Do you think colleges should be sued?
By AidaLily
@AidaLily (1450)
United States
February 14, 2013 10:12pm CST
In a conversation earlier with a friend who goes to college in Arkansas, she believes that colleges should be sued and held responsible for outrageous student loan debt in the U.S.
Her reasons are that these schools already know the true job prospects or have an idea based on the previous year's graduates how marketable their degrees are. She feels that schools should have someone in their offices to look up the job outlook, explain it to a student, and then refuse to allow a student to attend a non-profitable program unless they pay for more than half of the program themselves.
Basically, if you want to major in "Art" then you would have to pay half the tuition or more for your "Art" course plus all books and fees.
She also believes that colleges should have a limit on how many people they accept in a certain program at a time since college advertisements over saturate the market as she put it.
These colleges would be allowed to accept only so many students for a program nationwide for at least two years. As she clarified it for me, if you want to go to college for, let's say, criminal justice (her major) then you should only be able to get into the programs every 2-4 years rather than large numbers of students being accepted every year so that large numbers of graduates in one field aren't stuck wondering what they are going to do.
She feels that student loans can help students in careers that have a chance of paying them back in and that the last two to three months of every program the students should have to "work". Whether it is an actual externship or an acceptable class in which the students are placed in a setting of their career choice. Therefore they are exposed to what their careers are like rather than just having a degree that says they can do this and that. Lastly, she believes trade schools that help in the over saturation of the job market should no longer be able to get student loans because she believes they hurt the economy with what they do.
To her, the colleges are more at fault because they do not full explain things to their students. She means fully explain them. They speak to high school students they accept whose families are so happy their kids are accepted into college. They speak to people desperate for work or a change in career. They speak to people who aren't going to read the fine print. They aren't going to tell students that they can send the extra money back or they mention it before mentioning how much of a stipend they can get back.
Personally, I do think colleges are at fault for allowing students into their schools for these degrees and lending students loans from them to help them. I do agree that student loans can help as long as things are fully explained to the student instead of the simple "fill out this form and then you'll have to sign this and just sign this and then you will be good to go." I know not many people actually read everything in their promissory notes and the like because there is just so much information there.
Unlike her though... I do not think colleges should be sued for it. While I fully believe they should be more open and realistic about job expectations (yes some colleges still say you can get xx degree and make 30-40k a year to start), and they should come up with a way so students know what to expect. I think rather than college sponsored loans, they should open up other work-study even if the work study means getting what would have been a loan for such jobs as cleaning up a cafeteria or working in it. I think colleges should be made to come up with a way to solve the problem instead of just accepting students without explaining the problems with them.
What do you think fellow mylotters? Do you think colleges should be sued or forced to change the way they do things? Or do you think that it is just the student's fault or their family's fault for not understanding everything?
3 people like this
5 responses
@scorpiobabes (7225)
• United States
15 Feb 13
I agree with certain points brought up by both of you. But to sue a college over such issues is frivolous and a waste of time and money IMHO. Parents should be the ones to educate their children about the ins and outs of the costs of attending college. But the student has to decide if they are willing to take the responsibility of paying back the loans too. Financial aid is quite complicated, and really should be simplified.
Both of my parents were college educated. My father started at Trenton State, but dropped out after a semester. He worked for a time, but went back to Temple University for an engineering degree. He went at night while working to pay for his education himself. My mother grew up poor, but she knew the only way to get ahead was to go to college. She was an honor student in high school, and won a full scholarship to Drexel University. When I graduated high school, it was assumed I'd go to college. I did, but I was young and immature, so I dropped out. I did return, but I went to my community college, paying for all but one class, and graduating. I did finish one degree, and almost finished a second while there. I also made the mistake of going to a private school later to obtain my BA, which I'm no longer attending because my loan balances are at $53k now, but ive been unable to find any fulltime work. My sister also attended community college, but her program was more expensive and challenging, so she had loans. Our mom helped her to pay them off though.
I think that private education has gotten so expensive that its becoming out of reach, and the process of needing to take loans to receive an education should be overhauled. But I really think that an entire class in high school should be dedicated to student loans.
1 person likes this
@scorpiobabes (7225)
• United States
15 Feb 13
I just did a search where I asked who determined the "hot" new career each year- not one college came up. I got links to Yahoo articles and Money magazine. The problem with determining those career fields EVERY year is that it takes so long to be educated, it may no longer be relevant.
I finished up my coursework for my photography degree in 1995. Back then, digital cameras were VERY expensive ($10k or so) and used more commercially. I contacted two local universities to see about transferring. Both schools reviewed my transcripts, and suggested I continue taking coursework at the community college level. So I did. But the classes included learning Photoshop, which I hadn't even heard of. But I caught on quickly, and found I had a knack for graphic design, so I began coursework in that vein. Once I learned QuarkXpress, I found a job, and dropped out of school. It was to be temporary, but Life got in the way.
Fast forward to 2005. I was a single mom, Girl Scout leader, had a full time job, and also had MS. My work schedule didn't permit me to go back to school. Then I read a Yahoo article that suggested I could ask my employer for more money if I had my Bachelors. And suddenly The Art Institute offered an online program in Graphic Design. I interviewed, was accepted, and began classes that July.
My employer wasn't too impressed with my fortitude-they laid me off less than five months later.
I continued in my quest to finish. I was to have originally graduated in June 2011-the same month my daughter graduated high school. Again, Life got in the way; first, in September 2008, I had a relapse and was hospitalized for four days. I also was unable to type or properly use a mouse. Second, my father took ill in Novemer 2009, just after I started a new class; he passed two weeks later, and I had a break down.
I'd love to go back and finish, but not when I've still got this debt over my head. No one fully explained to me about student loans until the last few years. I think that EVERYONE interested in obtaining a student loan should be educated as early as possible-waiting until you get to college could be too late. My skill set is completely outdated, so for me to find a job in the fields I was educated in will require even MORE education-and unless I was guaranteed a sit-down job, I really can't consider working.
As for unusual degree programs, one doesn't always have to work in the field. I know of a woman who had a degree in medieval history or something like that, and she was employed by Liberty Mutual, an insurance company. Sales companies often want someone with an education-they're not picky.
Your idea of having a high-yield savings account "sounds" good, but my stipends were often barely enough to cover my books, supplies and software, so I don't think it would have amounted to enough interest to make a payment on one of my loans.
@scorpiobabes (7225)
• United States
16 Feb 13
As I said earlier, my work schedule prevented me from attending a brick-and-mortar school (11AM-7PM M-F) or I wouldn't have considered the Art Institute. When I first considered attending online classes, the minimum age to attend most programs was 25-and I was only 21 at the time.
I ended up renting my textbooks from chegg.com (NOT A REFERRAL LINK!), and that did save me considerable money, but most of my texts were purchased and cost in upwards of $100 EACH-and some classes required two books! I could only afford to go half time, but each class cost about $2600, or $10,400 a semester!
I've been a member of Upromise since they first were around-I loved earning money every time I filled up my gas tank, but Exxon/Mobil quit doing that. I should get back into that, but I don't like paying a premium for certain products. I don't think I have enough in my account to even make the first payment though.
@AidaLily (1450)
• United States
16 Feb 13
The texts are expensive. I know someone with 7 books for a philosophy class and the school wanted her to purchase a $100 copy of the bible. She just went to the local church and asked for one. It was much cheaper.
I am curious to know (feel free not to answer) did you look for a college with distance learning programs? I know some colleges have offered them for a while. My college says you need to be at least 18 but it is part of an actual university with online courses.
They don't do that anymore? I thought I saw them listed on there. I finally decided to join it last year since I do some shopping online. I've used their grocery coupons more than anything though and those surveys they have.
If you are able to, maybe get back on Upromise and that way you can save up some money to pay down your student loans so you can finish.
@ptrikha_2 (47062)
• India
15 Feb 13
Here are my thoughts on this:
1)Colleges and Universities should be honest and transparent in telling how well are their campuses, how well is their faculty, how much resources they have, and how good are they in placement of Final year students. It would not be easy since not everyone likes to forego "easy" money making avenues.
However, in longer term, it would be better for the colleges/Univ as well as students enrolling in them and their parents.
2)Do not take more students than what you can comfortably teach. Now, this is not a hard limit and may vary from college to college and university to university. I have seen it happening in India also, that colleges take more students than required.
On the other hand, I have also seen some high reputation colleges putting a very high cut-off percentage(96% plus) for some courses, and some seats go unfilled in them. That should also not happen.
3)As for loans, I think that there should be flexible Loan repayment terms especially for students who might not get placed quickly after completing their course.
1 person likes this
@ptrikha_2 (47062)
• India
15 Feb 13
But I believe rather than suing colleges, they should be negotiated with and things dealt in a more amicable manner.
@cutepenguin (6431)
• Canada
15 Feb 13
I'm not sure about this. Because most people can look up or research how well a degree will help them with their job prospects. I think a lot of young people just aren't realistic about what this actually means.
Also, I think a lot of people would say that it is discrimination if you could only get loans for certain degrees.
@dandan07 (1906)
• China
16 Feb 13
I do not think so.
In China, many hot majors are sature in job market, even the government office put advice on these majors, but still many students choose the major, such as lawyer, financial projects and so on. I think the most important reason is that jobs from those major can help people earn a lot of money in the future.And the fee for those majors are usually higher than that for common majors.
While at the same time, some cold major can not get enough students, even their job market are very good.
Here many people want to earn money while do not like to work hard, so even the college give out right information, people still believe their own choices.
@jeanneyvonne (5501)
• Philippines
15 Feb 13
I can’t reply to your post point by point but I guess this is a timely matter to debate since many students in the US face students loans. Forgive me if I appear ignorant…that’s because I’m from another country.
First off, you can’t just sue collages or any educational institutions for the reason of debt loans. They are business and they are selling education as a service. The more people who enroll (for whatever reason or course), the more profitable the school will be. If it is in their interest to raise tuition fess, they will and only your government can do something about it. If I remember correctly, it is not compulsory for your citizens to take a college or educational degree if one doesn’t want or need it. Unlike here, most of the students are expected to be college graduates even for a meager job like a janitor. My country places too much emphasis on education but in our system, there is no credit. You pay by cash if you want so badly that degree. The only I know that accepts students loans are state-sponsored uni and colleges. This was mentioned by passing to e by my mother who works in one. For example, my friend who cannot pay his college fees any longer didn’t finish his degree and went to work straight instead. He has no debt from the school other what he paid during the semesters he attended. Also, there are no banks here offering that service (well, not that I know anyway).
Second, who’s the one lending the money? I assume that both colleges and private lending intuitions have a hand. If you go by the bank, it’s their interest rate you have to contend with and don’t expect them to be a merciful when it comes to money. I cannot discuss student loans by the colleges themselves because I’m unfamiliar with the concept.
I don’t know how schools market themselves in the US but most of the colleges here don’t promise a degree and a job afterwards (okay, one college pops to mind). When you’re choosing your degree, you pick which is in fashion and high demand. That would be the way that you could get a job quickly but it also means more competition. I also assume some my fellow students are a little more realistic. The friend that I mentioned earlier chose to delay his studies because family finances are tight. He’s the eldest and part of the expectation is he might give up his studies for the benefit of the whole family. But he’s still interested to go back, or so he says.
In my country, schools only dabble in the business of educating. If you want an education, go to school and pay in cash during the entire time you’re there. Once you graduate, you’re on your own but the school will take pride in you if you achieve something or just want you to be a generous alumni or graduate ceremony speaker.
In my view, there should be changes in the both sides. Always remember that college is always optional. If you can afford or want it, go for one.
@jeanneyvonne (5501)
• Philippines
15 Feb 13
Thanks for the lengthy explanation. So even the government gives loans? May I ask that if I applied for a degree in the US, either I cover the expenses tuition fully or have it partially in loan? It seems that every student and professional I watched and heard of has some loans regarding to their education (sorry this was on youtube).
A lot of colleges .... – Marketing at its finest. I know. I interned once in my school’s marketing department and frankly, I wasn’t surprised. Of course, without the promises of graduating. It’s more on a brand awareness and competing with other schools.
They don't understand the full implications and more of their debt. I say we include debt management as one subject in high school. Kids who want to go to college can start saving and promote that culture. Even if you have a loan, less chance of paying a huge amount with interest and over time. Why do they don’t teach this except for business-related courses?
a degree doesn't guarantee a job. – another thing that students should be aware of, the earlier, the better.
@AidaLily (1450)
• United States
15 Feb 13
It is a debate going on in the US as many students do face loans. One of the big things is that we have federal student loans, private institution loans, and there is a loan called a Perkins loan here in which the schools will sometimes use to help students who just need a little more to graduate.
She wants the colleges sued mainly over the federal student loans as that is a big issue right now. I agree with you in a sense that they are a business and tend to sell education as a service.
To explain the lending of the money a bit better since you are from another country, we have a form called the FAFSA which is the Free Application for Federal Student Aid. From this application, you can apply to get grants to help you through school as well as loans since a grant I believe only covers up to 5,550 dollars depending on what you qualify for. The rest of it is paid in student loans.
Federal Student Loans are loans given to students by the government for their studies and these must be paid back.
Private Institution (Banks) are loans given by the bank at lower interest rates for students depending on the bank of course.
School Sponsored loans are loans given to students by the school and they are responsible for paying the school back the money.
A lot of colleges to get more students may have advisers who promise or tell students they have this 95% chance of graduating, say their school has a lot of working graduates and neglect to mention most students were already working, and/or say once they graduate they will be able to get a job with a decent salary at the end of it if they get that degree.
There are many students who are more realistic but there are many newly entering college and even parents who are not. They don't understand the full implications and more of their debt.
I agree that they should not be sued but that their should be changes. My friend disagrees on this concept. I think the schools here should be more transparent and students should know all options. One option for example is giving back unused loan portions to the loan company.
I want to say college is optional but I don't know how long it will stay that way. The U.S. is getting to the point where if you want to make at least enough to live off of, then you have to get a degree but of course a degree doesn't guarantee a job. It is a slippery slope.
@AidaLily (1450)
• United States
15 Feb 13
Yes the federal government gives loans to students from the U.S. Department of Education.
It is fine if it was on youtube. :)
You can pay the loans back early. You can pay a good portion of your schooling and use loans to cover what you can't currently pay. So if the year in college is 16,000 and you only have 8,000 dollars currently but are working to save more, you can pay some of the 8,000 or all of it and then get loans to cover the rest. You can just pay for your semesters as well so you don't have to worry about loans. It all depends on your finances and for high school students the finances of your parents.
Most students and professionals do have loans but it depends on what they go for. For example at the community college my friend goes to in Arkansas, she has a classmate who pays for her own books and the pell grant, which you don't have to pay back, covers the rest so she has no loans at the moment.
I am not surprised by the marketing either, but I think they should have a full disclosure thing about it. Most people just want to go to school without researching what they need to do. For some majors that don't have many jobs at all, they could just do self study and while they don't have a degree they learned to do something they love and could turn it into something profitable by making their own business perhaps online if they wanted.
I agree that debt management and classes on student loans and more should be included but because parents make the mistakes of co-signing loans in which students fall prey to, I think the class should be a mandatory free class at the college.
It is funny you ask Why they don't teach this except for business-related courses? I am currently an Accounting student and while I knew about this stuff, it is explained in more detail in my finance/accounting classes. They should teach it overall because even the college help sites don't really cover it as much as they should.
Students should know a degree doesn't guarantee a job before even starting college but most don't. It goes back to that marketing thing. These colleges are promising jobs, using some confusing language in which they promise and yet not promise, and the amounts they say you can make would turn many heads to getting a degree they may not find work in.
If you have some other questions about to schooling or my post you want me to clarify. I will be happy to do it. :)
