Anti-Religious Extremism!

@kamran12 (5526)
Pakistan
September 15, 2007 6:54pm CST
I sense Anti-Religious sentiments almost about everywhere, on this and similar forums, research groups, Media outlets (both electronic and Print). This, in itself, has gone to what I call Anti-Religious extremism. But, before I formally start my discussion, I must clear two points. First, I am not playing a victim here, not at all. Second, This post is not against a particular individual, group or belief system. What I truly desire from mylotians, is genuine deliberation, objectively, and with an open mind. I feel that much of the problem, in understanding, is because of ‘overwhelming’ information and, yet, ‘lack’ of knowledge. People don’t seem to have time for books and they type in Google or Wikipedia or any other search engine to get information. So, when they type extremism and similar other key words, the overwhelming results are all about religions. We have become so superficial that our thoughts are formed by others and not by our own investment of time into the subject. I have discussed War issues and crimes, Terrorism, Suicide bombings and similar subjects in recent days and I wish to sum them up here. It’s true that Organized Religions have been guilty of war crimes, mostly in what are known as Crusades, Inquisition and Holy wars and later, in so called Terrorism and Suicide bombings. What I do however feel is that there is dishonesty regarding the details of war history, which is usually very selective and always against religions. Most of Organized War crimes committed by today’s Organized Religions happened during early 4th and 15th century. What people tend to forget is that there is filthy War history before and after this period which isn’t mentioned when atrocities are discussed because Religions can’t be blamed, directly and honestly. Even, within that period, many a time, Religious atrocities were reactive rather than proactive and sometimes they were also subjected to brutal War crimes. There is a long list of war crimes committed by Pagan empires before 4th century, even against Christians. Christians were tortured, killed, mutilated, burnt and sacrificed for three centuries until the tables were turned by King Constantine who committed same crimes against those who were doing the same, earlier. After 15th century, most of the devastation is brought by nationalistic, political and geo-political agendas. Rather, even before 15th century (13th to 15th), Mongols brought worst form of crimes and barbarity against human kinds killing several millions and subjugating 100s of millions but no body seems to discuss them. Devastation brought about by non-Religious, Atheistic or secular forces is worst of all times after 17th century and especially in the last century. Many wars which are told as religious wars had nothing to do with religion but were purely on nationalistic and geo-political motives or even on personal motives. All Colonial wars, WWI, WWII, 1st and 2nd Sino-Japanese Wars, Vietnam war, Iran-Iraq war(Saddam was a Marxist secular), Afghan war, Iraq war, Khalistan Movement, Tamil Tigers movement, Kashmir, Chinese-Indian war, freedom movements in Ireland and Scotland, and many, many other such events were never religiously motivated. They claimed more than 125 million deaths and 100s of millions of other casualties and sufferings. My question: Don’t you think that Religions are unfairly over criticized by only mentioning their crimes and leaving aside other bigger crimes against humanity? If religious war history suggests that Religions should be taken out than more devastating non-religious and secular war history would suggest what?
5 people like this
6 responses
@lecanis (16647)
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee
16 Sep 07
"Many wars which are told as religious wars had nothing to do with religion but were purely on nationalistic and geo-political motives or even on personal motives." This really says it all for me, to be honest. I have heard so many times people say "If there were no religion, there would be no war" or "If all people were one religion, there would be no war" but quite frankly it's simply not true. Though many times religion has been used to excuse certain actions, wars are fought for political or personal ambitions most of the time. I think that it's frustrating when people try to misinterpret and misuse history in order to assault other people's beliefs, or even lack of beliefs. And honestly it just perpetuates the problem rather than solving anything. It's frustrating. Frankly, it even frustrates me when people of my own religion obsess over things that happened hundreds of years ago. As far as I'm concerned, if you have faced discrimination because of your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) in your own lifetime, then you have a right to complain. But obsessing over the crimes of history is just a way of not moving forward, in my opinion. Um, sorry if this wasn't my best or most on-topic post ever, I'm very tired.
4 people like this
@kamran12 (5526)
• Pakistan
16 Sep 07
Hello lecanis!:-) Yours was an intelligent post, lecanis! and not off-topic. I also hope that you take proper rest. What I see as a problem is that Seculars/Atheists try to use war history to claim that religion should be taken out because it committed crimes. Even the acclaimed scholar Richard Dawkins use the same point to make a case against Religions. I see this same bias perpetuated by the secular media for certained vested interests. They always try to offer Atheism and secularism as 'peaceful' alternatives. My only objective of this post is to request people that they should be objective and educated when dealing with war history, that secular forces has been more cruel, barbaric and criminal than the religious forces. I respect the right of Atheists or seculars to choose to be Atheists or seculars but to say that they are peaceful in unconditional terms is not a very truthful statement to make. Their, as well as secular forces' recent past is as painted in blood as the religious past is. This world has seen more devastation from the hands of seculars than any Religious fanatic.
3 people like this
• United States
16 Sep 07
Good Evening Kamran :)) When I think of "religion" I think of any organized belief system, so when you say Pagans that in and of it self to me is a belief system therefore a religion. Even the Aztec nation had an organized belief system in place, although we view it as paganistic. To them it was religion. Our Native American Indians had organized beliefs each specific to tribes. Did they call it religion, no I don't think they did, but it most certainly was. They used their prayers and beliefs to futilely fight against a greater organized belief system to hold on to their lands. So no I don't find any unfairness when speaking of religious warfaring. Its so many other small wars in the world that get over looked, the war on poverty, the war on child abuse, the war on crime and hatred that has no real basis in religion.
4 people like this
@kamran12 (5526)
• Pakistan
16 Sep 07
Good Evening Angelwhispers!:-) You are very right about the definition of "Religion", In fact what I was referring to was peoples' perception about Organized Religions. Some think that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the only Organized Religions, others would include some of the denominations in the definition. But, if we think that every religious fellowship always try to organize itself, the defintion of Organized Religion would not be different from Religion itself. LOL! even the Atheist organize themselves and have gatherings. So, in terms of Organization, every group is organized. Some, however, choose to be away from group. In this sense, Yes, Almost every belief system is a religion and an organized one for that matter. But, I myself was not excluding Pagans from the definition of Religion. I mentioned them separately because of peoples' perceptions as I have detailed above. Other than that, my point about Anti-Religious environment did not exclude Pagans per se. What I am trying to say is that All war crimes by all religious forces under religious motives have been much less disastrous and claimed much less human toll than by the crimes committed by non-Religious people under non-religious, secular or Atheistic agendas. I do find it a little unfair especially when hatred against religion is tried to be presented selectively and for certain political motives. People are made to believe that secular systems are peaceful and not as criminal as religious systems are, which, I find an unfounded claim. The point that I am trying people to see, with facts and figures, is that secular systems have been much more cruel, barbaric and criminal compared to religious forces. It doesn't make the crimes done by religious motives any good but I do wish that people see these crimes, objectively and honestly, to draw a balanced and judicious conclusion. Thanks for sharing your views, it's always good to see you!:-)
2 people like this
@polachicago (18716)
• United States
17 Sep 07
My friend, religion is very personal and should be left for people to make own decision what to believe and why. In the other hand more religions are harmless, unless one wants to claim saint war for other people by killing them.
3 people like this
@kamran12 (5526)
• Pakistan
17 Sep 07
Hello polachicago!:-) Good to see you! I agree with you on everything you said. I have nothing to add more to that:-)
2 people like this
@Idlewild (6090)
• United States
16 Sep 07
Maybe part of the problem is that a lot of the non-religious extremist events you mention occurred centries ago, whereas violence having to do with religion happened back then too but is still happening today. Of course, there are many more recent incidents of violence and extremism not related to religion, such as the crimes perpetuated by communist countries (but these arenot something a lot of younger people would be remember.) Also most of the extremists who are acting under religious pretenses are only a small minority of the people practicing their given religion, but because they committ these acts they get publicized by the media. It's like when people of a certain ethnic or racial group commit crimes, etc. and they get on the news, and all people of that group get painted with the brush of being criminal.
4 people like this
@4ftfingers (1310)
3 Feb 08
I see religion as the excuse for war, rather than the cause. People have been making war for years, and will be making war forever, there is no changing that - it's in our nature. Although there are a lot of people who beleive in equality (having socialist policies), there is not enough, there will always be people who beleive those who work harder should get more, (Personalist values). If their reasoning does not work, they can turn to religion because often it does not require reasoning. For example, if two men from different religions stumble upon a gold-rich piece of land, one man may say 'this is my land, because my God told me to come here, he todl me this is my holiland!' The other man who is aso religious, might say the same thing and this is how holiwars start. The men may bring up their children to beleive that the land is concidered sacred in their religion, and so this beliief and the war they have will be passed down from generation to generation, never ending. In reality it has nothing to do with the religion, but everything to do with man's inate greed, as they are both unwilling to share the land.
3 people like this
@kamran12 (5526)
• Pakistan
3 Feb 08
Hello 4ftfingers! "I see religion as the excuse for war, rather than the cause...In reality it has nothing to do with the religion, but everything to do with man's inate greed, as they are both unwilling to share the land." Your opening and closing statements sums it all quite well and quite wisely. I really appreacite your thoughts and insights here!:-) Thanks for your participation!:-)
2 people like this
26 Nov 07
Wars will happen with or without religion; corruption happens with or without religion--mankind is true to his nature either way. What religion does is build empires, and from religion comes no better morals than that of any other corrupt regime. What corrupt religion does that corrupt secular regimes don't do is declare immoral behavior moral by dint of some spiritualty bigger than everybody that ya dassent dis. It is false to claim that religion is the source of any kind of morality. It isn't.
3 people like this
@kamran12 (5526)
• Pakistan
16 Dec 07
Hello ClaraListensprechen! Welcome to mylot and sorry for this late response as I was away for many weeks. Thank you for your addition here but the question in hand is not about morality, if I remember the content and my intention about this discussion correctly. The question is given the war history and the atrocities committed by religious and non-religious governments and institutions, what should be the approach which is not partial, in principle? Hope you will enjoy your stay here!:-)
2 people like this