What is Fair and Fair Share?
By bobmnu
@bobmnu (8157)
United States
October 7, 2012 12:24am CST
In his closing statement President Obama made the comment:
"All those things are designed to make sure that the American people, their genius, their grit, their determination, is -- is channeled and -- and they have an opportunity to succeed. And everybody's getting a fair shot. And everybody's getting a fair share,"
Obama said, before quickly correcting himself and adding. "[E]verybody's doing a fair share, and everybody's playing by the same rules,"
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-everybodys-getting-fair-share_653590.html
This statement seems to go against everything President Obama is talking about. He wants everyone to "Play by the same rules" yet he favors:
1. The rich paying a different rate in taxes.
2. He favors affirmative action giving some people special treatment.
3. He wants everyone to have the same Health Insurance EXCEPT His Union friends, government employees and elected officals.
4. If you are an illegal you get special treatment.
He wants "[E]verybody's doing a fair share, Yet he has:
1. All but eliminated the work requirement for Welfare.
2. Wants to forgive part of the principal for people who borrowed more than they could afford.
What does he mean by: "everybody's getting a fair share" ?
2 people like this
7 responses
@crossbones27 (49703)
• Mojave, California
7 Oct 12
I guess we will never know since people just do not believe in being fair. That being said even Romney uses the word fair in his tax plan. “Tax: Fairer, Flatter, and Simpler." Don't believe it much, but it sounds good.
So what's fair to you Bob? Then maybe we could get some where.
1 person likes this
@matersfish (6306)
• United States
7 Oct 12
I don't believe it either. But what I do believe is that Romney is more likely to cut spending than to expect any American to keep contributing more via the money they earn. With Obama, he's more likely to increase spending while expecting well-off Americans to pick up his tab.
All the other BS that comes with both these guys is just BS. That one issue is more than enough for me.
And I perfectly understand that many people believe government should be spending way more and taxing way more to pay for it while taking control over big earners and big-earning industry. I just wish those socialistesque-leaning people would be up front about it instead of hiding behind faux projections to hit a pinata.
1 person likes this
@crossbones27 (49703)
• Mojave, California
8 Oct 12
I hear what you are saying but I wish people would really pay attention, Obama has the smallest spending budget increase in nearly 60 years. Most things adding to the debt now are from the previous administration. That's is not me just trying to place the blame on the previous administration, it is just me trying to tell it like it is. Now you can say that is because the GOP controls the house and that is why Obama's spending is curtailed which may or may not be true. You can also say that Obama could of over turned a lot of what the previous administration failed to pay for. You might have an argument there. My point is many people are just manipulating the facts.
I think the big problem here is that so many people muddy the waters so much that people can't see what each side is really doing. Its kind of hard to fix problems if we can't even find them.
Most of the the things like the bail outs and stuff Obama was spending on to stop the country from going over the cliff has been paid back already.
That is why you have to listen to what each persons plan is and not terms like "socialist" and what ever other things these people like to throw out. Plain and simply does the plan make sense. It does not matter if it is part socialist or not, is it a common sense approach? Do the numbers add up? IF they do not, does the other side have a better plan? If they do not, then that side needs to come up with one, or shut the hell up. Instead, if they do not have a better plan, they lie about the other side, and make up how good their plan is. This is why we can't fix the budget right now.
@cripfemme (7698)
• United States
7 Oct 12
1. The rich can afford to contribute more to the nation as I whole then I can, because they have at least $250,000 in income and I only have $10,200. If the situation were reversed I'd be happy to pay more because it's what America needs. 2. Affirmative action deals with racism, which is still a real thing and trying to undo the history of that. 3. Under the Affordable Care Act/Obamacare people can't be kicked off insurance because they have a pre-existing condition and also insurers must accept everyone. This is a great advantage to me, as I have such a condition and many insurers refuse me. Also you can keep kids on insurance until they are 26 and get a rebate if your company doesn't spend more than half your premium on care. Also, their are no more lifetime limits on expenses, like wheelchairs, surgeries, treatments. These are all good things in my opinion and I have researched this law exhaustively.
@cripfemme (7698)
• United States
7 Oct 12
For your information, I own a small company that self-publishes my own poetry. I also work freelance as a columnist. I'm self-employed. Every book I publish donates 10% to various non-profits. No one makes me give away these earnings, but I do, because it just seems like the right thing to do. And, yes, I am currently debt from all my self-employment endeavors. I'm currently over $1,140 debt. I stand by my statement as to what I would do in this case.
@Taskr36 (13963)
• United States
7 Oct 12
"If the situation were reversed I'd be happy to pay more because it's what America needs."
That's just a load of crap that people say because the situation is NOT reversed. If you worked 80 hours a week to build a successful business, taking a loss for years and digging yourself into debt you wouldn't be so eager to pay extra taxes just because your hard work and dangerous risk paid off. Of course you haven't done any of that, so it's harder for you to imagine. You just imagine getting $250,000 doing exactly what you do right now and it's easy to imagine giving away money that you didn't work for. That's why lottery winners almost never complain about the exorbitant taxes taken from their winnings, they didn't earn it.
@oneidmnster (1384)
• United States
8 Oct 12
Well,Crip,that is your decision and your decision only. We should not have the government telling us what to do with our hard earned money.
@oneidmnster (1384)
• United States
8 Oct 12
Mitt Romney has shown how much money he donates to charity. When are the Obama's going to do the same?
Obama wants to take my money and give it to people who don't want to work or have made bad life choices. I owe doctors and hospitals a lot of money that I can't repay. But Obama wants me to help people that don't care about themselves let alone me. If Obama really cared about the unemployed or on welfare he would deport all illegals. Then people would have no excuse to complain about no jobs. Would it solve all our problems? No,but it would help a great deal.
@bobmnu (8157)
• United States
8 Oct 12
You have a great point. Which groups have the highest unemployment and is hurt most by the immigration policies of the President:
The Youth, The Blacks and the Hispanics (legal).
These are the people who will be competing with these three groups to get the few jobs available and they are supporting him????
I hope they wake up and realize that being fair to one group means you are being unfair to another group. What you need is someone who will see everyone as Americans and work to improve their lives not the life of Black American, Young Americans, or Hispanic Americans but of all Americans.
I am getting tired of hearing how this group or that group deserves special treatment and if we don't give it to them we are evil people.
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
8 Oct 12
I agree with Obama, and so do the majority of the American people. The United States is the greatest country in the world, and if you don't think so look at the line of people waiting to get in. One of the reason this country is so great is because of the equal opportunity that all American have to succeed. Now, some people have advantages over others (like Mitt Romney's comment about borrowing money from family members to start a company, most Americans don't have wealthy relatives, unlike Romney), but we all choose to follow the herd, or set our own paths.
His "same rules" comments are something that all of us know are not common today. Our small businesses are facing competition from large corporations who build locations where they pay the least amount in operating cost. The corporations are fighting to make the playing field less "fair" and tilted in their favor. Manufacturers have a larger problems such as competition from markets that don't have to pay for health care, and are subsidized by their home governments (see Honda, and Toyota).
Obama to his credit has tried to even the playing field when he went after Chinese tires. But, that is only one of billions of items that need to be addressed.
Let me take your points one at a time:
1. Our tax system, and Mitt Romney favors the rich paying a different tax rate.
2. Affirmative action given the country great leaders who may have not had this opportunity in the past.
3. He actually wants COMPETITION in health care. Under Obamacare, I can keep my company based insurance, or buy it from my state. But it is MY choice, not my employer who may be charging me more to cover the expense of other employees.
4. How are illegals treated any differently than most of our families that came to this country? Most didn't have to apply of anything, they just came here on a boat.
I personally think he means that everyone should have a "fair share" at the American dream. It is your own personal choice if you want to be wealthy in this country, or just be a bum. But, it is your choice, and Obama wants to make sure that everyone has that fair choice. But, it is getting harder to, when you look at college cost going through the roof, and republicans talking about raising interest rates on student loans. This will only create class warefare with the wealth Americans sending their kids to college, and the rest won't be able to afford it. Is that fair?
@matersfish (6306)
• United States
7 Oct 12
I watched the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary Broke last night, and it had a huge group of athletes talking about what they make. Since there's a huge problem of athletes going broke (at least per public perception of "millions"), a lot of these athletes were explaining tax brackets.
Guys like Sean Salisbury, Leon Searcy and Keith McCants made it very clear that big earners are in that top tax bracket, and receiving $1 million on the contract only gives you $600k after the tax man cometh. And then you get agents, insurance, players' association, and a slew of other fees. So a million on paper isn't anywhere close to a million in the pocket.
Translating this to small and mid-sized businesses, where there are even more expenses paid out per dollar earned, such as payroll and rent and utilities and multiple types of insurance, I don't think the average individual understands just how much is spent to keep a business afloat.
When this "fair share" line starts to get thrown around, it's never accompanied by any realistic numbers. And the fact that Obama's playing favorites just makes it all seem that much shadier.
Nobody's playing by the same rules in America. And I don't believe that to be anyone's fault. It's just that you can't set up a one-size-fits-all system, at least the way our tax code is currently structured. But our President does exacerbate the problem instead of fixing it with his leanings, while seeming to want everyone else to make up the difference.
If only that, it'd be enough for me to balk at the idea of having him as President.
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
8 Oct 12
Sounds like these players need Mitt Romney's tax professionals!!!!
But, the facts are the facts. People with large amounts of money can avoid taxes, while others can't afford high priced accountants, and tax attorneys.
I deal with small business owners every day, and I can tell you that they do spend a lot of money on business cost. But, you would be surprised to hear that the ones I talk to are more upset with the tax breaks that their larger corporate competition gets that they can't. This is what creates an unfair playing field, and destroys our "free market" system.
"When this "fair share" line starts to get thrown around, it's never accompanied by any realistic numbers. And the fact that Obama's playing favorites just makes it all seem that much shadier."
Our tax system plays favorites, and has for decades. Look at corporations paying little to nothing in taxes, or getting tax breaks from cities and states that small business don't. Is that fair? How does a small mom and pop business compete with Wal Mart? They pay a fraction (if any at all) of the taxes, they have lawyers to fight regulations, and can threaten small communities if they increase their taxes. Not to mention Wal Mart owning factories in China that produce products that they purchase here in the USA.
"And I don't believe that to be anyone's fault."
It is our systems fault, and the way we elected officials. We have created a system of legal bribery what hurts everyone except the ones getting all of the money. The fault lies at the capital house in Washington, and every state in the union. Our elected officials need money to run for office, and they know that the only place to get that money comes with a price tag.
"But our President does exacerbate the problem instead of fixing it with his leanings, while seeming to want everyone else to make up the difference."
If Romney is elected he will lean to one side as well, and that will be the side that got this country in the mess we were in before Obama was elected. Do you honestly think that Romney will, or CAN fix a system that is so corrupt? Washington is a multi BILLION dollar corruption ring, with very powerful people pulling the strings, and being compensated well. If you think Romney is going to be able to change the system you are foolish!!!!!
@thegreatdebater (7316)
• United States
9 Oct 12
Maters, you have NEVER heard anyone complain about GE paying NOTHING in taxes? When that came out, I had a lot of customers complain about that.
The small business owners I talk to are in the trucking, and energy business. They are realist, they understand fuel cost, they understand taxes, they understand regulations, and they the economy. What they don't understand is why they are competing with companies that don't have to worry about all of these things because they own a few senators!!!!
You claim that the reason we don't make things here is because of unions, yet there are many factories that I call on that are NOT unionized, and they make great products. Now, they don't have to compete as much with foreign corporations, which many other do. When ever I get this we can't manufacture in the us BS, I point out to this one fact: GM pays over $1 BILLION a year in health care. Toyota and Honda only pay health care for their small number of employees in the US. Toyota and Honda receive over $1 BILLION EVERY YEAR from the government of Japan. Is that "FAIR TRADE"!!!!!
@matersfish (6306)
• United States
8 Oct 12
LOL @ quoting me before it, after it, but then ignoring "It's just that you can't set up a one-size-fits-all system, at least the way our tax code is currently structured."
I've never in my entire life heard from a small business owner that their grievance in the world is that wealthier people aren't paying more taxes. Never once have I heard that.
I've heard griping about fuel costs being far too high. I've heard fussing about electricity and other utility bills going through the roof. I've heard b1tching about insurance rates skyrocketing across the board. I've heard grumbles about the stagnant economy and fewer customers and the clusterphuck created when good, smart businesspeople have no choice but to raise rates to make up the difference. I've heard complaints about not having enough money to hire the best help and having to pay know-nothings too much since they literally know nothing about the business.
I'm not saying they're not out there; I'm sure they are. But I've never encountered anyone in business whose beef is with rich people not paying this magic "fair share" phrase.
Businesspeople I know are independent and just want to do business. They don't want to pay higher taxes -- nor higher costs for food, fuel, energy, etc. They don't want more regulations from more government. They just want government off their backs. They don't want to have to keep getting new licenses and permits and having to cut through more red tape every time they need something done. They're sick of going to the government to beg for the opportunity to simply keep their doors open because something their business does might go against regulation #291 on page 3,501 of this year's new-rules encyclopedia.
If I hear owners of little stores fussing about the Wal-Marts of the world, it usually has nothing at all to do with the taxes and more about the fact that they can sell far more for far less money. But when you cut through that nonsense, it's American unions that demand exceedingly high wages that keeps us from mass-producing items Americans can afford.
Nah. I must not know the same type of businesspeople as you, because wealthy people paying more of their money in to the government is something I've never heard from any of them.
@debrakcarey (19887)
• United States
8 Oct 12
http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2012/02/22/the_fairness_fraud/page/full/
To ask whether life is fair -- either here and now, or at any time or place around the world, over the past several thousand years -- is to ask a question whose answer is obvious. Life has seldom been within shouting distance of fair, in the sense of even approximately equal prospects of success.
Life is NOT fair. Spoiled children think it should be, adults know it is not.