Is America still free?

To bad that T-shirt is wrong. Waco, Ruby Ridge, Donald Scott at Four Corners, Vince Foster at the White House, not to mention the murders and disappearances at Mena, Arkansas, just to name a few.

Believe it or not, I actually think that we should not have gone to Iraq. I don't blame Bush on this mainly because Saddam had everyone believing that he had WMD's including the UN. The Halliburton Deal is something that was fought and resolved during Bush's first term. It was bid, and Halliburton won it. The democrats were furious because their friends didn't get a share. This is old news. And Bush was re-elected. What bothers me most is Congress claiming that they were lied to. They are doing nothing more than Damage Control and trying to cover their own butts at Bush's expense. Bush is the convenient scapegoat now that public opinion has changed about Iraq. That is why they are saying that they were mislead, especially certain ones who voted in support of the war and are now running for president. Did Bush make mistakes, you bet. Could it have been handled better, probably, but without full possession of the facts who can say for sure? We have been involved with Iran and Iraq for years, both as allies and as enemies to both countries. This was long before either of the Bushes or Clinton entered office. I have known that we were going to the Mideast since about 1975 or '76. I was in the service then at Ft.Hood. Just before I went to Germany we started redoing the Camo paint on the vehicles from Jungle Green to Desert Tan. This was shortly after the Hostage Crisis with Iran started, and Carter was in office. Since then we have been involved in that area several times. This is not limited to Bush, Clinton, or any other president. This is something that has been going on behind the scenes for many years. This is something that goes beyond the presidency itself. That is why I think it is wrong to blame Bush, just as it would be wrong to blame Clinton if it would have been him instead. Bush has made some serious mistakes in domestic policy when he came up with the Patriot Act. This war however, I believe there is something more than a presidents wishes involved here, and it has nothing to do with political parties either.

You're surely right, Des, it's not about parties or politicians, it usually comes down to the money or the oil, doesn't it. Geez - I never knew we switched over to desert cammo that long ago. You're also right about how far back this goes. Our problems in the Middle East go way back to the 40's & 50's, when we were both supporting Israel's right to exist and doing all kinds of CIA stuff under deep cover, messing with established gov'ts and even supporting some of the terrorists of the day. Our policy flip-flops in the area haven't helped, either. We go back and forth, outfitting and arming insurgent groups, then abandoning them when the winds of Washington shifted. So, maybe it turns out that Dubya is merely reaping the whirlwind sown by many others. Hey, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy! Thanks for making me think, it sure is fun debating with you! =o)=o)=o)

Yeah, obviously Bush censors anyone that doesn't agree with him..... Wait... That makes no sense at all...

We have all lost rights because of the patriot act. In that respect, sir, you need to wake up. However, I will agree with you fully, in that the democrats are no better than the republicans.

Thanks for your reply. No, I have not. However, had I not decided that discretion is the better part of protest and left that Bush rally, I would have been arrested as a potential terrorist and threat to the president. Bush's storm troopers told me that, in so many words. This so-called leader of the free world seems to believe that free speech only belongs to those who agree with him. It is a well documented fact that the GOP out raises and outspends the Dems in every election cycle. You seem to be confused between a pol's personal wealth or net worth and their campaign funds. Everyone in the Senate is a millionaire, not just Kerry. These guys don't spend much of their own money on their campaigns, that's why we now have presidential hopefuls on the road begging for cash nearly two years before the election. I have some radical ideas on how to deal with this, but I'll have to save them for another thread.

All Americans that pay taxes got a tax refund... And trickle down economy has made unemployment go down drastically.

Gardengrrl-the American budget has run at a deficit for many years. I remember hearing about deficit spending when I was a kid. To my knowledge we have never run a surplus, at least not since before WW1.

Krause, thanks for your reply. It is disgusting that the minimum wage was the same for TEN YEARS while the millionaires on the Hill voted themselves pay raise after pay raise. Bush and his cronies took a budget that ran a surplus and created the biggest deficit in world history. People, wake up! The U.S. Government meets its obligations by BORROWING MONEY FROM CHINA! Don't you think this is going to be a problem somewhere down the road? I'm with you, we have to get a President in office who will deal with the REAL threats to our democracy instead of spending the blood of our brave young people to beat up a bully who hasn't been a threat to us for a decade! MrNiceGuy, when the working poor get their tax refunds, many of them spend the lot of it just to get caught up on their bills or buy things like schoolclothes for their children. I know a $1500 or $2500 tax refund sounds like a lot, but for folks who have to work two or even three of the minimum wage service sector jobs that Dubya is so proud of creating, it only serves to keep them from going broke or homeless a while longer. One of Dubya's greatest crimes against this nation is his oppression of the people at the bottom of the economic pyramid. It is from our labor (yes, I count myself among them) that all wealth upward flows. Middle and upper class people, take heed: if you keep chipping at the base of the pyramid, eventually, the whole will fall.

History shows that countries didn't like the US before we ever set foot in Iraq. The events of 9-11 are just one of many that demonstrate this.

yeah, people don't like us anyway, so let's see how high we can fan the flames of hatred, and how many soldiers we can kill or maim for nothing along the way. Sounds like an excellent foreign policy - NOT!

Thanks for your reply. You make an important point, many more people around the world hate America since we foolishly went adventuring in Iraq. It is also terrible that the actions of our government do not reflect the thoughts of many, if not most Americans, but it is how we are judged globally.

And what would that make it if Hillary gets in? I fail to see the difference here.

One, Hillary isn't a drunken college student, she's a highly intelligent and very experienced public servant who has demonstrated a great deal of courage and dignity in the face of absolute public humiliation. Two, she doesn't demonstrate any of the thoughtless and impulsive behavior that so characterizes these two generations of spoiled rotten Bushes. Three, there's a chance that Senator Clinton could actually do some good things for the country. Maybe in 30 years, we'll be able to say the same of one of the twins. I wouldn't bet on it, though. I think you don't see the difference because you don't want to. Wasn't there a song once about there's none so blind as they who will not see?

Thanks for your reply. You're right, our seniors deserve to be listened to with respect and understanding. OMG, a monarchy? Can you imagine having Bush's daughters as the next in line to the throne? At that point, I would have to start seriously thinking about emmigration!

Thanks for your reply. I know exactly what you mean about folks just being too tired to engage in the process. Last year, I was part of a group of tenants of a rundown but affordable apartment complex who were faced with eviction because some rich old white men wanted the land to build million dollar "McMansions". We just wanted to have our moving expenses paid, and a small fund established to provide a little help to the families who would struggle with the new, higher rent they'd be paying. Did the tenants pack the hall where we held our rallies? Heck, no. Apathy reigns supreme, again! As far as voting, I look at it this way: rich right wingers vote, every one of them, every election. It is my sacred duty to use my vote to cancel out one of theirs. Don't know if that's rational, but it keeps me going to the polls! =o) I'll be starting another thread on the Electoral College this week, watch for it. The title will be, "The Electoral College: an idea whose time has passed?" This is an idea brought to you by the same people who said that a black man counted as 2/3 of a person, and a woman counted not at all. Doesn't sound very 21st century, does it?

Amen! And thanks for your clear and succinct reply!

http://www.mylot.com/w/discussions/583208.aspx

Thanks, I liked yours too. :)

Great rant! Thanks for the link, and for your reply.

IF an honest person ran for president(ha,ha)and IF we could text our vote on a cell phone, maybe, just maybe we could turn The United States of America in the right direction. But first we must get rid of the illegal IRS....But thats another story.

So true... and so sad! You're right, now it's like government by the monied, for the monied. Whatever happened to politicians who used their "bully pulpit" to speak the truth, whether or not we wanted to hear it? Oh, I know - they were defeated for re-election! And doesn't it really suck that more people vote on American Idol than in most Senatorial and Gubernetorial elections? Sometimes it seems like, united we stand, but only in the checkout line at the mall! Thanks for your reply.

Thanks for your reply. How true, we're so busy consuming material goods and running up our credit card bills that we've let control of our nation fall into the hands of the very few. Our civil rights are under attack, and most folks don't know it - or don't care.

gardengrrl-It would not matter who was in office. If letters that can be construed as a threat are sent to the White House the person that wrote those letters is going to receive a visit. I don't think Bush ever saw those letters, as his mail is inspected before he gets it. The SS is the ones responsible for what happened to that man, not Bush. The same thing would have happened if it had been Clinton. For you to call Bush a coward because of the actions of the people assigned to protect him is really taking a cheap shot. Bush is not the only president that has had something like this happen.

Actually, I think he's a coward for thousands of reasons, starting with dodging the draft by joining the Reserves and then using daddy's connections to avoid going overseas, but that's another discussion..... I have heard of just a few instances of people being investigated for unwise wording in a letter to the White House, but the words actually constituted a threat, however unintentional. But, Beliose, not only does he not threaten, but they've done this to him five times - FIVE TIMES! The only idiots here are the people who read the mail for the head Idiot and don't keep a list of people who've already been investigated and cleared. I am trying to talk him into filing a lawsuit, but he doesn't believe in that - says lawyers are most of what's wrong with world today. My America is far freer than yours, as it should be, and I hope and pray that the concept of free speech you're espousing never comes to pass, because that will be a sad day for us all. Peace, and thanks for your replies.

Thanks for your reply. Look at your own words: "threatening to wish harm". Since when is it illegal to make a wish? A wish is not a threat, in fact it is very nearly the opposite of a threat. Wishes seldom come true, remember? The only limit to free speech needs to be about things like yelling fire in a crowded store when there isn't one, or actively inciting violence or killing. This old man PAID for his right to criticize the dramatically UNproductive dolt in the White House with his tears and terror, blood and sweat in Europe 60 years ago. God save us from an America where wishes can turn your life upside down! If it happens again, I'll record the scene and post it on the web, so all can see how truly pathetic and cowardly Dubya has become. If you have to terrorize a half-crippled, 75 year old decorated WWll veteran because he wishes for you the same suffering you lay upon others, you are one sick and twisted son of a b**ch. Peace.

Thanks for your reply. It is too true, the Average American is just too lazy to do the hard work that being an active, engaged member of our democracy takes. When we don't do our job, it's easy for cretins like Bush, et al, to take over and do as they please. It is a very long road ahead, indeed, but I'm more than willing to walk it the whole way, and I pray to God that enough others are, too. Time will tell. Hope we live long enough to see what happens!

Thanks for your reply, and God bless you and keep you safe as you pursue your military career! The problem I have, is, I don't think that our brave soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen are fighting for our interests, at least not in Iraq. I think it was PJ O'Rourke who once described the Middle East as "a quarrel with borders", and he was right. The tribes and sects there have been fighting for thousands of years. Nothing short of a mass nuclear strike will make them stop. In destabilizing Iraq, we've accomplished two, and only two things: we hastened their descent into civil war, and we increased worldwide hated of the U.S.A. by about a million percent. Even worse, we did it for a big, fat lie. Saddam hadn't been a threat to us since the first Bush humiliated him with Desert Storm a decade before. If we hadn't divided our forces to fight in Iraq, we would most likely have been able to accomplish a great deal more in the REAL war on terror, the one in Afghanistan. Instead, we left little more than a skeleton force there, and the terrorists and the Taliban are resurgent and more deeply entrenched than ever before. All so Haliburton could make a few billion dollars rebuilding what we destroy in Iraq. Is that really what courageous young people like yourself should be dying for? Good luck and God bless!

lol...thanks for the headsup about Des! It's fun arguing with him, though, he makes his points well and doesn't get TOO snarky about it. You're absolutely right about the Terrorist Act (I like that one!), and I wasn't aware of the part about the warrantless searches near the border. I guess Dubya and his pals are counting on this never getting to the Supremes, just as you say. I still can't believe that my fellow Americans don't understand, if anyone in law enforcement invokes the Act against you, you are suddenly swept from the U.S. to the U.S.S.R.! That's one of the reasons I went off with my Falwell discussion (Fall well, straight to hell!), because that wanker began the movement that led to this moron holding the White House! It sucks, but sometimes I think we've become nothing more that a nation of sheep, happily grazing at the mall with Visa! I have to remind myself that more people didn't vote for Bush than did...but then I get all depressed about that!

Thanks for your reply. What you say is very sad, but true. Isn't it ironic that the "babyboomers" the very generation who raised political protest to its highest level since the Civil War, are now so busy feeding at the trough that they can't see what a truly effed-up America they're leaving to their children?

Thanks for your reply. Only half of us, Roger, only half of us choose this fool. That's the worst thing about living in a so-called "representative democracy", sometimes you're stuck living with the bad choice of just over half the people. My "Don't blame me, I didn't vote for this fool" t-shirt is so well worn I'll have to replace it soon!