What&#39;s your &quot;ideal&quot; writing site?

@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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30 Jan 12

Oh, and a wee P.S. - you can copy/paste those on the forum if you want, they'll encourage other people to join in with ideas and it's not like you're trying to cheat me out of my precious Postloop points or anything!

@bostonphil (4459)

• United States

29 Jan 12

One more on Yahoo Voices. And then I will do a final and fourth response about what I would like to see in the ideal writing site but based on my three other responses. Maybe I should do an article on ideal Writing Site for one of my sites. OK. Yahoo Voices. I HATE the submission process especially when you are requesting upfront payment. And you know what I mean. Before you finally get your article published, it takes a week to two. Way too long! I like the upfront payment when you can get it but I believe that it is based on subjective opinion rather than objective opinion. It needs to be fairer. I like the $1.50 per 1,000 pay per views total. I think that it is fair. I like that assignments are offered. I do not like that the site has no spell check, word count or share button.

2 people like this

Charlene Sally C.

@PointlessQuestions (15397)

• United States

29 Jan 12

$1.50 per 1000 views isn't much. I get $2 per 1000 views with one of the content farms I write for.. I'd want better than I get from the current content farms I write for.

1 person likes this

peavey

@peavey (16936)

• United States

29 Jan 12

I like both revenue share and straight assignments and would rather, for the most part, just pick up assignments and not have to deal with a client each time. I detest rating systems and tests "proving" how good or bad a writer is. The best writer can flub a test and the worst writer can sometimes get by. Nix on slotting writers into specialized subject areas. My special areas are frugal living and personal finance but they get boring sometimes and I'd hate to think I was limited to just those. Ideally, a site would put as much burden on the client as on the writer. I have tried to write for some people who couldn't figure out how to tell me what they wanted. The ideal site would also have a section that operated somewhat like Constant Content, in that work could be uploaded that hadn't been asked for, but clients could browse and buy them if they were interested. Big order, I know, but you asked!

1 person likes this

@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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30 Jan 12

Knew I'd get the complicated stuff from certain people...

Brilliant input, thank you. Responses very quickly: Rating systems, I agree. I much prefer a "yea or nay" system: in or out. I'm sort of working on a middle-ground with the "nays" having an option of being edited, thus employing editors as well: obviously less pay for the writer (since they'd split earnings with the editor) but an opportunity to learn as well as earn. Specialist subjects: I actually meant choosing to say you have them, not pigeon-holing you in them... but I can see how that might happen anyway. Hmm. Thinkie needed. Agreed on clients: that's mediation, in my opinion, because it always happens at the point where pay comes up. Ideally, I'd like to have a job posting filter where assignments get checked for clarity before they go up, to avoid hassle. And an absolute yes on the storefront idea. That was already on the list.

peavey

@peavey (16936)

• United States

30 Jan 12

Sorry, didn't intend to give a complicated answer!

I think having an option of using an editor is good and should give beginners a better chance. As far as specialist subjects go, I don't think it matters whether one narrows one's expertise to a certain area, or whether one merely "suggests" that by listing their expertise, the result would be pretty much the same. But I think you said that.

You've got a good discussion going here, with a lot to sort out. It should make for a good site!

1 person likes this

@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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31 Jan 12

I guess I'm thinking that it doesn't matter too much: if the assignments system is double-blind (i.e. client posts it, people submit - neither talks to the other) then they won't care what your speciality is. Then again, if they can *invite* to an assignment... hmmm. Difficult choice, that one. I think people would put it in their profile anyway, so an actual "list" isn't really needed, perhaps? I'm working on the first stage right now, which will probably be a rev share setup with editing, just to get things started. Assignments and stuff can slot in once the basics are there. One module at a time.

2004cqui

@2004cqui (2812)

• United States

30 Jan 12

If I were to write for someone through a web site I would want to get paid for my work. The ideal site would include every possible tool available to become a better writer. I'd like to be able to pick and choose and yes maybe even pay for others opinion. I'd want to see reviews from people who used these sites. That would be a great web site!

1 person likes this

writing web sites

@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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31 Jan 12

Getting paid is a given.

What do you consider "every possible tool available to become a better writer"? What do you mean by "pick and choose"? As for ratings and reviews, you're talking about getting a quality rating for your writing based on other users - so presumably on revenue share content. That's a really nice idea but can VERY easily be manipulated by unscrupulous individuals, especially if the rating determines pay levels. Perhaps a separate "popularity" rating... that's a nice idea!

2004cqui

@2004cqui (2812)

• United States

31 Jan 12

As in all art forms, the quality and enjoyment of a piece is up to the eye of the beholder! Ratings should only be affected by popularity! I'd love to see a list of sites that help a writer become better at what they do. Again, the popularity of a site that does any kind of training would be up to the number of people who use it! So in the end you can serve up some quality pieces and still not have a still not have a lot of pay coming your way. Writers don't write for a single site, much less for just one medium. Some will even be working on their own book besides using a writing web site!

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2004cqui

@2004cqui (2812)

• United States

2 Feb 12

The ability to access editors is exactly what I mean by tools! There are also sites that help you become a better writer, etc. You can add them as a resource. By pick and choose I mean the writers in your site can choose to go to the editor and websites you list.

1 person likes this

@bostonphil (4459)

• United States

29 Jan 12

Well, you know that I am new to writing sites. You were one of many mylotters who helped me get going. I have tried several sites and at this time, I am choosing to stick with Triond, Helium and Yahoo! Voices. I am not a professional writer and at this point in time, I am satisfied with earning a little extra money. I am not trying to earn a living by writing. So my needs and desires are going to be different than writers who are younger and looking to further a career in writing and make a living doing so. What I am going to do is write what I like about my sites and what I do not like. I am going to do this in several responses as I have a busy day ahead of me and I am someone who enjoys writing for only a short period of time. I am going to begin with Triond. I like that Triond is open to the International Community. I like that it is easy to write for and publish on Triond. I like that you can write about almost anything in the world. I like that Triond has a spell check, plus word count and a share button. What I do not like are the earnings. You know that they are extremely low as well as inconsistent. I also do not like their writer support. I believe that they go through a third party. I had to write support once and was no satisfied with the responses that I got. Now, I need to break for a bit and when I come back will write about Helium

2 people like this

triond

@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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30 Jan 12

"So my needs and desires are going to be different than writers who are younger and looking to further a career in writing and make a living doing so." This is, in fact, my primary audience - the whole idea of the Half-Hogger (the blog and all that) is to cater to people who aren't trying to go full-time and any writing site would do the same. Obviously full-timers would hopefully get as much out of it. International community: absolutely, goes without saying. Spell check, word count and share: nice ideas, will remember those! Low pay is standard on rev share, I'm afraid. The only alternative is direct sales or assignment setups. Support, in my case, would be through me or carefully chosen people. I hate the idea of outsourcing except for dog-work.

@bostonphil (4459)

• United States

29 Jan 12

So now I will write about what I would like in an ideal writing site. This response is a composite of my three other responses to your discussion. I want a site that is user or writer friendly. I want a site that is "uncluttered" and "not too busy". I want it to be easy to navigate. I want a site that is easy to write for and to publish on. I want tools to assist me such as spell check, word count and a share button. I want to know and understand how I earn money. I want earnings to be reasonable and fair. I want upfront payments if possible. I want paid views. I want contests and bonuses. I want a lot of options as to earnings. I would like editing services as well as specialized subject areas. I want good support services. But keep in mind that I am going on 67 years old. My needs and desires are different than someone like yourself. I have said that I am not looking to make a lot of money off of my writing although I would not turn it way. I am not a professional writer and not seeking to be but I would be open to reaching that status. So want I need and want in an ideal writing site is going to be different than yourself and other writers.

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@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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31 Jan 12

Ahhh, I see now. Good point. Hmmm. I wonder how hard spellcheckers and things are to implement... I'll have to look into it. Then again, I'm thinking along the lines of everything going through editors, so that'd sort out a lot of the issues. They'd still be good, though. I appreciate the grass roots perspective (been there, too!) and I think it's a very valid viewpoint. The business perspective is essential to keep the site running, though. The biggest dispute will always be around up-fronts and the like: writers want them because they get PAID; sites struggle with them because they're VERY risky. Without seeing a lot of a person's work up-front, I don't want to lay out money (that could destroy the site if it's overdone) for content that might be crap and not earn anything. Sites like AC and Helium can afford to do it because they have a publishing network in place (they repub, resell and so on) whereas an individual site doesn't. Any idea of what kind of bonuses you're thinking of?

1 person likes this

@bostonphil (4459)

• United States

31 Jan 12

I was thinking of Helium's rating system when I said bonuses. I get three dollars a month for 10 minutes of rating every day. And I enjoy the rating. In my opinion, that is an easy $3.00. I see it as a bonus. How do you see it? By the way, I do have word processing. When I upgraded to Snow Leopard, I got iWorks and Pages is a part of iWorks. Pages is a word processing program. I have never had to use it. I never thought of using it. I really don't know how but I did play around with it a little. I have learned how to type on it and save it. There is hope. However, Yahoo Voices and Triond have their own save. Helium is the only writing site I have joined or explored that does not have a save. Why does Helium not have a save? If you are considering your own writing site, you probably want to consider both the needs and desires of professional or more experienced writers as well as newer and less experienced writers. Most of your responses seem to come from more experienced writers. I am telling you what I feel less experienced writers might need and or want in a writing site.

1 person likes this

@bostonphil (4459)

• United States

31 Jan 12

You assume that I have word processing capabilities. I don't. I own a macbook. When I bought it, it had Tiger operating system. I never purchased IWord which is Apple's word processing program. However a year ago, I upgraded to Snow Leopard because I bought an IPad and needed Snow Leopard to activate and for other purposes. I think that I have gotten a word processing program with it but not certain. I am going to have to look into it more. Unfortunately my computer is now four years old and I am no longer eligible to participate in training at the Apple Store. This is my very first computer. When I bought it, I never expected to need it for word processing. I had no idea what world would open up for me with my computer. My life is so much happier and better. I am happier. Your comments to all my responses have all been interesting because you were coming from a small business owner's perspective. I was coming from a grassroots writers perspective: you might say the employee perspective.

1 person likes this

sylvia13

@sylvia13 (1850)

• Nelson Bay, Australia

30 Jan 12

I found HP (HubPages some four years ago and I still enjoy publishing with them. They are a nice, no-nonsense community that are constantly trying to improve things for their writers and public! They allow one to be creative, while at the same time showing you how to improve the various elements on their site! I am fast approaching my hundredth hub and I am proud to be there!

1 person likes this

@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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30 Jan 12

I like their model, too - always something happening! But then they have 10 million hits a month, so they can afford it. Gotta start simple and build up!

SandrainSpain

@Sandra1952 (6047)

• Spain

29 Jan 12

My ideal site would be something that would look after the interests of everyone equally - writers, site owners and clients. I'd like to see flexibility, and equal opportunities for everyone concerned. Something where there are no lines drawn in the sand, but where we can all work together to help each other and progress the interests of all concerned. The only non-negotiable would be quality - quality of writing, quality of service, quality of clients. When it comes down to it, the ideal site has to provide what the clients and the members want, and top of everybody's wish list is quality.

1 person likes this

@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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30 Jan 12

Actually, top of a lot of clients' wish list is PRICE. I don't like rating systems, to be honest. I much prefer the CC system of "good enough or not" rather than the dubious sliding scale. That said, I don't like cutting out people who have awesome ideas and struggle with the language - that's where my second idea comes in, of having an in-house editing setup as well. They can write, get it edited and posted/submitted to clients and effectively pay the editor, while earning a little less. Quality would be better, the editors get a job as well and the clients are happy. The writers get their edited text back so they can see changes and can improve. In the ideal world, of course.

RebeccaScarlett

@RebeccaScarlett (2532)

• Canada

29 Jan 12

I would like to pick up assignments from clients using the site as a "middleman". I like sites where you bid on work, but there should be enforced minimum prices to avoid underbidding by people who live in countries where 1 US dollar can buy a heck of a lot more than it can in the US, Canada, Australia, etc. There should not be "exams" to prove your proficiency in a certain language, because those are very easy to fake. If you put in your profile that you write in English, then every single English word that goes through the site on your behalf should be graded by an algorithm (messages back and forth between clients, the actual assignments you produce, etc.) There should be a detailed rating system so that reliable clients who write well are able to charge/bid the prices they deserve. When a client has a job delivered, they should be able to "earn back" part of the site's fee if they give a thorough and detailed review. That will motivate people to rate properly and honestly (if you find that a reviewer constantly gives the same mark to everyone, in all categories, they will get less of their fee back for completing reviews). If the site can afford it, their should be professional editors hired to "spot-check" random assignments before they are passed on to the clients, in order to enforce quality control. "Samples" are too easy to fake because they can simply be copy-pasted off of a web site, or the potential writer can turn around and hire a better writer to write his "sample" (that's happened with my work!) I could probably go on and on... but essentially a model where a site takes a percentage fee for being the middleman is a good one, as long as the middleman sets and enforces standards that are in the best interests of writers and clients. Think about it: if cheats and poor writers are weeded out, bigger clients with more money to pay will be attracted to the site.

1 person likes this

@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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30 Jan 12

"there should be enforced minimum prices to avoid underbidding by people who live in countries where 1 US dollar can buy a heck of a lot more than it can in the US, Canada, Australia, etc." That would have two effects: flooding by people from those countries for the relatively awesome prices and fewer clients. There's also the question of equal opportunities: I don't see why someone should be cut out just because they live somewhere cheap. "every single English word that goes through the site on your behalf should be graded by an algorithm" - that's a nice idea, actually. There's a not-insignificant privacy issue, of course, but nothing the TOS couldn't cover. I like the idea of earning back some money for honest reviews... but HOW do you know they're honest? Perhaps every person they've employed really is equally good. As for setting your own rates, that's the toughie. On the one hand it's great: you earn what you think you deserve. On the other hand, EVERYTHING becomes subjective and almost impossible to evaluate: how do I know you're worth $50/hr if unhappy clients say you're not? Since you're asking for spot checks, that has to be possible. Editing is another matter and, as mentioned above, will probably form part of the process via another part of the site. "as long as the middleman sets and enforces standards that are in the best interests of writers and clients" - easy to say, VERY hard to implement, especially without any kind of testing system. Ratings would have to depend on feedback and, as you know, that can easily be faked unless the system is double-blind (i.e. you don't know who you're writing for and they don't know who's writing). Food for thought there, thanks very much!

@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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31 Jan 12

"Please keep in mind that I'm not accusing people from third world countries of being bad writers, or even bad English writers" - I know. I feel the same way... a couple of people on my forum are non-native speakers and I would NEVER have guessed whereas people elsewhere are native speakers and write really badly! I like the idea of targetting high-quality content and I'm not disputing that it's worth more. I'm just saying that it's incredibly hard to gauge quality without ratings. And for bad ratings to accumulate, clients have to get screwed on quality. Or they have to have a whole slew of submissions and pick the best one - and rate them ALL so that the ones who don't get picked don't get down-rated just for not being picked. It's so complicated.

I'm still at a loss for a workaround. Tests don't work (we all know that). Feedback works but only if it's double-blind or people manipulate it (and even then they try). Offering a slew of articles and letting them choose is good but what about those who don't get chosen? This is why I'd like to add the editing stage, where everything goes through editors (another quality question there... aaargh!) who get paid a standard rate as well, to ensure quality levels are maintained. But then there's the question of how to pay them. It's so complicated.

In all honesty, I think that's the only way to go. The editing will cut into writer pay a bit but it's worth it, I think, to ensure happy clients - and the higher quality guarantee should mean better prices so it balances out. The only question is what price level to target - which is a VERY hard question. Thanks for the congrats - I'm very chuffed. A dozen sales already, wheee! And if you're thinking of buying, the Kindle version's cheaper (and there are free readers for laptops/desktops).

RebeccaScarlett

@RebeccaScarlett (2532)

• Canada

31 Jan 12

It's true that nothing is perfect--but you already see flooding from people in third world countries, so I don't think that would be any different. I could be wrong, but I feel like the end result would be better--since there is a minimum (livable wage for people in English speaking countries) price, the clients would be paying a certain amount no matter what. Therefore, they would take the higher quality than the lower, since they will both be at the same price. (People in first world countries really can't afford to bid as low as the bids on freelancer go, but if there were minimums that they could afford, they would bid low to those minimums in order to compete.) Please keep in mind that I'm not accusing people from third world countries of being bad writers, or even bad English writers, but there are many, many people claiming to speak English as well as a native speaker who do not, and they can afford to bid low, which takes work away from real native English speakers (which I'm sure you know!) I'm sure there are many people on these sites who are wonderful, talented writers in their native languages who just haven't mastered English. I checked out your site and joined the forum, by the way. I think it's wonderful and congrats on the book! I may just purchase it if I can justify to my over-guilty mind the expense (we're a little tight right now!)

1 person likes this

inertia4

@inertia4 (27960)

• United States

1 Feb 12

Well, let me start by saying this. If you were to have a writing site I know it would be a wonderful site to be a part of. Now, I think every option you spoke about are very good ones. Maybe instead of just picking one, use them all. Different projects for different compensation. I honestly would not write for a flat fee, as they need to be extremely well written. I am not that good. For me maybe a revenue share would be a better option because I believe that with that kind of compensation the articles or posts do not need to be top notch. So, I think a little off all would be a well round site.

1 person likes this

@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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2 Feb 12

Thank you for the compliment, Inertia. Very kind.

I'm currently trying to take all these disparate ideas - plus all my own - and make them stick together. It's sort of like trying to glue footballs together: they're round and it's not easy but I'm sure I'll find a way! It's interesting that you consider rev share quality lower than direct work: I believe this is true, too... but I don't see why it should be. Quality counts in ANY form, in my opinion. One question for you, if I may: if you had the option of writing for rev share and giving up a percentage of the income in exchange for an editor going through your work and checking, correcting or helping rewrite it better, would you do that or prefer to publish low-quality with full share?

1 person likes this

@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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2 Feb 12

Now all you need are superhero outfits and a theme tune!

1 person likes this

@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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5 Feb 12

So if I get you a Powergirl outfit...? Or maybe one of those football mascot things, like the big Disney animals?

1 person likes this

@bostonphil (4459)

• United States

29 Jan 12

Now I will tell you what I like and do not like about Helium. I hope that you do not mind me doing it this way but each site that I am on has features that i really like and feature that I really do not like. I almost gave up on Helium. Early on, I found it very confusing and complex. I did not understand "writing to a title". Sandra1952, yourself and others helped me understand and once I did understand, I grew to like "writing to a title". I did not find Helium to be user or writer friendly. I like that Helium has instant publishing, just like Triond. I like that Helium offers a $3 a month bonus for rating. I like that Helium offers contests and assignments. I do not like that Helium requires $25 to cash out. I wish the amount could be reduced. I still do not understand how writers earn from articles published. It is vague. I really do not like that I can not save a draft when writing for Helium. If I could, I would write more. I have a small mac and I do not have word. I do not think that I even have IWord so I only write for Helium when I have time to complete and publish the article. Otherwise I would write more for Helium. I do like the site. That takes care of Helium. The next response will be about Yahoo Voices. And then I will do a fourth and final response summing up what I want in an ideal site based on the three sites that I have singled out.

1 person likes this

@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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30 Jan 12

OK, so assignments and competitions (always good). Writing to title is covered by assignments or public requests from potential clients. I think the Helium model works well there: if your assignment work isn't picked, it goes to rev share so you still earn for your efforts. Payouts, I can see your point. That's probably to keep Paypal costs down. Saving drafts, hmmm. I don't see that as the site's responsibility: it's yours to keep the content on your PC until it's ready. Even a text editor like Notepad works. And no problem on replying several times: all useful!

Charlene Sally C.

@PointlessQuestions (15397)

• United States

29 Jan 12

That's what I belong to now, but it is still in its baby stages. We have an algorithm to pay for passive income, but we have to get money into the site before we can share revenue. I'm doing an assignment now that will pay me about $0.03 a word. Ours is a co-op, so a portion of the moneys brought in will stay within the co-op to fund the passive income. Also things like Amazon links where you can go to the site and get to your amazon account from there... Affiliate links... will give the co-op some cash... also selling The Best Spinner at a discount ... another affiliate link...will help generate cash for the site. My ideal writing site is one that will rank high on Alexa, and have PLR (Private Label Rights) to articles we write and go up for sale, and also regular contract work with clients who are willing to pay a comparable rate so the writers can make a living with their trade. The problem with this is that there are so many scab sites that are offering pennies and we are all more than willing to write for them. I still write for the content farms, but I also do a bit of work for our co-op and then rewrite some of those articles for the content farms and link them back to my original article on the co-op.

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@SpikeTheLobster (6403)

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30 Jan 12

Rankings come with time and content, not from the outset, unfortunately.

Yours is actually a writing company in site-form, if you see what I mean. You ARE the company and the site, rather than the site being a middleman between you and the client, so it's a very different setup. And I REALLY need to reply to your message... sorry, m'dear!

Triple0

@Triple0 (1904)

• Australia

30 Jan 12

I'm not a fan of article writing and revenue sharing, I prefer a site that pays straight up for the content you write. I prefer writing sites that are similar to Mylot, I don't mind review sites. I would love to write reviews for almost anything like from music to my pet dog, anything! It's better to open a whole lot of options to make a writing site successful. Rather than just plain writing, there could be a bit of a social network and a forum too. People can make friends, read each others content and comment and rate. I like sites that pay you to do just that, too bad I can't find a site like that yet.

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