Science is wrong.

@missak (3311)
Spain
May 16, 2007 11:52pm CST
Ok, not alway, of course, but I want to take the attention of all thoose science believers that claim religion is wrong because of science. First, there are lot of science branchs that involve religious matters, such as defined by Aristotles as "methaphysics" as the oposite and complimentary to "physics". But second, science is wrong many times, so it is also something that we have to believe and have trust (=faith) in order for it to work. Have you ever heard of Thomas Kuhn and his explanations of the actual scientific developpping-undevelloping? Check out his definition of Paradigm:It has since become widely applied to many other realms of human experience as well even though Kuhn himself restricted the use of the term to the hard sciences. According to Kuhn, "A paradigm is what members of a scientific community, and they alone, share.” (The Essential Tension, 1997). Unlike a normal scientist, Kuhn held, “a student in the humanities has constantly before him a number of competing and incommensurable solutions to these problems, solutions that he must ultimately examine for himself.” (The Structure of Scientific Revolutions). A scientist, however, once a paradigm shift is complete, is not allowed the luxury, for example, of positing the possibility that miasma causes the flu or that ether carries light in the same way that a critic in the Humanities can choose to adopt a 19th century theory of poetics, for instance, or select Marxism as an explanation of economic behaviour. So these are the sad "commandments" of someone who believes in science:1, Paradigm shifts are a necessary part of life. Things do change, and we have to adjust to that change. 2. Paradigm shifts can be bad. Society needs quite a bit of stability, so that it can depend on its view of the world. Constant shifts in major elements of our paradigm would make our lives very difficult. 3. Paradigm shifts often come from the young. Older people have more to conserve. They have more of investment, financial and psychological, in their paradigm. Winston Churchill said that any man who is not a liberal at 20 has no heart, and any man who is not a conservative at 40 has no mind. 4. You cannot abandon a paradigm until you have one to put in its place, because our paradigm is that which allows us to function. Without a paradigm, good or bad, we cannot function. 5. It usually takes a long time to effect a paradigm shift - often as much as 20 years, about the life of a generation. (See Point 3 above, and for an example, see also Maxwell.) For more information:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kuhn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift http://www.ee.scu.edu/eefac/healy/kuhn.html Ok, I hope to hear your opinion and if you ever thought on this before, or read Kuhn stuff before, please share.
3 people like this
9 responses
• Philippines
19 May 07
I'm sorry but I'll argue that science and religion are not essentially wrong and both can do co-exist in a postmodern society. Whereas, science bases its judgment from factual and verifiable evidence through research and experimentation. Science embraces logic and critical thinking, hence, it doesn't just accept anything presented before it without scrutiny and that it is beyond reasonable doubt. Whereas, religion builds on the faith of a people and their reverence on a Supreme Being, as creator, god or any applicable term for that matter. Religion focuses on the spiritual dimension of a person, whose scope is problematic if subjected to scientific scrutiny. Now, I'll argue that science and religion need not necessarily be in conflict. Close-mindedness shouldn't widen the gap between the scientific community and the Church (in particular). Both spheres of thought can exist in a single theory, an example of which is Theistic Evolution. Theistic evolutionists would agree that creation is a scientific phenomenon, yet recognizes that God plays a significant role in its onset and throughout time. Unlike sole Creationism and Evolutionism per se, where God and Science are respectively mutually exclusive in the search for the origin of life, Theistic Evolution strikes a balance between both paradigms and establishes science need not be in conflict with religion and religion not counter science.
@missak (3311)
• Spain
20 May 07
You're right!! Thanks for your post!
1 person likes this
• China
18 May 07
I think you're wrong,but in the same time I like your way of thinking.
2 people like this
@missak (3311)
• Spain
18 May 07
I am happy of this, but please, put on some arguments so that I can understand why, and if I am really wrong, I would be happy to learn from you!
1 person likes this
@Lydia1901 (16351)
• United States
20 May 07
Well, you are pretty much allowed to believe whatever you want and if that is what you believe, I say go for it.
1 person likes this
@Lydia1901 (16351)
• United States
21 May 07
All I am saying is you can believe whatever you want.
1 person likes this
@urbandekay (18278)
21 May 07
So, you say but can we hold contradictory beliefs? all the best urban
2 people like this
@urbandekay (18278)
20 May 07
You know, I like the general tenor of this debate but I think there are a number of confusions. Firstly, Aristotle's metaphysics is not opposite or complimentary to Physics. Meta here means next to, not because of the subject matter but because the writings, the title to which was missing, were next to Aristotle's writing on Physics. Many versions of Metaphysics, offered by philosophers, throughout the ages have broadly sympathetic to science. Science has been wrong many times, well yes, in a sense it has. Science is always an appeal to the contingently best solution available at the time, and accepts that that solution is open to revision. What you say about paradigms is has some truth in it, and as you so rightly say is a worthwhile read for anyone. Particularly with respect to scientific disciplines and perhaps also about the humanities more than they might like to admit, not all areas of human life fit this model, you should also be aware of Lakatos argument with Kuhn, sorry a reference escapes me. The quote you attribute pre-dates Winston Churchill all the best urban
1 person likes this
@urbandekay (18278)
21 May 07
Indeed, John Locke called his philosophy the work of the under-gardener clearing the ground for science. Metaphysics seems to be the postulation of some kind of non-apparent ontology that explains and accounts for the observed ontology. Modern philosophy of the English school (UK, US and Scandinavian countries, etc.)has tended to shun metaphysics due in part to its speculative nature, though perhaps in some guise it creeps back. Perhaps, relevant to you discussion is the question, to what degree is science instrumental. For instance, often it is accepted that matter is composed of atoms, atoms of sub-atomic particles, etc and that the properties of the gross matter are dependent on the properties of its constituents but I have greater knowledge and certainty of gross physical objects than I do of their constituents. It seems at least as valid to me to argue that matter behaves AS IF it were composed of atoms, etc, without making any ontological commitment to their existence. Of course, scientists may need to regard such things realistically in order to study them, in just the same way that some Mathematicians regard numbers as real, rather than abstractions of relationships that exist between real objects all the best urban
1 person likes this
@missak (3311)
• Spain
21 May 07
Thanks for this explanation, very interesting. all the best for you also.
@missak (3311)
• Spain
20 May 07
Thanks for your post!! Very good points here also. I'll have a look on Lakatos argument, sounds very interesting. I didn't know where the name of "methaphysics" come from, it is good to know it, but I didn't wanted to mean it is opposite to science, on the contrary, as far as I know, for Aristotles and other philosophers claim that science is composed by both methaphysics and physics, is this right? How do you define methaphysics?
• Denmark
18 May 07
There's nothing wrong with science. Asking questions is always better than just believing what you are told by religious or other authorities. When "science goes wrong" it's not the actual science that's the problem - it's the way some humans decide to utilize the scientific results. Don't blame the science, knowledge is always better than ignorance. (Or "faith")
@missak (3311)
• Spain
18 May 07
What I wanted you to think is that actually in science you have to believe what you are told by scientists and other "autorities" such as divulgation magazines. Also religious people can say when "religion goes wrong", it's not the actual religion what is the problem, but a few humans that use it for bad purposes or their own proffit. Religion can be a background of spiritual/methaphysical knowaledge like science is a background of physical knowaledge. I don't find alll religions are based on faith, perhaps just the Abrahamic religions. Other religions are like this: "when you love things go right (observation), so it is good to love (hypotesis), and you get spiritual peace(theory)". That is also a scientific way.
@missak (3311)
• Spain
18 May 07
Wooah, that's a good and beautiful statement, I have to agree.
• Denmark
18 May 07
I think having one of them without the other is absurd. Religion without science is believing without knowing. Science without religion is like knowing individual parts of a picture but at having no idea what the total picture might look like.
1 person likes this
@Harley009 (1416)
• India
19 May 07
I agree with you to a certain extend. In the current sense current science is right and some of the previous scientific fats is wrong. And current truth in science may rewrite in future. Science is always varying and religion remains stable more. Religion isn't science and science isn't religion, but both helps each other. Many of the points or things mentioned in Holy Books made scientists think and to invent many things, also the scientific discoveries helped religion to show that thing mentioned religion is right or wrong based on the same time science thinking. The paradigms explained is somewhat hard for me to digest. We need both science and religion, helping each other and for the development of mankind.
2 people like this
@Stiletto (4579)
17 May 07
Of course science can be wrong. Scientists deal with the facts and evidence available to them at the time. I'm an atheist but I don't attribute my atheism to science. People either believe in a God/Religion or they don't and I don't. I don't necessarily see science and religion as being mutually exclusive - I'm sure there probably are many scientists who have religious beliefs. I'm not familiar with Kuhn's work but it sounds interesting. Will check it out sometime.
1 person likes this
@missak (3311)
• Spain
17 May 07
Thanks for your answer!
@susieq223 (3742)
• United States
18 May 07
I agree that we have to look carefully at things before we declare this or that is fact and never going to change! Each new discovery creates a potential shift in previous paradigms. I feel the same way about religion. Most religious theories are just that, theories, based on knowledge or emotion at the time.
1 person likes this
• Philippines
17 May 07
What is science? It's just a method of trying to discover things, really. A lot of times it does turn wrong because discovering about something requires the process of trial and error - you try something, and if it goes wrong, you try again until you get into the right answer. Then you put what you have discovered into writing so that nobody needs to commit the same errors again. You really can't put science and religion together, no matter what. The reason is really very simple - Science is about PROOFS. Religion is about FAITH.
1 person likes this
@missak (3311)
• Spain
18 May 07
Thanks for your answer. Please check out the answers to 7 and 11 (sorry, it is to late here and I don't have time to rewrite it for you). I will discuss it further tomorrow.