I thought only poor people didn't pay taxes?
@thegreatdebater (7316)
United States
December 7, 2011 11:38am CST
President Obama has been highlighting the lack of fairness in tax policy, and is now backing it up with proof. According to the Tax Policy Center, 4,000 American households that make over $1 MILLION last year didn't pay a dime in federal taxes. I thought that they were taxed at 35%, like republicans claim? In another study, 30 of the top 400 highest tax returns in the US last year paid less than 10% in federal taxes. Again, I thought they were paying 35%? The president is also claiming that there are BILLIONAIRES here in the US that are paying less than 1% in federal taxes. But, the stat that takes that cake is that a quarter of the millionaires in the US paid less in taxes than people making less than $100,000. Can someone explain to me how it is that the rich are taxed "unfairly"?
http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/07/news/economy/obama_taxes/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2
1 person likes this
10 responses
@MntlWard (878)
• United States
8 Dec 11
Another thing that Republicans don't bring up about taxation is that those who are considered so poor they are exempt from federal income tax have other tax burdens: They have to pay sales taxes. If they're lucky enough to own a home they have property taxes. If they're renting they pay their landlords' property taxes. If they own a car they have to pay property taxes on that as well as the taxes on gas that will keep the car running. Etc.
1 person likes this
@Taskr36 (13963)
• United States
9 Dec 11
"totally IGNORE the fact that the poor and middle class people pay state taxes as well."
And don't left wingers love to ignore what wealthy people pay in state taxes? Do you realize that wealthy people in some areas are paying more than 60% of their income in taxes when you include state and local taxes? Of course that doesn't matter. Rich people don't deserve the money they earn in your mind.
1 person likes this
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
9 Dec 11
Isn't it funny how republicans love to talk about how much the rich pay when they include state taxes. But, totally IGNORE the fact that the poor and middle class people pay state taxes as well. You know when the rich can hide their money off shore so they pay no state, or federal tax on it. Got to love republican class warfare!!!!
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
10 Dec 11
Taskr, FIND ME ONE PERSON PAYING 60%, AND I WILL CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION WITH YOU.
GOOD LUCK!!!!
@Taskr36 (13963)
• United States
8 Dec 11
4,000 people... Yup, those 4,000 should definitely be paying taxes. Of course only a lefty would make such a big deal about 4,000 people, exactly 0.0026% of the population, rather than worry about the 47%-51% that don't pay taxes. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely not fair that 3.1 million millionaires in this country are paying taxes while 4,000 skate by, but why aren't you bothered in the slightest by the 70.5 million in this country that aren't paying a dime in federal income taxes?
"The president is also claiming that there are BILLIONAIRES here in the US that are paying less than 1% in federal taxes."
The president is a liar. Without evidence by a reliable source I'm not about believe the crap that comes out of his mouth.
"But, the stat that takes that cake is that a quarter of the millionaires in the US paid less in taxes than people making less than $100,000."
That's a bit deceptive since they are treating Social Security as a tax. Most of these millionaires are making money from investments, not wages. Since taxes on investments don't include things like SS and medicare it skews the numbers.
Do you think that we should make people pay social security and medicare based on investments? You'd probably say yes, but then you also think we should shaft the people who would pay those taxes since you don't feel they deserve social security.
@Taskr36 (13963)
• United States
9 Dec 11
"Only a republican would IGNORE the 4,000 people that AREN'T paying 35% like we are told by republicans that EVERY wealthy American pays."
If you're going to piss and moan about republicans do it to someone else. I'm not a republican. I also didn't IGNORE anything. If you had half a brain you might have actually read MY FIRST SENTENCE. Since you seem to be off your meds today, I'll show you again.
"Yup, those 4,000 should definitely be paying taxes."
There, hopefully you can read that, if not, you should probably head back to first grade after you leave your anger management class.
Now, what republican said that every single wealthy American pays a 35% tax rate? That may be the average, it may be what most pay, it may be what they pay in INCOME TAX, but anyone with half a brain knows that wealthy people get money from sources besides just wages. Capital gains has a different tax rate which is where Warren Buffet makes his money. If he reported that money as regular wages, he would pay a higher tax rate. If he weren't a blatant hypocrite, he'd pay the taxes he claims that he SHOULD be paying. He might even pay the back taxes that he OWES THE COUNTRY.
Anyone can game the system and not pay a dime. Many people already do. Many people also get caught doing that and go to jail, including millionaires. Warren Buffet might be smart enough to pull it off, but stupid celebrities like Wesley Snipes have tried and failed miserably.
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
9 Dec 11
Only a republican would IGNORE the 4,000 people that AREN'T paying 35% like we are told by republicans that EVERY wealthy American pays. This is PROOF that the 35% tax rate BS from republicans is a LIE!!!
When Warren Buffet, who is a BILLIONAIRE, said that he could game the system and not pay a dime no one questioned that. But, now you are? Where were you when Warren said this?
I actually think that we should eliminate the exemption on Medicare, and Social Security. But, that would put the tax rate for the rich closer to 35%, which would be UNAMERICAN!!!!!
I NEVER said that they don't deserve it, what I said is that they would be better served using that as a tax credit instead of payments. The funny thing is that many agree with me, including REPUBLICANS!!!
@Taskr36 (13963)
• United States
9 Dec 11
Remember what I said about the president being a liar regarding his claim that billionaires are paying less than 1% in taxes? Yeah, so politifact checked that out. There is absolutely no proof, whatsoever, that ANY billionaires are paying less than 1%. Don't let FACT get in the way of your class warfare though.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/dec/08/barack-obama/barack-obama-says-some-billionaires-have-tax-rate-/
@peavey (16936)
• United States
7 Dec 11
No, they don't pay 35%. In some instances they pay 49%. What isn't mentioned is that the top 10% of rich Americans pay 70% of all taxes collected. What Obama wants to do is stop that so he can cripple our government even more than he has.
Of course, this won't apply to him or members of congress, although they're all very rich. They don't play by the same rules.
What happens if he taxes other rich people even more is that he stops them from contributing to the capitalist system. Those people are the ones who hire workers (who need jobs right now, by the way) who build companies (that have been razed and put into government hands now) and make products (that now com from China) that keep our economy going.
I shouldn't have answered this because I'm not going to get into a debate about it, but I had to speak up.
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
8 Dec 11
"No, they don't pay 35%. In some instances they pay 49%."
And some of them pay 1%
"What isn't mentioned is that the top 10% of rich Americans pay 70% of all taxes collected."
That is because the top 10% of Americans make a lot more than the other 90%. What is your point?
I agree with you 100% that congress will NEVER increase their own taxes, if they did, why would find someway to exempt themselves from it.
I have heard this raising taxes will hurt the economy all the time, but the facts don't match the BS. If you look at the Reagan era, and the Clinton era, both raised taxes, and both had enormous growth. Both Bush jr. and Obama have only lowered taxes, and how has that worked for us?
@irisheyes (4370)
• United States
15 Dec 11
Peavey, if they stopped giving big business tax credits for outsourced jobs and only gave them for jobs in the USA, many of those things would not come from China.
@sierras236 (2739)
• United States
8 Dec 11
For the same reason that many corporate businesses like GE don't get taxed on some of their profits. Most of their money is overseas and stays overseas in a lower tax zone. America can't tax overseas money that stays overseas no matter how much President Obama wants to.
Britain tried the whole taxing the "rich" thing. Before you continue on this course, at least wait to see how well it worked for them. Their tax rate is 50% on those who make about $167,000 USD (150,000 BP).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14810323
@sierras236 (2739)
• United States
9 Dec 11
I was also pointing out the fact that the reason that some don't is the same reason that some companies don't. Their money is overseas. If it stays overseas, it can't be taxed at the 35%. Yeah, actually we do get it. There are tax dodgers in every income bracket even the poor.
Check out Germany where people avoid the banks just to avoid paying taxes. They have a major problem over there with delinquent tax bills.
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
10 Dec 11
Sierras, that income would NOT be considered taxable income, thus it wouldn't show up on their tax return. If you have money in foreign countries it isn't considered us income, thus it doesn't count toward your taxable income. It is also VERY illegal to funnel money to foreign countries to escape US taxes. Even Switzerland has stopped this practice, and has agreements with the US to rat out Americans trying to do this.
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
9 Dec 11
I didn't say anything about raising taxes, I just pointed out the LIE that wealthy people in this country pay 35% - 50% in taxes. I have fought with just about every right winger on this site about this, and not one of them understands this. It is pretty sad that even facts can't make you people see the light.
@lampar (7584)
• United States
7 Dec 11
Rich people also pay their tax like the poor people in general, the difference here is that there are many loopholes, provisions, tax break, tax cut and tax credit for the millionaire and billionaire, their accountants can always find a dozen of ways to lower the taxable income of them. That is the reason why they contributed much lower to the overall tax revenue of the government while take up large portion of share in the nation's generated wealth. Poor people don't have accoutant to do their tax and can't find many provision in the tax code to take advantages of congress sworn generosity and admire toward U.S millionaires and billionaires.
@bobmnu (8157)
• United States
8 Dec 11
They are not loopholes the proper term is they are legal deductions and were created by the politicians like President Obama. one such deduction that the rich use is to invest in government bonds and other tax exempt bonds. How about closing the loophole that allows a person to get back more than is with held from their pay. If we are going to go after the rich who don't pay what about the 40 some % of the population that pays no federal income tax?
@Fatcat44 (1141)
• United States
8 Dec 11
So how do they get around this?
Loop holes. The republicans have agreed to tie up the loopholes, but are against raising the tax limits, because the tax level increase will not make them pay anymore if it is a tax loop holes. Gdebater, you are smarter than this! If they pay none now, or a low percent, why would they pay more, if the rate was increased? an increase on 0% is still 0%.
Also, some have their money stashed in tax free bonds, which can pay 8-12% rate of return. All tax free. These are bonds that regular people do not have access to invest in, but the rich can. These bonds are set up to be tax free which includes municipals, cites and other local government which need bonds to operate. They are tax free to help create the want to invest in them. And the ones who usually invest in them are the government people themselves, who have the first opportunity to get into them, and also, there is a minimum level of investment on them. They are also government back in case the bond issuer goes belly up.
The solution is fix tax-loop holes which many congressman help create so they, and their supporters can pay less taxes. Fix the loopholes and lower spending. Let the rich invest their money which create jobs. The rich do not stash the money in bank accounts which pay low interest, they own companies, which hire people. When they make money, they invest it back in companies which "hire people."
If I had a million dollars, I would put in a tax free bonds and make about $100,000 and not have to pay any taxes on it. I would be doing great! I looked at Raum Emanual background which says he is highly invested in tax free bonds. i.e. he pays little taxes on his profits!
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
11 Dec 11
Fat, the only 12% returns on bonds right now are in the EU, and I wouldn't put a dime in an EU bond with YOUR money. I agree that the rich use loop holes that most of us will never see, or have a chance to use. They also have the power to buy our elected officials, yet no one wants to change our election system. Instead of changing how we elect people, we just want to replace the existing people, and bring in new people who will be corrupted by the money as well. I have never understood why people wouldn't want to change a system that is broken.
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
14 Dec 11
It is very easy to fix election system, just give everyone the same amount of money in tax payer dollars, along with tax deductions for TV networks to run commercials. Limited to $5 MILLION per election with NO outside money from ANYONE. Should fix our problems
@Fatcat44 (1141)
• United States
11 Dec 11
So what is you answer for changing how we elect people. There is not, as far as I can tell a system which works better. He who can get the money, generally means the more people support them and donate. How did Obama get a billion dollars for his campaign? Unions and rich people too.
I heard an interesting point in tonight GOP debate. Everytime the government prints money and overspend, it moves money from middle class to the rich. We have to get this congress off from spending and printing money!
@ShepherdSpy (8544)
• Omagh, Northern Ireland
7 Dec 11
The US taxation system is said to be horrendously complex,that a lay taxpayer would be getting nowhere fast trying to understand it. Consequently,Using a Tax Lawyer is the way to go.And the more money you have to employ Lawyers on the subject,the better the information and results you're likely to get...and the more loopholes you're likely to find to wiggle through...
@lampar (7584)
• United States
7 Dec 11
Rich people also pay their tax like the poor people in general, the difference here is that there are many loopholes, provisions, tax break, tax cut and tax credit passed by congress over the years specially for the millionaire and billionaire, their accountants can always find a dozen of ways to lower the taxable income of them. That is the reason why they contributed much lower to the overall tax revenue of the government while take up large portion of share in the nation's generated wealth. Poor people don't have accoutant to do their tax and can't find many provision in the tax code to take advantages of congress sworn generosity and admire toward U.S millionaires and billionaires. Having a fair tax system on every income group is considered as waging a class warfare in the mind of many in congress, making a millionaire become billionaire, and billionaire become a trillionaire is regarded as 'Fairness' to both major political parties.
@Robswife2006 (1208)
• United States
7 Dec 11
My Mom used to have this saying that went like this, "the richer get richer & the poor get poorer." Rich people can either talk or buy their way out of pretty much anything. Or they have their rich lawyers do it for them. Poor people on the other hand can not afford to NOT pay their taxes. If they dare they are almost immediately caught. I have no problem paying taxes. It's the law & I obey the law, but I think that regardless of how much money you make ALL people, whether you are rich or not should be paying their taxes. End of story.
@knoodleknight18 (917)
• United States
19 Dec 11
It really shouldn't be a surprise that there are rich people paying little taxes. Some of the most wealthy corporations tax accountability is pretty questionable. And it's the CEO's of those same companies that make up the rich.
That said, this thread should go to show how overly complicated tax laws are. State, federal, income, capitol gains, government bonds, gifts, investments, taxable interest, down to what type of car you buy, everything is taxed at a different rate. Then you have itemizing and then special deductions, like interest on student loans.
But in reality it basically comes down to this, only income is really taxable. The money the rich already have isn't. Often times neither is the money they are making from having money. Let's say you already have $10 million and you earn no money. Your tax liability is $0. But let's say you invest most of that capitol in a diversified portfolio. Your investment made roughly 10% half of that was tax free, the other half is taxed at a low rate. So 10% of $10 million is $1,000,000. However because this money was returns on bonds, stocks, dividends, etc. You might only be liable for taxes for $250,000 of the $1 million you made. Then you throw in some deductions, jump threw a few loopholes, and the next thing you know, you're only paying taxes on $100,000. Not bad, now imagine people who are collecting interest on billions through a corporation that's giving them all sorts of perks.