Do Not Comply?

At least they won't kill me. And thank God, I don't have kids.

Yea, thats what they said in Germany in the thirties. Are you convinced it would never happen here?

Sounds like you'd have no problem standing up to a law that went against your conscience. Good for you. Now, what if they were going to put you in prison and take away your kids?

What about just not paying the taxes?

That would violate God's law. Pay unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God what is God's. I would love to refuse to pay taxes but with me in federal prison who would take care of my grandchild? There are many people who depend on me and I think I can do more good on the outside. However, I dare not protest at a rally where the speaker is protected by the SS, ya know? Taxes were supposed to be temporary. No collection of money is ever temporary with this dishonorable government.

Yea, I didn't think of that. You'd think I'd remember seeing as our President quoted scripture to get more taxes from the businessmen in our country. You know, the job creators. That is what has been on my mind. Do you disobey and try to take care of family the best you can, or do you not comply and go to prison. I really think that is what we are facing in the near future. And yes, did you know that the income tax ammendment was possibly not ratified legally? Some ex IRS lawyers have tested it, didn't work for them.

Thank you for the references. Appreciate you taking the time to do that for us.

Well, according to my beliefs, the consequenses of disobeying God last a lot longer than disobeying the government, or man's laws. Still, it would be difficult seeing as I have family to think about.

I knew there was a reason I liked you!!! You said that very well.

Force of law, the threat of punishment or fine. That is how government works. People don't realize it, but that is how it is.

Whether the laws of the United States were ever based on Christian principles is a whole other subject. What you seem to be advocating here is an individual determination of what god's laws are.

Christians trust the Bible as their authority. The Jews the Torah. There is no division there, they are the same. Except a Jew may have a problem if asked to bow the knee to Jesus, which I don't think the government will ask him to do. Christian principles and laws based on God's laws ran this country for about two centuries. There was no anarchy.

In fact, we are closer to anarchy now that we've stopped listening to God's laws as the basis for our judicial system.

"who is the ultimate authority?" That is easy in such cases you are. You decide for yourself.

I am not sure I can help you much with that. I have only been in a situation once when I thought I was going to die. What I can tell you it that I did not worry about anything except how I was going to get out of the situation and I did not look to any god to save my life I had to do it myself.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/shadrach_meshac_and_abednego Acts 5:29 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. The verse you are refering to was Jesus telling his disciples to pay the taxes that the occuping Romans levied on them. It was his way of saying that governments has temporal power over us, but God has power over governments. So who is the ultimate authority?

Yea right we are all doomed!

We are discussing whether it would be worth disobeying to a person who believes God is the ultimate authority and will hold us accountable. It is not about punishment of the body, but punishment of the soul, or if you prefer, the conscience of a man and living with himself and his choices.

I'm with Thoreau on this: If your government does or orders something against your conscience, it is your RESPONSIBILITY to disobey. By the same token, if your Church orders you to do something that goes against your conscience, you have an equal responsibility to disobey your church. And how do we justify this? Because the men who run your government and the men who run your church are only men, not the Holy arbiters of what is right and wrong. And I should add, please, nobody bring up the shibboleth of Holy F*cking scripture, which is demonstrably only the insane ramblings of other, potentially totally fallible men. The final arbiter is your own conscience, which may be somewhat anarchic of me but then I come from the arrogant intellectual elite and have total confidence in my ability to judge right and wrong, at least in most circumstances. When I don't consider I know enough to judge, I go looking for those who do, but that won't be either politicians or priests. Even when I was a young and highly committed Christian (I was going to enter an Anglican seminary) I couldn't accept some of the things I was supposed to believe and follow, which is why I not only didn't enter the seminary but eventually became an atheist. And a lifetime of observation and sometimes sufferingbecause of politics and politicians has convinced me that my early decision to eschew voting (it is compulsory in Australia) was absolutely correct - voting only encourages the slimy turds. Lash

I have avoided this issue to date, but I have to say that for me your question poses no dilemma because I simply don't believe that God is the ultimate authority, or any authority at all. J.S Mill once said that you don't have to be stupid to be a conservative, but most conservatives are stupid, and I have tended to apply this to religious believers as well. Clearly some are highly intelligent, and your writing here tells me you are also intelligent, but how intelligent people can believe in the face of the evidence from the history of religion even if not common sense is totally bewildering. The younger me still bewilders me in this respect. Humanity has had Gods for all recorded history, and the archeological record tells us that long before writing we had religion. In that time there have been literally thousands of Gods (and Goddesses), and each culture has believed its God(s) to be the only true God(s). In their various names millions of people have been tortured and slaughtered; I will concede that millions have also received solace from their beliefs. How and what we believe (or don't believe) is purely a product of the time, place, and culture we are born into, although we can individually transcend those factors if we wish. So how do contemporary Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. justify claiming that all those that went before were wrong, and that only today's Christian/Jew/Muslim etc. has it right? And if the claim is made that modern Man is more advanced, I'd have to point out that every development of today's world had it's genesis in the intelligence of forebears going back millennia. Today's engineers are still trying to work out how "primitive" cultures like the Egyptians (who incidentally practised serious surgery) or the early Britons could build edifices like the pyramids or Stonehenge, or how primitive South Sea Islanders could develop navigation systems that work just as well as today's without the sniff of a sextant or a map. We are no more intelligent now than we ever were. In my more sanguine moments I will concede the possibility of Intelligent Design, but to imagine that any such designer bears the slightest resemblance to any of the dieties humanity has created (in its own contemporary image) I find ludicrous. Or the possibility that the designer even recognises our existence any more than we recognise the existence of ants. So no, sorry Debra, I can't come at God as the ultimate authority, which only leaves me to consider what I have to do about political commands. Lash

Not if you believe God DID make laws for man to follow. Like, do no murder, do not steal, do not lie, do not lust after your neighbor's goods or wife. OR the big one, have no other gods before YHWH, The God. And btw, I talk to God everyday. He answers me too. In a still small voice called my conscience. God being the ultimate authority in the universe, and I, being a citizen of that universe, should I put man's laws above the laws of the Creator of the Universe? Even if you truly feel God is a formless mass, which may be; He is an intelligent formless mass and as stated, the ultimate authority.

Today's engineers are still trying to work out how "primitive" cultures like the Egyptians (who incidentally practised serious surgery) or the early Britons could build edifices like the pyramids or Stonehenge. That is not hard to explain.I know an engineer who went to Greece and when he came back he said " People claim the ancient men were advanced builders...well...all they have built was a bunch of ruins ".

That puts the government in the position of deciding what religious beliefs ought to be. And if they can do that, they can decide YOU are wrong, no? My father used to say to us kids, I may not agree with everything you say, but I will die for your right to say it. It applies to beliefs as well as words we speak, I think. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

My faith is not blind. I have and still do think about and investigate the reasons why I believe what I do. What I am seeing is 'secularism' is blindly followed by the majority of Americans and faith in God is dismissed as unecessary. You are correct that in America everyone has the right to follow their conscience. If that means NOT believing in a 'religion' or believing in a religion that is not Christian, they have that right and it is respected by the laws. That is changing.

God's law is what the Bible actually says, not what "Jehovah's Witnesses" twist it to say. Governments cannot be under a moral obligation to tolerate the actions of everyone who is sincerely wrong, however sincerely they may be so. What they may tolerate is a matter for discussion.

Governments are suppose to protect the rights of man. Often times, they don't. Often times their only goal is power.

I agree with you

Let me ask, knowing the Philippines is a mostly Catholic country, if your president demanded the Catholic church give out free birth control and the morning after pill (an abortion pill) to those who worked for the church, would you think that was wrong and would the church comply with government wishes or refuse?

What did GMA order her cabinet members to do that is against God's law, factorial? @debrakcary: The church is the first one to go against such a law before it can be passed down. The president is not there to be a dictator so even he/she has to pass laws under the legislature unless if the President declares Martial Law under emergency--which he/she has no reason to do if what he/she wants is only to pass birth control kits. The Churchs in the Philippines are so traditional that they would stick to the religious law as much as they can. Most Churches do not believe in the separation of Church and Estate so most of the issues in politics they even take as a responsibility that's why it's hard to pass a certain law here in the Philippines that can benefit us in a long term because people here don't want to take risks.

Unless a law is in the Scripture, or commanded by parents/secular authorities and not against Scripture, it is not God's law.

Its not me I worry about, it's my kids. I know God can do miracles for them. I need more faith, I guess. I believe in the truth. I want to do the right thing, just being brutally honest here, when I really think about it, I'm afraid.

why not,

Hi Dawnald, I'm good. Working part time weekends while finishing school. How are YOU? I hope you and the kids are doing well. Is life settling down a bit now for you? Did you find a house? As to the discussion, it is very difficult. Not to mention the social implications when people believe you to be a law breaker or worse. I believe we will be seeing some arrests or huge fines in the years to come in our country due to Obamacare.

I have, that is what has inspired me to post this discussion.

yeah, she's pretty awesome.

The Bible says render unto ceasar what is ceasar's and unto God, what is God's. But if we are true followers of God, we belong to Him fully, don't you think? I'm thinking of the Catholic's problem about the free birth control. Do they cave in and obey the law, or do they stand their ground and pay the huge fines, that will not go away?

Could us modern folks do as they did? And would God honor our obedience with an angel if we did?

Another great response, there are many who would choose to follow God. I am encouraged.