Talk Origin Misinforms Readers About Evolution Concerning Themodynamics - Part I

@owens07 (325)
Puerto Rico
February 15, 2007 5:58pm CST
Frank Steiger has published two essays in the Talk Origin archive, in which he does a respectable job of iterating the common evolutionist answer to this problem, But while the answer he presents may be adequate to convince many willing belieavers in evolutionism, careful examination proves it to be nothing less than the same inadequate work-around commonly served up as an answer to second law objections. Steiger also wrongly attributes false and misleading claims to his creationist counterparts, which, if taken at face value, would lend to Steiger much more relative credibility than he otherwise deserves. Add this tohis failure to meet the second law's challenge to evolutionism, and Steiger's work is reduced in simple terms to the same old song and dance with a few pot shots thrown in for effect. Not far into the more lengthy of his two Talk Origins essays ("The Second Law of Thermodynamics, Evolution, and Probablility" )he makes the grossly erroneous generalization: Steiger: "In fact, there are many exaples in nature where order does arise spontaneously from disorder:Sonwflakes with their six-sided crystalline symmetry are formed spontaneously from randomly moving water vapor molecules. Salts with presise planes of crystalline symmetry form spontaneously when water evaporates from a solution. Seeds sprout into flowering plants and eggs developinto chicks." The 'orderr' found in a snowflake or acrystal has nothing todo withincreased information, organizations orcomplexity, or available energy (i.e reduced entropy). The formation of molecules or atoms into geometric patterns such as snowflakes or crystals reflects movement towards equilibrium - a lower energy level, and a more stablearrangement of the molecules or atoms into simple, uniform, repeating structures with minimal complexity, and no function. These are not examples of matter forming itself into more organized or more complex structures or systems (as postulated in evolutionist theory) even though they may certainly reflect "order" in the form of simple patterns. Steiger fails to recognize the profound difference between these examples of low-energy molecular crystals and the high-energy growth process of living organisms (seeds sprouting into flowering plants and eggs developing into chicks)His equating these two very different phenomena reveals a serious misunderstanding of thermodynamics (as well as molecular biology) on his part, and he perpetuates this error in the balance of both essays. Nobel Prize winner Ilya Prigogine has no problem defining the difference: "The point is that in a non-isolated[open] system there exists a possiblily for formation of ordered,low-entropy stuctures at sufficiently low temperatures. This ordering principle is responsible for the appearance of ordered structures such as crystals as well as for the phenomena of phase transitions. Unfortunately, this principle cannot explain the formation of biological structures." [I. Prigogine, G. Nicolis and A. Babloyants, Physics Today 25(11): 23 (1972)]
1 person likes this
3 responses
@useradd (46)
• Canada
16 Feb 07
Hmm, ok. So if entropy is in question, why hasn't the theory been changed to reflect this data?
1 person likes this
@jricbt (1454)
• Brazil
17 Feb 07
Entropy is not in question here. In reality there is no question here The Theory of Evolution DOES NOT violate the 1st or 2nd Law of thermodynamics. People with some kind of desperate need to justify his faith and with a religious agenda need to create fake question, misquote documents, LIE , LIE and LIE MORE so they can (they think) attack the theory of evolution and impose his religious views on society.
@owens07 (325)
• Puerto Rico
20 Feb 07
Definitions of Entropy: Entropy change has often been defined as changed to a more disordered state at a molecular level. In recent years,entropy has been interpreted in terms of the "dispersal of energy" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy ..the change of entropy,or amount of disorder, that occurs in the molecules involved during the reaction. http://biotech.icmb.utexas.edu/search/dict-search2.html?bo1=And&word "The point is that a non-isolated [open]system there exist a possibility for formation of ordered, low-entropy structures at sufficiently low temperatures. This ordering principle is responsible for the appearance of ordered structures such as crystals as well as for the phenomenon of phase transitions. Unfortunately, this principle cannot explain the formation of biological structures. The probability that at ordinary temperatures. a macroscopic number of molecules is assembled to give rise to the highly ordered structures and to the coordinated functions characterizing living organism is vanishingly small." I.Prigogine, G. Nicolis and A.Babloyants, Physics Today 25(11): 23 1972 Evolution violates the Second law of Thermodynamics every step of the way, as the expansion of the "big bang" acquires information, organization and complexity, and information all by itself, and all in complete contradiction of the best natural law known to science. While many evolutionists ignore this problem, often dismissing it in the same fashion as Talk Origin has done as ( "a mere creationists misunderstanding") that fact is that there are evolutionist scientists, who at least recognize the problem, and even attempt to deal with it. Charles J. Smith recognized the challenge posed by the 2nd law of thermodynamics to the most significant unanswered "how and why" of evolution theory: "The thermodynamicist immediately clarifies the latter question by pointing out that the Second Law classically refers to isolated systems which exchange neither energy or matter with the environment; biological systems are open, and exchange both energy and matter.The explanation, however, is not completely satisfying,because it still leaves open the problem of how and why the ordering problem has risen ( an apparent lowering of the entropy),and a number of scientist have wrestled with this issue. Bertanlaffy (1968)called the relation between irreversible thermodynamics and information theory one of the most fundamental unsolved problems in biology." C.J. Smith (evolutionist)
@owens07 (325)
• Puerto Rico
20 Feb 07
1) Breakdown at the molecular level ultimately results in the complete deterioration of the organism. 2) Now the quote of the evolutionist is crap. Not because you have evidence to the contrary but because that's what you prefer to believe. 3)If I am misquoting a scientist then it up to you to show how I am doing so and not just throw out the same tired tactic. 4) I'm glad you're quoting from Talk Orign. It makes it much easier for me since the site I mainly quote from is set up to challenge Talk Orgin's packaged propaganda. If they had any sense they'd charge you guys entrance to their site. They'd be billionaires by now.
@Dano11 (173)
• United States
24 Feb 07
hi Owens, I agree witht he creationist views, most evolutionists were taught that in school, and don't see the flaws. No one has followed out the actual development of a productive increase in genetic information, how it becomes a viable increase, and who would be compatible to breed with this new change. Evolition would have to occur simultaneoulsly with enw offspring. How could the eye evolve? The beginnings of it would be useless, and therefore evolution within a specie would eliminate it. If one creature were born of blind parents, but had a pair of eyes to see with, some other parenting couple would also have to give birth to someone with the new genetic instructions in order for these two new creatures to breed. Evolutionists cannot explain, and in fact it is ignored and left out of school books, why there are dinosaur and human footprints fossilized in stone in Texas. Why the Bible describes a dinsaur and a fire breathing dragon, cultures around the world have these same legendary creatures, especially the fire breathing dragons. Amazing how so many cultures seperated by time and space and oceans, all came up with the same idea. Indian caves have drawings of Tricerotops and brachiosaurs. They may have been prehistoric people living in caves and grinding their grain with stones, but by golly their anthropologists rival that of modern day science. BTW, in answer to those who may ask, why don't they chan ge the teaching if the theory is proven wrong? Simple, too much money invested for one, and the alternative is, you might be held accountable by a higher form, like God. Well, whether you believe or not, if there is a God, you will be held accountable whether you want to be or not. May he have mercy on your soul...
@jricbt (1454)
• Brazil
26 Feb 07
I will just ask, if I post a link, where you can find one plausible scenario about the evolution of the eye, will you read or will you ignore because it goes against your faith? There are not dinosaur and human footprints side by side, dated from the same period on Texas. This is a so lame argument, so many times refutated that I am still surprised to see people using it. You see to think that evolution is one thing that magically happens, one day one species is born with a full eye, from blind parents, it is not, also you seem to think that new species appear magically, ready and completely different. It is not. And if you can proove that the theory is wrong, do it. Write a better one, everyone will accept it. It is how science works. But yet you use arguments like there are a lot of money on it so they will not change it (like churches are not richer than most, if not all, biology departments). Any scientific evidence for design? Or creation? No. only faith, more faith and attacks. Also you seem to use the argument from ignorance, since you don't understand how could it happen, it is not true. did you read all about the evolution of the eye to classify it as unlikely? What is your understanding of evolution?
@Dano11 (173)
• United States
24 Feb 07
P.S., I forgot to mention, entropy and the 1st & second laws are weak arguments although I agree with your point. This only applies to a closed system. hot water left in a pan at room temperature will cool down, analogy of entropy. If the burner is on, it will remain hot until it all evaporates, this is an analogy to an open system. The earth is not in a closed system, there is new energy being beamed at it constantly, thus the argument weakens. There are too many good questions evolutionists avoid or won't answer because we simply have no answer for them. They side step with we don't know, that does not mean it didn't happen. Used to be science was science when theory was proven, but for evolution, science says if it is theory it will be taught as fact without proof or real hard evidence. In the past two thousand years, 10's of thousands of species of animals have gone by the way side, and nothing new under the sun. This is entropy, even though we have an open system, but it still makes a weak argument. For those evolutionists who believe because I learned it in school, therefore it is, this is simple mindedness. For those who hold on becaue the laternative means a possible God, this is hanging on for dear life, and I don't blame you, because if creationsts are correct, (and plenty of evidence says it is), then the results would mean....
@owens07 (325)
• Puerto Rico
26 Feb 07
Thanks for your response. However, as i pointed out some scientists assert that thermodynamics apply do both open and close systems.
@jricbt (1454)
• Brazil
16 Feb 07
The point on your text is : recognize the profound difference between these examples of low-energy molecular crystals and the high-energy growth process of living organisms (seeds sprouting into flowering plants and eggs developing into chicks) First there is a lot of energy out there, guess what, it comes from THE SUN!!!!!!! Wow, so there is energy available for high-energy growth process. And about Ilya Prigogine, Do you know what he wrote on the article from this quote come? Well, as a proof of your confusion (or dishonesty), the quote is misused and the article is favorable to evolution, not against it. Funny how you repeat the usual arguments of creationists. Pathetic. More info? see : http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/feedback/jan03.html