belief in eternal hell: what do I have to lose? what do you have to gain?

Ahh, Pascals Wager. I was just talking to my son this morning about this concept. The idea of Pascals Wager is simple enough. Pascal suggested that believers if proven wrong will have lost nothing, while none believers if proven wrong will have lost everything. It has several fallacies however. 1. Nowhere does it state which god it is that you're to worship. Throughout history, there have been hundreds, if not thousands, of gods. How do you go about pinpointing the right one? You could spend your life believing in God, and yet, upon dying, find yourself in the same predicament as non believers, for spending your time worshipping the wrong one. 2. If you do manage to somehow choose the right god, you have no idea what he expects of you. Unless he's come down to earth and given you a construct of worship, you're working on instinct and hope. You could find yourself at the pearly gates, only to be told that you pursued the wrong direction in terms of worship. 3. A non believer cannot make themselves believe, simple as that. Even if an atheist were to recognize that, for the sake of the gamble, it's a safer bet to believe, they can't MAKE themselves believe something that makes no sense to them. They could pretend to, but in the end, wouldn't God know the difference between a genuine believer and someone who only kept up the game of pretending? And this is all assuming it were the right god and the right form or worship, mind you. 4. And last but not least, the concept of nothing to lose is flawed. A believer who ends up being wrong will have lost countless hours to worship, hours or time spans that could have been better spent with family or doing something constructive. He will have lost countless dollars donated (tithes), and he will have lost the ability to rely on reason and freethought, instead of believing age old fairy tales. Don't misunderstand me. I think you're more than entitled to believe whatever you like, but the fallacies contained in Pascals Wager prove the entire theory more than a little ridiculous. Above all else, as an atheist, my viewpoint is simple. I recognize there is a slight possibility I'm wrong. I'd have to be an idiot to say with 100 per cent certainty there is no god. I can't prove that any more than a christian can say with 100 per cent certainty that there is. I simply haven't been provided any proof or logic that makes it make sense to me, so I lack that belief. Now, *If* I'm wrong, when I die, I would hope that I would be judged based on my merits, based on the deeds I've done, based on the life I've lived. I raised 5 kids, all turning out to be productive and well mannered members of society. I've helped out when I could, and tried to be a good person. I would hope those would be the points that I were judged on. If not, and I'm purely judged based on the hours I was playing with my son when I supposedly should have been praying, then that's not a god I would have wanted to spend my time worshipping anyway, and I've still lost nothing. :)

Have you ever heard of Pascal's wager? This guy called Pascal once said that you may as well believe in God as 'insurance' because that way, if there is a God you go to heaven but if there isn't, you don't lose anything. You see my problem with this theroy is that if you don't believe, you don't believe and frankly there's not alot that you can do about it, if I (assuming I'm a non-believer) decided to pray/go to church/do good deeds, 'just in case' there is a god and therefore a heaven and hell, it wouldn't work because God is supposed to be omniscient, no? So even if I wanted to believe, I can't because I don't truely believe inside of me and my heart does not believe it to be true and therefore if I 'pretend' to believe an omniscient God would know that I was simply decieving myself and I would probably go to hell anyway and all the time I spent praying and going to church in my lifetime would have been wasted completely.

I think that hell might be to feel all the sufferings we had cause to the others, when in life and not having eternal peace or at least till we strongly recognize that pain and suffering.

I don't think there is any harm in believing in hell. Even if it just keeps you on the "straight and narrow" to lead a better life, then that alone helps. Personally, I do believe in heavan and hell, and it does help keep my conscience in check. Granted, we're all still sinners, but it does make one think, doesn't it?

Heaven and hell are real, I can assure you. Your approach is good, which is like playing it safe. The truth is most people are so deep in sin, they cant imagine that some people are holy and obedient to Gods word. I pray they will repent before its too late.

There is heaven and hell and it exist. This is my belief. Whatever good or bad we do in our lives there is a reward for it.There is eternity in both these places. When we die we bid good bye to live an eternal life in any one of these two places. So daily when you all wake up try to plan to do always good to others and to lead an upright life which would lead you to heaven.

I do believe in eternal hell that we will loose our soul if we dont abide in God's will. Those who dont believe in God and Hell are those people who dont want to take the challenge of being in hell for they dont do what Gods will and afraid to think that they are going to be there.

You make a good point. But, let's say that Heaven and Hell are just metaphors for life in the here, and the now. DOn't you believe that one's philosophy should be the same, one way or another find admittance to Heaven and pardon from Hell? You'd think...

Well, it's an interesting concept, but I'm more on the side of there is a heaven and a hell. And I hope I'm going to heaven and a hell. But you know something, I would rather be safe than sorry. And I think this applies to the safe than sorry rule, because you never know what tomorrow may bring, but I would rather believe, than not believe. I don't know if I've really responded to your discussion in the context you were looking for, since there really isn't a question, but from my personal opinion, I'm a believer, rather than a rebellious person.

may be but i not tht kind of pppl

Well, this is a good one. I believe that our hell is here on earth (our everyday life). I think I am a good person and I live my life the way I want to live it. I do not go to a social gathering every wed., thurs,friday,sat, or sunday when ever you have church.I have been but I decided I can read the bible for myself. I do not need someone to read it for me. I am sure in the old days it helped people who could not read and write. I did see a lot of people that over spent on church clothes because they can not be seen in the same clothes every meeting. A lot of widowed people hooking up. Parents/grandparents trying to play match maker. It is a social gathering here. People coming to move up that ladder at work..I just wonder how many of the people who have faith and think they are safe will end up side by side with the non faith....

The Bible says, "what benefit will it be to you if you gain the whole world and lose your own soul? Mark 8:46". I truly believe in the Bible. For me all the answers about our existence and future are found there. I'm not sure if I hit your question or not. But I pray that God will help you find the answer.

In all circumstances set by Pascal's wager, there is always something to lose. But the question is which trade off you are willing to take the risk. .That is, between finite gain and infinite lose; and, infinite gain and finite lose. It is incomparable.

God is real period and if you even question that you will never know the true power of God, because you have no faith. God is love and if you don't believe you can't see his power because God works through faith.

To me, Heaven and Hell are what you make of it. You choose to be in Heaven or you choose to be in Hell, either way it is up to you. "Life is suffering" according to the Hindus and Buddhist teachings, but here is what life is to most other people: "Life is hardwork, joy, sorrow, luck, ups, downs, saddness, happiness, fun, adventure, love, a hobby, and whatever you want it to be." Life is your choice. Do with it what you will.

We'll i guess i'll just have to get over it, i'm going to burn in hell. I find it hard not to see religion as a way of controlling people and you've just backed me up. "Believe in God, or else" seems to be the jist of it. It's not possible to start believing in something you feel in your gut just isn't right, no matter what may happen to you.

What you just posited is known as Pascal's wager. It's an interesting look at afterlife and religion.