Who`s right and who`s wrong ?
By iuliuxd
@iuliuxd (4453)
Romania
March 16, 2013 4:00am CST
"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing." - Stephen Hawking ( The great design )
"Nonsense remains nonsense, even when talked by world famous scientists." - John Lennox
What do you think ? Is philosophy and logic dead or being a great scientist doesn`t necessarily mean that you are also a good philosopher ?
6 responses
@matersfish (6306)
• United States
16 Mar 13
I personally don't know what "nothing" is. I honestly cannot fathom what it is to be without anything -- not even energy, no-- just nothingness. I can't wrap my head around that. Everything I think of that would be "nothing" is still something! 
And I can't pretend to know what Hawking means. Does he mean gravity was there? If so, it's not "nothing"; a force is there. So it can't be nothing.
He ends the quote with: Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.
Now, for that part in particular, I happen to agree. We don't need to call up a god to kick-start it all.
And the reason for me has always been simple. If we're to believe, one way or the other, that there was "nothing" (just no universe in this context), and then something, then adding in god (God/Allah/Zeus/any creator) is a redundant step.
I'm already leaping here to say the "nothing," because I don't know what it is (or "isn't," as it were). But it seems to me a much greater leap to name a creator.
Because I then have to go farther down the line. Okay, so, god X created it. Who/what created god X? Oh, god X didn't need a creator? Okay. Then why did the universe need one? Why? If god X didn't, if god X were timeless, then so too could the universe be. And I don't even need to add a redundancy.
I know of Hawking because I like his specials on black holes and relative time. I haven't read "The Great Design" or anything other than the complete quote to get the context of what he's saying.
But if it's nonsense and illogical that something can just exist without a reason for it existing, I think that applies to a creator as well.
And I can't pretend to know what Hawking means. Does he mean gravity was there? If so, it's not "nothing"; a force is there. So it can't be nothing.
He ends the quote with: Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.
Now, for that part in particular, I happen to agree. We don't need to call up a god to kick-start it all.
And the reason for me has always been simple. If we're to believe, one way or the other, that there was "nothing" (just no universe in this context), and then something, then adding in god (God/Allah/Zeus/any creator) is a redundant step.
I'm already leaping here to say the "nothing," because I don't know what it is (or "isn't," as it were). But it seems to me a much greater leap to name a creator.
Because I then have to go farther down the line. Okay, so, god X created it. Who/what created god X? Oh, god X didn't need a creator? Okay. Then why did the universe need one? Why? If god X didn't, if god X were timeless, then so too could the universe be. And I don't even need to add a redundancy.
I know of Hawking because I like his specials on black holes and relative time. I haven't read "The Great Design" or anything other than the complete quote to get the context of what he's saying.
But if it's nonsense and illogical that something can just exist without a reason for it existing, I think that applies to a creator as well.
@matersfish (6306)
• United States
16 Mar 13
So saying "God just is; it's a mystery, but it's still God" is okay. But saying "the universe just happened" makes someone a fool.
Got it.
@iuliuxd (4453)
• Romania
16 Mar 13
From my understanding of a law of nature it means "If A then B". The law does not create anything, just like 1+1=2 does not create anything. You still need A to have B.
But Hawking goes one step further and tells us that because "If A then B" exists then C can and will create C out of nothing. He doesn`t tell us why "If A then B " exists and how C creates itself. It`s like you pull your hair to raise above the ground or to move through space.
I don`t know about God but i haven`t seen anyone saying that God created Himself from nothing. People believe he is eternal and that this is a mystery. And for me such attempts to get rid of the mystery, as the one Hawking did, only show us how easy it is to make a fool of yourself.
(His book is also about the M theory and 10^500th universes).
I don`t know about God but i haven`t seen anyone saying that God created Himself from nothing. People believe he is eternal and that this is a mystery. And for me such attempts to get rid of the mystery, as the one Hawking did, only show us how easy it is to make a fool of yourself.
(His book is also about the M theory and 10^500th universes).
@robspeakman (1700)
•
16 Mar 13
A brief explanation of what Hawking meant.
Following the Big Bang everything was scattered - all was expanding and moving on an atomic level. As it was, the Universe was nothing.
Some particles and atoms were bigger and some were smaller. The different sizes exerted differing gravitional forces - The slight increases in the gravity was enough to force cohesion of atoms and particles until we had stars and Planets.
All from gravity.
He struggled with this concept and it took time until he developed this theory...
1 person likes this
@JHumphreys (22)
• Japan
17 Mar 13
No matter how great the theories are developed by Hawkings and others, they can't begin to deal with spiritual reality, only ignore it or deny it. While there are scientists that study spiritual phenomena, this kind of work needs to be mainstreamed, no matter where it leads.
@JHumphreys (22)
• Japan
18 Mar 13
Yes, I think that seeing/interacting with spirits would be one of the clearest examples of a spiritual phenomenon. Miracles are as well, although there could be, for instance, amazing and apparently inexplicable cures which also have physical explanations. As one who believes in a spiritual reality, and that each of us has a spirit, I believe that even in everyday life the spiritual has an influence, although it may not be obvious on the surface.
1 person likes this
@GADHISUNU (2162)
• India
30 Mar 13
A philosopher need not necessarily believe in God, just as every scientist need not necessarily be a philosopher too. Some scientists are. I have only one question to ask of Dr.S. Hawking who is an Athiest-Scientist. "Because there is a Law of Gravity the Universe can and will create itself from nothing." My question is how does a Law of Gravity arise in the first place.IOW, what is the First Cause? If gravity were there the Universe doesn't need a Creator! Fine, Who 'willed'that there must be a Law of Gravity or how did it come about?
So, not all questions are answerable. A scientist simply places his "faith" in the method of science to provide the answeres someday and resolves not to look for an answer till such date.
When a scientist talks of a "law" he is only giving words to the situation as its exists. He does keeps searching for causes, till he ends up in either circular reasoning hence the "guardian Knot is cut by calling that as the "starting point" hence a postulate!
@eurekafemme (5877)
• Philippines
18 Mar 13
Men can only do as much as think too much. Our brain capacity as well as the strength of our being can seem to think and believe everything beyond what's normal.
Noone could be right neither wrong. We are just humans bound to our own limitations no matter how intellectual we are. It is only The One who created us can decide who or what is wrong or right. BUt, we should know that both right and wrong do exist to keep the balance.
Have a great day, my dear.
@dorannmwin (36392)
• United States
18 Mar 13
I really don't think that philosophy and science are really things that go together all that well. You see when I was in college I was a biology major but I was attending a liberal arts school so that did mean that I had to take courses in philosophy. I struggled with the courses in philosophy because I am a scientist at heart. I want to know how things work and why they are the way that they are and that is not at all what philosophy is.
@iuliuxd (4453)
• Romania
18 Mar 13
So you believe someone can be a good scientist without being a good philosopher ?
Is science the only way we can understand things ? Like someone said "What science cannot tell us, mankind cannot know." ? Or you can also understand something through philosophy ?
@microengineer (587)
• Indonesia
16 Mar 13
There is a limit that human can do and imagine. Thus, God is far beyond of our thought. And believe in God sometimes can not be tracked to the train of logic.
Right or wrong? I stand at God side.
@iuliuxd (4453)
• Romania
16 Mar 13
You are right, i am doing the same thing, just push the big question on God`s shoulders and hope that one day (after i die), i will be able to find the answer.There are questions that can`t be answered unless you invent a god, even if you disguise him under bad logic and science.
