Women for Men
By grandpa_lash
@grandpa_lash (5225)
Australia
August 23, 2012 7:33pm CST
I'm nearly 70, so I was brought up at a time when men were men and women had to put up with it. I was in my 20s when the Western feminist movement began hitting its modern straps, and although some elements of that movement went right over the top (and made it exceptionally difficult for the moderate majority of feminists to be heard), I found, and still find, their arguments compelling. A traitor to my gender, I've been told. I won't even go near the position of women in non-Western countries, that's an entirely more disturbing subject.
Another 50 years of life has simply reinforced my early perceptions, and although I am aware there are many who would argue the point, I believe that the logic, the facts, and the history of the gender war are irrefutable. Although there have been some cosmetic changes, there are very few substantive changes to society's views on the place of women.
In men this is, to some extent, explicable. Quite apart from the weight of social conditioning, it seems obvious that a large number of men are still mysogynists. Mysogyny bewilders me, but to each his own.
What I find totally inexplicable, however, is the number of women who support the status quo and remain hostile to the feminist argument. This has puzzled me for years. Considering that women slightly outnumber men in most Western countries, it seems extraordinary that they haven't taken more political power and changed the situation substantively. It is this female support of the male/mysogynist view that is the obvious culprit in that respect.
While I must concede that there are probably some liberal/left women who fall into this category, it seems equally incontrovertible that the vast majority of women who support male views are of the conservative/reactionary/religious Right persuasion. I don't understand that approach to life any better than I understand mysogyny, but it all seems to be of a piece: it is characterological. That is, those men who are mysogynist or paternalistic managers and those women who support them do so because it is hard-wired into their beings from birth to gravitate to such stances, just as I am inherently driven to seek the opposite viewpoint. I believe the facts support me, but then I'm sure the others do too, and our differing interpretations of the facts make the argument unwinnable.
I'm equally sure that many people, probably mostly from that same cohort, will scoff at the idea of inherent character or its effect on ideology and belief systems, but again, I have spent a good part of the last 50 years studying the subject and I'm totally unlikely to be swayed at this late date.
What I am interested in in this discussion is hearing what the women who support the male dominance approach see as the driving force in their support. Why do they interpret the facts so differently to the feminists and the men who support feminism?
I have absolutely no interest in arguing the pros and cons of feminism here, and won't respond to those who wish to do so.
Lash
6 people like this
8 responses
@celticeagle (166718)
• Boise, Idaho
24 Aug 12
I think that this vast majority of women that you speak of that are conservative and still supporting mens views are not thinking straight. I think they think they are genius in playing this game and that it will serve them well in the long run. How wrong can they be?!! And talk about hard wired. I think that is where alot of the problem may lie. Our mothers hard wired that into us from an early age. Belief systems come from our experiences and if we experience our mothers being this type of woman then we take that on to some great degree. I think it will be afew more generations before women really take a chunk of their own and step out of the ediology that has been there for so long. The Victorian Age is not really that long ago.
2 people like this
@grandpa_lash (5225)
• Australia
24 Aug 12
Indeed, belief systems do come from experience, but how we react to that expeirence makes all the difference. I was brought up as a conservative male, and my mother would have been one of those I am talking about here. I went to a privileged school where male attitudes to women were almost caricatures of the male dominant position.
So how did I come to change? My character, or personality type (Jung) is the Idealist (NF) and I have a highly developed sense of justice, and I emphasise the term "sense". It is not a learned thing, it is innate. Oh of course you can learn to honour the principle of justice, but for people with my typology it is innately felt. It was that sense of justice which was activated over the unequal pay business, and once I saw that I started looking at the rest of the feminist argument, and it was so logical and incontrovertible for someone of my type that I never looked back
I suspect mysogyny, like racism and a whole lot of other isms, is also characterological, and if you are brought up in an environment that shares your natural direction you can become very set very early. If you don't fit your environmnet, as I didn't, then after a period of confusion and inconsistency you may well find your way to being your own person.
Lash
3 people like this
@celticeagle (166718)
• Boise, Idaho
24 Aug 12
I feel that I have a very highly developed sense of justice too. Innate also. It is people like yourself that could bring about change. How? By doing just what you are doing. Passing the word along. The slow ripple effect does do the job just at a slower pace. I agree that the environment we are brought up does have alot to do with who we become but it is changeable if we have the knowledge and the where with all to do it. Bringing about change comes from a passion to see change happen. And I believe that starting in our own little corner of the world is a good way to bring about change. Slowly building to a crescendo that will work for all women all over the world.
1 person likes this
@GreenMoo (11834)
•
25 Aug 12
I think there are less women supporting the status quo, and rather more who just can´t be bothered to try and change it. Trying to change things requires effort and so many people, both male and female, are just too damned lazy to stand up for what they think. In fact, I´d go so far as to say that many people are too lazy to think in the first place.
1 person likes this
@grandpa_lash (5225)
• Australia
26 Aug 12
Yep, apathy is probably the biggest negative factor in the whole social/political arena. Theoretically, there are enough moderates on both sides of politics to bring about realistic change, but they won't get off their arses.
Lash
@grandpa_lash (5225)
• Australia
31 Aug 12
Marx referred to the apathetic and unintelligent as the lumpenproletariat, an evocative term in German, is it not? At times I think they make a good case for limited franchise.
Lash
1 person likes this
@sarahruthbeth22 (43143)
• United States
25 Aug 12
Misogyny makes perfect sense to me if you were growing up in the 70's and in America and had access to a t.v. Every other commercial showed a husband who was stupid and to a guy I can see where he would get the idea when you marry you will always be wrong! Plus if you grow up with a divorced parents didn't help either. These are guesses. Why do I see that there are things men can do better than women and the visa versa? Because it is true. Plus I never thought Just because a guy was a guy he somehow was suppose to be the enemy. To me that was what I learned from hearing Feminists when I grew up.I always liked boys more than girls as friends and I still do. I am old fashioned Only with marriage. I mean once you say I do , the husband Owns you. You can Never do what you want ever again. That is why at age 13 I decided never to marry. I see abortion as a great idea so a guy does not Have to marry a woman he doesn't want to or support an unwanted child. Plus if everything were to be equal , women would give away too much power. A woman can still get something from her husband or someone else!
1 person likes this
@sarahruthbeth22 (43143)
• United States
25 Aug 12
I have some religious structure but not too much. See I was born thinking for myself. My mom told me as a baby I was stubborn so after all this time , nothing has changed.
2 people like this
@grandpa_lash (5225)
• Australia
25 Aug 12
I think the first recorded instance of misogyny was the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh, about 7000 BCE. It has never looked back. It has always seemed to me that if a woman wants to avoid losing power she should, as you have done, stay well clear of any religious structure, since all of them appear to have been created by misogynists.
Lash
2 people like this
@vandana7 (100242)
• India
24 Aug 12
For starters, feminist movement has made Lady Godiva act seem useless in modern times..
Seriously, issues are so deeply embedded that they cant be changed overnight like bedsheets on bed. Implications need to be understood, and we may seem conservative at times but it is not conservativeness, it is pragmatism. Take for example, we had a case of molestation of a minor girl in the north eastern province a couple of months ago.
Feminist were yelling, a) Why cant the girl go to a pub late in the night?
b) Why cant a girl wear jeans and T shirt?
My response would be..a) The girl is a minor and should not be allowed to drink so pub is out of limits, 2) Time matters..if she wore it to her college, or went to her friends during day time, it would be no big deal.
We have such a large population, and limited police force. Monitoring activities in different parts of the city and country is difficult proposition. There are many unsolved cases. We dont want to be reducing ourselves to that!!! We can fight for wearing clothes and going to pubs may be, but why aren't we fighting for taking responsibilities of our parents? Traditionally, parents continue to be the responsibility of men, and that is not changing because feminists dont want the "burden" transferred. That is shrewd, especially considering that it can reduce mother in law and daughter in law bickerings..dont you think? Men also resent women out here because women are competitors for their jobs. Effectively, women prevent them from getting jobs and do their duties. So subconscious dislike for women is brewing. I know my colleagues were not happy that their parents had given hefty dowries to get their daughters married. There were debts, and brothers had to clear those. I think to an extent, what is feminism as of now in my country, is lopsidied. So we need to consider it case by case. As of now, we dont have required wherewithall to fight boors late in the night ..so I do think the girl should have stayed home, and more..her parents should have kept the child at home.
1 person likes this
@vandana7 (100242)
• India
24 Aug 12
In our parts of the world women want to earn, but that money should not go into running the home..it should go into clothes and jewelry and savings and home..if you get what I mean. They want to use men's earnings to run home, and go so far as denying elderly proper maintenance. It is disgusting when you hear of such cases.
@thesids (22180)
• Bhubaneswar, India
24 Aug 12
Hi grandpa
Well, I am neither one from where the Women's Lib originated nor am I a woman myself. So my response might not be of much use here. Still, I do belong to a country where there is a saying - "Women are their worst enemies" - going by the cases of dowry deaths, bride tortures, even the infanticide of girl child - there are many instances that prove the saying to be true.
I believe this is so because many women are jealous, weak because of financial dependence, social norms and also insecure because of these weaknesses. The women who dare to break the boundaries and become more secure are stronger.
1 person likes this
@grandpa_lash (5225)
• Australia
24 Aug 12
I'm a little at a loss to see how things like dowry deaths, bride tortures, honour rapes, infanticide of girls and so forth fit with the saying you used. They seem, in fact, to be the complete antithesis of that saying. Women don't do these things to themselves, men do, and to a large extent, as anthropology shows us, your culture has, in the past, tacitly condoned it. However, I am aware that often women support their men in these practices, as many African women support Female Genital Mutilation, which brings us back to my question, why?
I know that there have been changes over the last few decades, but still. And the weaknesses may be to some extent their own, but then many men also have similar weaknesses, but it is that male centred culture which either creates or exacerbates them. Most people have difficulty in resisting their cultural conditioning, so I suppose that must be a large part of the answer, but surely that can't be all there is.
Western culture is far freer, as I'm sure you will agree. A lot of people think that this freedom is often overdone, but it does mean that a large proportion of Western men are prepared to support their women in seeking equality, and hopefully more and more men will do so in other cultures as time goes by. It may be much more understandable in countries which have not yet been fully Westernised (which, of course, has a number of negative aspects as well as some positive ones), but I can't see how social conditioning in the much freer West can have the same power. It is far easier in the West for women to break the boundaries, so why do so many not do so?
Lash
1 person likes this
@thesids (22180)
• Bhubaneswar, India
24 Aug 12
Well, as an outsider, I too would never have agreed how the ill-things I mention relate to women as the starters. But stats of cases solved by cops reveal that most of the dowry deaths and bride burnings are the brainchilds of some women folk in the in-laws house of the bride. Also, I do not understand that if women folk were more united, the Bride torture or even bride burnings would not have been much rampant - as at least every household has one woman already - and if these were united, they would have been heard - as again, in Indian society it is the women folk who are supposed to be the cooks, the ones who bind the family.
I did not mention the eve teasing or even the rapes as these are not women supported and it is the males who are often always responsible. Even the honor killings are male oriented as again when it comes to society, such societies where these killings happen are male dominated.
I do agree that west is more free a society and this freedom is seeping into many households for good in India though many so-called modern males still want dowry or a well off and paying wife but I am sure these things would wither out from our society soon.
I can relate with our breaking free and your query - "So why do so many not do so" - maybe somewhere they know or are brought up with a submissive mindset or even because of the psychological factors - women many a times are like creepers who need males or support to be complete. We still have a long way to go - but still I think this question would be best answered by women folk only.
1 person likes this
@polaroidsredwine (509)
• United States
24 Aug 12
Aside from some of the reasons listed before me, I think part of it is just due to blindness to the matter. Some women simply block out the inequalities and problems, place blame on their fellow women for not fighting back harder if it's so bad and unfair. Indeed it can be a learned behavior, the only thing they know, and they just don't care to step out of that familiar zone. Some probably don't even care, seeing no reason to change the way things are as they stand.
1 person likes this
@sharra1 (6340)
• Australia
12 Sep 12
In a society where women are totally dependent on men for survival they will side with the men to protect themselves and they will punish any woman who they think is threatening their place and security. In our society this was the case for centuries and it is puyshed by religion which tries to keep women in an inferior place. Feminism helped to free women from this but the move to no longer accept an inferior place started with the help of men who loved their wives and daughters. The problem with feminism is that it did not seem to separate misogynist men from men who thought differently. Since they saw all men as misogynists they fought all men.
The problem is compounded by religion. For a woman to follow the religion she is brought up in she must accept her place as an inferior being. This is the main reason why I cannot accept any religion today. I was brought up by a traditional mother in a traditional family but I never accepted that I was inferior by birth. My mother was brought up traditional and that coloured her thinking but I do not think she was ever happy being traditional. She read Greer and became a feminist and ended up being a man hater. She was not always like this but experiences can colour a person's world view and she saw too many women damaged by men and she saw men as all the same. She never discovered that not all men are misogynists. Her second son has become one but I have no idea if he was born that way or if her man hating affected him in some way.
People long for security and the only way a woman can have security without working or being born rich is to marry a man and live in a traditional lifestyle. In doing so she is fulfilling the model female role that the religion pushes. Women who crave this tradition will hit out at anyone they see as a threat to it. so women hate other women. There was a women recently who trashed feminists and boasted that she was a trophy wife and proud of it. I feel sorry for her that her only desire is to emulate an object like a trophy but it is her choice. What does bother me is her attack on feminism and her comments that women should be like her.
I find myself to be sexually submissive, it is simply my nature, but I regard myself as equally human and not the least bit inferior. I believe myself to be a strong person who has always stood up for people who were being discriminated against but there are some people who are terrified of losing the position in society they have always had. I think it is centuries of brainwashing that leaves them unable to break away and they lash out at anyone who tries to because they see them as threats to their own security.
@grandpa_lash (5225)
• Australia
14 Sep 12
I suppose the figures support your argument, but I've always thought it was a bit condescending to suggest that women are so easily directed, that they don't have a mind of their own to make their own decisions on things like political and religious ideology. I return to my characterological theory, they accept this direction because it fits with their innate characters.
Lash
