - in thoughts, deeds. Sometimes I also extend my definition and then it becomes - Keep Doing Good In whatever way you can at your best.
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
7 Dec 11
I love it when I confuse people but honestly these thoughts keep coming up so faith is impossible without getting clarification. It does not mean that I dont believe in god. It only means that I believe in that god who is good and not that god that divides us and asks us to fight for proving him to be superior. If I have to say he is superior, I must have reasons to na?
@thesids (22180)
• Bhubaneswar, India
7 Dec 11
Of course, In todays world we all need proof for believing. 100% supported.
But most of us who responded on this discussion trying to make a mess of this confusion in their right way, seem to forget one simple thing - God Exists because we let Him Exist. But I agree with them as We never will ever find the Right Answer to - What Came First? Egg or Chicken?
@topffer (42156)
• France
7 Dec 11
I am not a Hindu and I don't know your god Krishna, but I believe that God is the same everywhere, whatever his name. I have read in the Bible : "'my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways' declares the Lord". It is why we say that "the ways of God are inscrutable". God works for the well being of the world, and it is enough for me. If I was a Hindu, I would not ask myself if Krishna did or not did good things to try to establish if Krishna is or not a god : more we give weight to our knowledge and our human values, and more we risk to forget God. To be a graduate has never given the faith to anybody. Maybe Jesus looks a bit provoking when he says "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children" -- Matthew 11:25 --, but he only wants to say that the real wisdom has nothing to do with knowledge.
@dollar3235 (2062)
• India
10 Dec 11
Even I have the same question in my mind, if you have got the answer in this discussion, I would request you to summarize it for me here, it'll be very helpful for me. Thanks!
@dollar3235 (2062)
• India
13 Dec 11
I think I got the answer yesterday.
Yesterday, I had headache, I went to medical store, bought the tablet and took it with water. Now I am fine, there is no headache.
Let's relate it with our life:
Headache : Problems in this world.
Medical Store: All those places/things that can enlighten our soul.
Tablet : Blessings of God.
Medicine manufacturing companies = God.
Money: Faith.
Water: Humbleness (Not sure of the correct word here)
If I don't have money, I won't be able to buy medicine (Even if I stand in front of medical store) and for that if I blame the Medicine manufacturing companies, is it right?
1 person likes this
@bostonphil (4459)
• United States
8 Dec 11
It is sometimes difficult to believe in God or a god or a higher power. I am on the fence myself. Sometimes I have deep belief and sometimes I feel nothing and or question.
I have been visiting old friends from my past the last couple of years. All of them were either raised Jewish or Christian. I am surprised, maybe even dismayed, to find that none of them believe in God. None of them observe any religion and most did not raise their children in a religion.
Congratulation on graduating. Maybe Krishna did help. Somehow you found the money to get through school and somehow you were able to do the work that you needed to do in order to graduate. Maybe Krishna was there guiding you and assisting you. There were many things that might have gone wrong keeping you from finishing school but they did not. Maybe Krishna heard your prayers.
As for all the bad things that happen to others and all the bad things that happen in the world, I can not explain them. All that I can say is that life is very difficult. Since the beginning of time, there have been bad people and bad things. Maybe that is why we believe or some people believe -- to deal with and cope with all the bad out there.
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
8 Dec 11
So ...you are sailing in the same boat. Oh yes, I would like to believe that had Krishna not helped my father would have lost his job or lost his pay packet. So he came right in time to see that the robber got hold of another man's pay packet.
I meant - I didnt work that hard and so I didnt deserve to graduate. :) Fees, yeah..ok..
Though your last paragraph makes sense, it scares me. I cant imagine a world where I am not going to have some back up when I am facing the criminals. I should at least have somebody to take my complaints to. :)
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
8 Dec 11
Actually, I had a tough phase during graduation with nobody reliable to turn towards. :) And about 15 years after that were tough too.
I am fine with what I have now. I know what that wanting more is all about. I think that keeps us engaged. If we stagnate, we get bored. Right? :)
@bostonphil (4459)
• United States
8 Dec 11
It's a scary world. None of us know what tomorrow will bring.
Think about what other people have been up against. In the Western World, there were concentration camps in Germany. There have been POW camps in your area of the world. In Cambodia, weren't the people up against an insane dictator at one point? How about China? And Tibet? And The Middle East?
People have suffered terribly at the hands of another all over the world. And there was no one to turn to or take their complaints to.
It sounds to me like you have a good life. My life has been very difficult and challenging but still good. I have had some very bad years and did turn to God. And God seemed to be with me.
But now, I am at a plateau in my life. I actually have a decent life but it is lacking and I want more. Nothing bad is happening to me but nothing really good is happening.
@JER616 (545)
• Philippines
9 Dec 11
For your confusion problem, I hope you get in touch with this international evangelist who can answer your spiritual and logical doubts straight from the Bible-- Bro. Eliseo Soriano of the Philippines.
He has this great wisdom and logic that only the source of Wisdom and Truth could have given. Many people from all over the globe have been amazed of the wisdom and patience he has manifested in answering their various spiritual doubts and concerns. I do hope you could experience that too.
You may read about him through the following sites:
http://esoriano.wordpress.com/
http://www.elisoriano.com/en/
http://www.theoldpath.tv/
@JER616 (545)
• Philippines
12 Dec 11
Thanks be to God that you did. May the God of the Bible guide you in your search for truth.
Should you have questions, you may get in touch with Bro. Eli through his Bible Expositions conducted worldwide. You may even send him through the livestream URL at: http://www.livestream.com/elisoriano or e-mail him at: info@mcgi.org
and ask@mcgi.org.
MCGI stands for Members, Church of God International. Bro. Eli is the incumbent Executive Miinster of this religious organization.
@SViswan (12051)
• India
10 Dec 11
Well, I am a Hindu and I like going to the temple (the Kerala ones, I have to add) because I like the ambience. It's calm and peaceful and soothing for me. There it stops. I don't believe that I've gained anything from any of the Gods...nothing materialistic. But God (don't go by any particular one though I do have a soft corner for Ganesha due to the cuteness) did give me the strength to go on with life. God is my conscience and when I talk to myself,I feel it's a supreme power talking to me.
I believe that most of the stories that we hear about the Hindu Gods are based on qualities that we are expected to nurture in us....or sometimes it gives us valuable lessons. Long back when people worshipped nature and they weren't literate, they needed guidance and I suppose these stories about the gods were developed to help human beings.
There are so many versions of the Ramayana...even one where Ravana is the good one and he abducted Sita to get Rama to set foot in Lanka...which was the only way he could save his people. It comes down to him being a good king who took care of his people and did things in their best interest.
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
10 Dec 11
At the risk of sounding biased, I too like Ganesha. :) You know why, not only is he cute, he seems to belong to our age group, and is less angry type of person. I mean most of our gods do get angry but with Ganesha is is more of chummy thing.
As to your statement - qualities we are expected to nurture..I am sure I would have prevented that Kurukshetra war. As to Rama, we know he compromised in Bali vadh, and as far as Ravana is concerned, there are places where he has been appreciated as well. So, my contention is Rama won the war and so he became the right person to emulate. Is it? Had Rama lost the war, would we still pray to him? I think not.
@maidangela7349 (1191)
•
8 Dec 11
There is not confusion really. All religions and gods are part of a big con job. Nobody knows and I mean nobody knows if there is any god or gods. All that happens is somebody invents the idea and preaches facts about a god which they have invented. This was easier when people did not know how nature works and were in awe of such things as earthquakes and storms and even today some people are still gullable to explainations for events. You are right Krishna did not pass your exam for you or any other fictious god it was you by your own efforts. Good things happen and bad things happen but that is just part of life and it happens to all species not just humans. Okay some people need and get help for believing in some god or other so that is the only good thing about religions.
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
10 Dec 11
Honestly at times I too think so, though I wouldnt use a word called "con" for it because these things were done with a good intention. The object was to make people live and let others live. So they created stories quite like our novelists. At times, the characters who were real were given larger than life images. But there are other times when I feel so grateful to god for no rational reason.
@jazel_juan (15746)
• Philippines
8 Dec 11
Well our thinking and perspective changes my friend.
In a way i am like you. I grew up as a Catholic and i used to go to churches every sunday when i was a kid, my mom would bring me you see. Then we would also go and light candles and join pray the rosaries and do processions..and i go to catholic private schools so i have a lot more doze of religion..lol.. i know every prayer and every saint there is on this earth...or heaven that is.
Well, i was conditioned to think that way, i was conditioned about my religion and that is what i believe was right. I would pray day in and day out..i would pray before and after eating and before and after every exams....
but i grew up, i read a lot, i see a lot and my reality changes the way i think. And it also changes the way i see my religion. Now i know my actions are the ones that guide me to where i want to be.. i still believe in God bt i do not follow all the hullaballoos my religion has...
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
8 Dec 11
I have not been that devout, but as far as the present life, I can ditto your statement. I keep my objectives in focus and try do everything right on the way. I too dont follow many of the rituals, though I do visit temples when I am desperate for something or when sudden stroke of luck has made me feel grateful. One of my friends is obsessed with this god. So she takes me with her quite often. Other than that..we are so alike. :)
@alottodo (3056)
• Australia
8 Dec 11
Ah my friend this is why in some countries there is a preference to keep people in the dark[ specially females] because once you know something the educated mind start asking questions and you start to find out that not every thing is cut out the way you were made to believe! the more education you have the more questions you will ask and believe me some people won't be happy to answer those questions specially when it comes to religion matters! I do pray every day to my God, or the formless, or what ever spirit is out there and I Am thankful...but over the years I learnt not to believe in any religion institution...and why is that? because they are nothing but a money making...free loaders and the poor get very little out of them. Just imagine for a minute if all the churches in the world could provide for the poor and teach people how to cultivate and build an independent life...do you think poverty would still exist?...no it would not...but the church and other institutions don't want to do that...they just say if you don't follow the right path you are going to hell and we do we just have a hell at our door step.
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
10 Dec 11
Hey friend, you know something - I too think so. We dont need priests, and we dont need politicians. We are better off without these "freeloaders". They are truly that. They use only one organ, i.e., their tongue. And they use it to disturb the harmony. Yes, charity and ways to alleviate poverties have been around for ages. Why is it that despite our sincere efforts they dont go away?
@aerous (13434)
• Philippines
8 Dec 11
You should know first what religion do you belong. You must first investigate what kind of religion you are belong. You must first know who is that Krishna that you worshiping for?
Yup! There are many question for us to enter into a religious denomination. Most of us just follow and follow what the elders say and not even study if those are real?
Since you are now educated I think you know how to eliminate your doubt. Just study your religion why do you worship god instead God who create everything on this planet...
It really make us confuse at the end because we don't know why we worship gods instead God...they are also a creation of God, like us that should not be worship but given credit in what they did to make people know God...
I think if Krishna, is alive he don't want to worship him but worship what he teach people to worship...his creature that make this world
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
11 Dec 11
I agree that there is difference in my mind about the image of gods that has been drilled into me since childhood, and the image of god that I think I am seeing. I mean, come on. God cant be as small as Krishna to create a universe as big as science is showing! He is a form they tell me. Okies. But then there must be many such forms. How are we to know. May be he is there in me, and may be he is there in you as well. Come on. We just cant fathom his dimensions and appearance. It is convenient for us to think of him as small may be. Or may be our ancient people chose to make people with good qualities of their era larger than life. So we attribute power to him. Whatever, I do believe that there is god. But he is much too powerful to be confined to that small dark room in temples. Arent we a bit weird when we use chandeliers in our homes and have every corner lit but when it comes to god's room in temples it is so old fashioned?
@vandana7 (100282)
• India
8 Dec 11
As a grown up I can say that even when I was young and when I had more faith because I didnt have the rational mind, I sinned. :) So as a grown up I am not going to stop sinning just because I believe or do not believe in god. In other words, I for one do not need god for being moral and just person.