Personal Morals

The human body can also survive perfectly well eating only plants, but this is a debate for another place. Fruits and vegetables cannot be "abused" and cannot feel pain, therefore it is not the same at all.

Interesting. Plants actually can be abused and do have feelings of sorts. Studies have shown that houseplants raised in a threatening/hostile atmosphere with harsh, discordant sounds do not flourish as well as those raised in a loving environment. I couldn't eat a pet. And if I raised a cow as a pet, I couldn't slaughter it and eat it, because it was a pet. I don't think I could eat somebody else's pet, either. But beef cattle, which are raised in herds and not as pets, are destined for the table. I was nearly a vegetarian when I was single (I had chicken or beef about once a week), but I married into a "carnivorous" family, and so I don't have many viable, affordable options. I know this has probably gotten way off topic, but if you have some vegetarian recipes, especially ones that would appeal to kids, I would love it if you shared them with me.

vegweb.com has a lot of good recipes, and I believe they have a "kid-friendly" section, too. That's where I get most of my recipes from As for the plants have feelings thing, I think it all depends how you define "feelings" and without a brain, they cannot feel pain (at least not the kind we feel) so I do not buy into that "but plants feel pain too, so might as well eat animals!" argument (not saying that's what you were saying, but I hear that a lot.)

I think the ultimate cruelty is not allowing an animal to serve a purpose -- not letting a dog guard, not letting a cat hunt... Not letting a cow....? a pig.....? What purpose do they serve when they are raised for food? Specifically large factory farms?

There are people who have pet pigs lol, but that is besides the point. You used the examples "not letting the dog guard, not letting the cat hunt." Obviously these are instincts these animals have. It is not the instinct of a cow to "be food" so those comparisons are illogical. As for factory farms... actually most animals come from factory farms. "The number of farms has also decreased, and their ownership is more concentrated. In the U.S., four companies produce 81 percent of cows, 73 percent of sheep, 57 percent of pigs and 50 percent of chickens.[26] In 1967, there were one million pig farms in America; as of 2002, there were 114,000,[27] with 80 million pigs (out of 95 million) killed each year on factory farms as of 2002, according to the U.S. National Pork Producers Council.[25] According to the Worldwatch Institute, 74 percent of the world's poultry, 43 percent of beef, and 68 percent of eggs are produced this way.[17]" (I got this from wikipedia.) You said you don't know much about factory farms... I recommend if you are interested to look it up and read about the way animals are treated there. It is not a "case of one ruining it for the whole lot" and if you can believe most of those who work at these kinds of farms have a "healthy respect for keeping things in balance" (that is, respect for the animals' well-being and health) then that is sad. I am not saying there are not "good" farmers out there, but those are unfortunately not the majority.

Cows and pigs are food -- that is their purpose. If they were not food what would they be? They are not suited to be wild animals - and even then they would only be food for something else. Most people would hardly want a 2,000 lb cow for a backyard pet. Beef cattle also graze grass - and help keep wildfires under control, atleast where they are still allowed. Wildfires are still a concern, but areas that have been grazed are easier to contain when there is a wildfire. And what about the byproducts -- where do you think the fertalizer for organic veggies comes from? They have their place, and their purpose -- it isn't pretty, but it is how nature designed us - to eat meat as part of our diet. I don't have much experience or knowledge about "factory farms", but I come from an area where ranching and hunting are ways of life. Ranchers don't mistreat their animals or land in general, because that is how they survive. If the meat is damaged they don't get paid (which is why most ranchers rarely use a cattle prod). If they overgraze their alotments there will be no grass for the next years herd. There will always be one who ruins it for the whole lot, but most of them have a healthy respect for keeping things in balance.

At least she is doing something, but yeah I agree it is strange that she eats meat. It doesn't really make sense to me at all... I am a VERY picky eater. The pickiest I have ever met and there are a lot of things I won't eat, yet I fare just fine on a vegan diet. I actually get more variety being vegan than I ever did eating meat... she sounds like she just likes to eat meat.. I mean, if she really cared about animals/the environment she would at least TRY some new recipes and see if she can start fazing meat out, right?

Or, you know, people need to stop looking to PETA for all animal rights related information. There are tons of great organizations out there, too bad they don't get enough press.

I once met a woman who was protesting fur while wearing leather boots. That's a total hypocrite, or idiot, I don't know which. LOL

That is very hypocritical... Vegetarians who wear leather also get my knickers in a bunch.

Luckily I like you What bothers me is not people who admit to being hypocritical, but people who can't see the connection between "loving animals" and eating meat.

Perspctives - Perhaps I am being misunderstood. I am not implying that if you eat meat you cannot love any animals. Of course (most) people who own pets love their pets and I do not doubt that, but if they say "I love animals" and mean it as, "I love all animals, not just my pets" I can only assume they are implying they love animals used for food as well. Now, if this person also eats meat, then how are they loving the animal they ate? (assuming they did not raise/slaughter it.) You can talk about "other" cultures all day long, but what it comes down to is in today's western society, meat is over consumed and most people are not raising the animals themselves, not to mention most meat does not come from "humanely raised" animals.

I agree that there are farming practices that are involve the inhuman treatment of animals. However, there are numerous farms and farmers who recognize the importance of providing the best quality of life for their animals while they are in their care...for ethical as well as business reasons. We are of the same mind Kenzie...that people can love and care for animals...and still eat meat. The number of cats, dogs, birds, fish that have a wonderful quality of life because of the love of their owners is not invalidated because they include meat in their diet...from my perspective! Raia

Hi again... I am not sure if you are being misunderstood or not...and I am not here to confront who you are, what you think...or what you do. That is your decision to make. I decided to involve myself in this discussion at the suggestion of someone else who had commented originally. If there are misunderstandings...it happens to all of us. I have copied the content from your discussion that might be creating misunderstandings...and here it is:[b]I have now come across a few instances of a vegan/vegetarian telling a meat eater who claims to "love animals" that they are less moral (or rather implied it) because they still eat meat. What do you think about this? Do you think someone who eats animals, but claims to love animals at the same time is being hypocritical, if not "less moral" than someone who loves animals and doesn't eat them? [/b][i][/i][u][/u]From my vantage point...it does come across as a moral judgment...whether that was the intent or not. When I was a vegetarian and animal activist I was on my own soapbox as well. It was only when I moved to a rural farming community and traveled up North and saw the plight of many Natives on Northern Reserves that my eyes were opened to the reality that life is never as black and white as many believe. There are gray, neutral areas that many who are rigid in their belief systems find it difficult to accept. I am all for anyone following their own path...and believing whatever they choose. However, whenever any of us start pointing fingers at others it is bound to create confrontation. Throughout every post I have ever made here I suggest that as long as we agree to disagree within a spirit of respectful dialog the integrity of Mylot will be maintained. In regard to your comments about animal abuses and farm life...in some cases I agree. My hubby and I were city people who moved to a rural community because we felt out of sync with the hectic pace of big city life. We had a lot of ideas about how the farmers abused the land and their animals until we saw for ourselves that many of them do not. These families have often been working the land and raising animals for generations. They have a deep respect for their animals and endeavor to give them the best quality of life they can...because if they do not the quality of their product will be diminished...be it animal, grain or produce. As Winter08 pointed out when she shared her personal experiences growing up. She essentially said...you follow your chosen path...but allow others to do the same...for whatever their reasons with moralizing. I have included a photo of a large pasture filled with contented cattle living a leisurely life that I took earlier today while my hubby and I were driving around back country roads. There are others I have in my files with free range chicken farms and goats and bison in lush green pastures as well. In an ideal world I would love to think that no animal would ever be slaughtered to feed humans...but we are not there yet. Quite candidly, vegetarianism and vegan dietary choices are great for those in a financial position to purchase organic foods...but many (including the Inuits and Native Peoples) could never afford to eat that way...and this why they hunt. I ask you...if there were absolutely no meat available tomorrow...how do you think North American Society would feed itself? The question of meat and how healthy it is has as much to do with the steroids, growth hormones and the previous use of animal by-products in feed than the meat itself in my opinion. My only concern in suggesting a parallel to personal morals and the food people choose to eat is that the larger implications and lifestyle choices are not being factored in. As I said to you in other replies...any radical dietary changes can have adverse affects on the body...and not everyone thrives on vegan/vegetarian diets. All I have been suggesting is that proactive health involves balance and an ability to make informed choices about what is right for anyone's body...at any stage in life. I am a professional writer but my husband and I are also life coaches and group leaders in the health and wellness friend...and have been since 1990. We work in cooperation with client's nutritionists, physicians, psychiatrists and anyone else on their healing team. The information I have offered here is not about making you...or anyone else 'wrong.' All I have been doing throughout my replies to anyone in this discussion is presenting another...perspective. I will congratulate you on posting a very interesting discussion...and whether we agree or not...it sure has people thinking and chatting...and that is what we do here. So I say...good for you. I look forward to chatting with you again perhaps on something we see similarly...or not! (smiles) Raia

Well, do lions, dogs, pandas, or deer have morals? No. Are we carnivores? No. Do we (in general) NEED meat to survive? No. Do carnivores? Yes.

There's nothing in meat that you can't get from plants/other sources (besides cholesterol ) but since you don't know what your mother was lacking, well then... I dunno lol. Just because a doctor recommends more meat, doesn't mean they couldn't have recommended a different source. Not saying meat isn't the BEST way to get whatever it was she needed (probably iron?) but I doubt it was the only way. Anyway, lots of big animals are herbivores... cows, horses, rhinos (!), pandas, moose, deer, zebras, goats, pigs, ELEPHANTS!... It reminds me of a quote from Henry David Thoreau: "One farmer says to me, 'You cannot live on vegetable food solely, for it furnishes nothing to make the bones with;' and so he religiously devotes a part of his day to supplying himself with the raw material of bones; walking all the while he talks behind his oxen, which, with vegetable-made bones, jerk him and his lumbering plow along in spite of every obstacle."

@wooitsmolly....I do respect your choice to live vegan. My brother in law and his extended family have made the same choice. I'd like to ask you why you think the human is the only animal with a moral code, a standard of conduct? I'm asking because I really am interested in why you think that. Me, I think the beasties have as much morality as we do. They hunt to feed and it is not a moral issue. It is a survival issue no right or wrong involved in the process. The choice to eat vegan is great and I do admire people who do it because they have a respect and love of animals but I don't think they have made a more moral decision than the guy eating the hamburger. Course as I already stated I do feel a wee bit hypocritical for buying my nicely plucked chicken from Kroger's when I know d*mn well I would never be able to kill a chicken so maybe I'm full of cr*p.

Hi Perspectives, I am quite honestly dumbfounded at the statements that people can make, apparently with all seriousness, presumably inculcated from the effect of years of endlessly repeated commercially driven propaganda. For example - "Fruits and vegetables do not supply any sources of proteins and they are the building blocks of the body..." Hmmm. This interests me... So just out of curiosity, let's ask all the BIGGEST animals on the planet what sort of foods THEY prefer to eat. One would assume that THEIR enormous bodies are composed of at least SIMILAR building blocks to our own, if not the same. So now I have to wonder (I wonder, I wonder, I wonder) just how they accomplish the feat of growing those enormous bodies, when "Fruits and vegetables do not supply any sources of proteins and they are the building blocks of the body..."? And without even considering the largest animals, what about such human-scaled creatures as Orangutans, who produce abundantly healthy bodies with superhuman strength on a diet consisting of just fruit and vegetables? One might hope against hope that some pennies might be dropping in the background. I guess it's understood that humans are a herding species, and that they inherently strive to align their views with what is thought to be the consensus - and relentless propaganda, endlessly repeated day after day throughout the years, is a powerful proxy indeed for the consensus. So it's understandable that if a particular line is repeated often enough, eventually people will start to believe it, even if it's not actually true. But despite having a generally open mind, I still occasionally find myself gobsmacked by the twilight-zonish logic expressed by otherwise intelligent people who seem to have succumbed to the mainstream mantra on one subject or another. Yes, fruit and vegetables DO contain protein - more than sufficient for human dietary requirements, in fact. Unless one swallows the industry-sponsored "recommended intake" of nutrients which is tailored to what the beef, wheat and dairy industries provide, and NOT what we actually "need". I'd suggest that anyone having trouble accommodating this view, might find it helpful to refer to the comparatively larger bulk of an Elephant (or maybe a Mastodon, or a Mammoth, or a Brachiosaurus, just to press the point) and consider again what they use to build these massive bodily frames. Or just reflect once more on the darling face of a baby Orangutan, who will grow into a hairy adult as large or larger than a human, and considerably stronger to boot, on a diet of just fruit and vegetables. As for supplements, the principle reason that people in Western societies need nutritional supplements at all is because the natural bounty of the Mother Earth has been thoroughly poisoned and drained by the short-sighted wisdom of profit-driven Western agricultural methods. This direction, however, diverges from the intent of wooitsmolly's discussion (and I'm a touchy-feely kinda guy). So I'm going to just accept that people are people, and people see what they want to see. But I will say in PETA's defence that they love their animals (and they really, REALLY do!) at least as much as a pedophile loves a child.

Thank you, Dodo.

Sorry dodoguy...those who do not eat meat often end up with B12 deficiencies that lead to irreversible neurological damage without awareness that it is occurring...until it is too late. The law of predation (predator and prey)exists on every level of the food chain. What would happen if there were no supplements available? The reality is without supplements individuals on vegan and vegetarian diets can end up with health problems because their bodies do not receive adequate nutrients. Fruits and vegetables do not supply any sources of proteins and they are the building blocks of the body. Check out other aspects of Peta...some of their members subscribe to a belief that there should be a genocide of all cattle...because of their impact on the environment. Yes, they REALLY love all the animals...that is contrary to what I have researched about them. So on this discussion I think we will have to agree to disagree. Raia

yea I can..and I agree that its somewhat flawed if you look at it black and white but I dont look at things that way. Never have never will...Its that simple for me ya know...Yes I love all living things BUT I love to eat meat too...i think for me its the seperation factor really....We let a couple of guys hunt on our land (deer) BUT we also know that its unfortunately necessary...NOW..could I go hunting WITH THEM and eat the catch? NO....but because I'm seperated from the hunt I can seperate my love for the animal and my love for the meat...I love cows...I think cows are cool as all fk actually LOL BUT would I ever turn down a thick juicy steak? HELL NO! BUT if I were there watching the cow get slaughtered I'm sure there is no way I could put it in my mouth...

"BUT if I were there watching the cow get slaughtered I'm sure there is no way I could put it in my mouth..." Here is the most odious kind of hypocricy, those that eat meat yet if confronted by the slaughter are squeamish. That are happy to eat meat if it is urbanely packaged to remove the connection between it an a living being. That would not kill but are happy to pay, in the price of the meat they buy, someone to do the dirty work for them. This, I find, the the most loathsome and disgusting of attitudes. all the best urban

So.... you can watch a deer in the forest and "love" it and then if someone hunts it that night and feeds it to you, you still believe you are "loving" that animal? Hey, I get what you are saying and all (I guess, kind of?), but the logic is so flawed it makes my head spin. I mean, you "don't agree" with hunting, but would eat a hunted animal...? LOL what? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense... Sooo I will just say that I love you.

Urban - WHEN DID I QUESTION ANYONE'S MORALS? Please point it out to me because I don't remember doing so. Now, of course I did say I think it is hypocritical to say you love animals and then eat meat (when I say animals, I mean those beyond just "pets") but I fail to see how that is questioning anyone's "MORALS"

Well at least we agree on this point! (smiles) Raia

HAHAHAHA! Well spoke urb! Too bad you have so many 'loathsome and disgusting' attitudes that I find odious, otherwise we could be good friends. Hehehehehe.

"I fail to see HOW a vegetarian can hold it over anyone's head that they don't eat meat? I think there is a communication/comprehension problem that happens often. A vegetarian will say, "I don't eat meat because I think it is wrong the way animals are treated and I'd rather not kill them" or whatever... and it's almost as if people hear instead, "I don't eat animals because I am a good person who doesn't MURDER and anyone who eats animals is obviously a sick person with no morals!" and then this other person gets defensive thinking they are being judged, and then the vegetarian gets defensive because they feel attacked... and then everyone hates each other and nobody LISTENS." Are you familiar with the phrase "Meat is Murder"? It's used by vegetarians or vegans with more...intolerant views (quite common with PETA members, too). I wasn't implying that all vegetarians do this, but there are some who do. In fact, holding it over someone's head that they are a hypocrite for saying they love animals but still eat them is just another way of lording it over someone that they are a vegetarian, because it implies that, as a vegetarian, you are not a hypocrite because you don't eat meat. I understand the desire to refrain from meat because they don't like killing animals. While I am not a vegetarian, I refrain from eating the meat of baby animals because I find the idea of killing or eating baby animals disgusting. I do not, however, tell people that it is wrong to eat baby animals. Similarly, I do not appreciate being told by others that it is wrong to eat meat, which is what has happened to me in a couple of my conversations with vegans or vegetarians. In retrospect, however, I think it's vegans that have this attitude more than plain vegetarians.

I fail to see HOW a vegetarian can hold it over anyone's head that they don't eat meat? I think there is a communication/comprehension problem that happens often. A vegetarian will say, "I don't eat meat because I think it is wrong the way animals are treated and I'd rather not kill them" or whatever... and it's almost as if people hear instead, "I don't eat animals because I am a good person who doesn't MURDER and anyone who eats animals is obviously a sick person with no morals!" and then this other person gets defensive thinking they are being judged, and then the vegetarian gets defensive because they feel attacked... and then everyone hates each other and nobody LISTENS.

Hi Latrivia , Interesting angle you've introduced here - the relativity of an animal's maturity to the morality of eating it. It occurs to me that crocodiles will eat anything - ANYTHING - except a baby hippo, because big momma's never too far away, and let's face it, crocodiles aren't completely stupid. But they DO live an awfully long time. And they eat meat - even baby meat. And they're evil - thoroughly wicked, in fact, you can see it in their eyes. Except when they cry, then you just want to hold their little hand and comfort them. BUT I digress. The point is, the question of morality seems to be tied up with the notion of good and bad, and as far as animals are concerned, with an acknowledgment of their right to life. So it probably IS bad to deliberately take the life of an innocent creature so early in it's material experience, when there's really no need beyond the recipient's gratification. It might be a different matter if some people were starving and there was nothing left to chew on but a cute little baby lamb. To be honest, I'd probably starve rather than hurt the lamb. And we know that mothers will go to extreme lengths, and even die, to let their children live. There's something about a young life that IMO has more claim to living than one that's seen the ropes and been around the racetrack a few times. Of course, that's just a subjective view, but it does argue that the morality of killing animals for food isn't just black and white - it's more like a multi-dimensional, rocky landscape dotted with seemingly bottomless black pits of carnivorous emptiness, all illuminated by the brilliant white spark of life up above. Sounds scary.

I saw this discussion and have been reading other responses before adding mine. Partly because of the 'flavor' of the discussion by the poster. I was reading comments and replies and in my view you should get the best response on it. I expected to read the reply when I noticed that you did not seem to warrant one. That gives me reason to pause...too much logic perhaps? Your personal experiences growing up are akin to what I have learned about farming and hunting practices in the small rural community we moved to in 1994. I was raised a city girl...and never gave much thought about farming...or hunting but have come to see things through similar eyes to yours since living here. As I have progressed through life I have had many consciousness raising experiences. I work in the health and wellness field and have had discussions with vegan and vegetarians about the moral issue of killing animals for food. I really respect how well presented your ideas are...particularly the following ones: The choice to eat meat or not, to love animals or not, should not be classified as moral. It is not a right-or-wrong issue. It is a choice issue.[i][/i] What you stated about the need your father had to provide for his family is similar to people on Native Reserves who would not be able to survive if they did not hunt. Yet many Native people have a very honoring approach to each kill. They thank the spirit of the animal for the gift they have provided. So yes Winter 08 I am in total agreement with your perspective...and I wanted to say I value your input...even if the poster does not have the courtesy to reply..for whatever her reasons. Raia

It is irrelevant whether our ancestors ate meat or not, as we are at a place now where we do not have to (please keep in my mind I am not suggesting everyone has the ability or means to be vegetarian, but in general.) Could you be suggesting that if we fazed out our meat eating and eventually stopped killing animals for food that humans would be overrun by animals? I don't believe an animal should be esteemed higher than a human, either. But I don't think humans need to esteem themselves so high that they become cruel and greedy and lose sight of the fact that these are animals with feelings and needs, just like human animals.

Fazing out meat... not just setting all farm animals free at one moment... when the world miraculously goes vegan LOL! What a thought... What happened to logic? Even if people cut out some or half of their meat consumption, so many less animals would be needed... one can only presume there would be less mistreatment... I mean, look at those numbers. Do we NEED this much meat? Well, we all know we don't. So.......

I really would like to spend some time alone with each person that treats those animals cruelly. An eye for an eye kind of thing. There is NO need for cruelty. Is goes back to that respect thing. PS. Glad you enjoyed my scenario.

But how do you separate the cow in the field from the cow on your plate?

Right. And that is where we differ because I cannot separate the cow in the field that I find beautiful from the cow on a plate. I have a hard time dealing with the fact that most people don't care about those animals because they never deal with them personally. I am not emotionally connected to any children, but when I hear of one being murdered it upsets me, and I wouldn't murder one myself.

Do you really want to know the truth? I'm not kidding now. I'm not emotionally involved with the cow on my plate. I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but I'm just not emotionally involved.

What's your point?

My point is, I don't believe just because someone loves animals but they eat meat as well doesn't quite put him/her in "hypocritical" or "less mortal" catagory... If that was the case, not all but majority of the people on earth would fall under that catagory for one reason or another, some under the examples listed above...

Oops... I meant different U.S. companies shipping jobs out to different countries... Rarely people keep speed limits but they complain about others breaking laws, even minor traffic ones... People complain about taxes but wonder why roads are crappy when taxes go down... People refuses to give a dollar to a homeless person but wonders why so many people are cold hearted... People let their kids run around restaurants but complain about other people's kids when they get in their way... People say, "you get what you paid for" but turn around & look for cheapest deal possible & wonder why they can't get decent help... Spend some money, may be places you shop might be able to afford a decent help... People look for free stuff, way to cut corners, then call others "cheap scape"... Why do people drive in a parkway & park in a driveway? When somethings goes wrong due to their fault, it's a mistake... If someone else makes a mistake, they're looking to get paid or somebody has to pay for their mistake... Again, just a thought... Figured I'd put some more on since I was on it...

You're right, it is a different topic, and you are wrong about the difficulty.

Whenever people are so dogmatic and telling others that their exalted opinions are superior to another...there is bound to be conflict. How about respecting other people's views...even if you disagree with them? Who are you to tell others that they are wrong..and you are right? You are entitled to your views...but so is everyone else. You mentioned that Peta is so pro animal rights in one of your replies. Do you know that some of their members believe in the genocide of cattle because of the impact they BELIEVE they are having on the environment? And they have the right to call themselves animal rights activists? There are wing nuts in every organization...and not everyone is working for the common good...when people take the time to investigate. That is what I do for a living...I am a journalist...and it is my job to research information and impart it in a neutral...non-judgmental way and allow the readership to form their own opinions. Cutepenguin is correct...the best source of complete proteins comes from meat. Vegans and vegetarians are at risk of developing B12 deficiencies if they do not supplement...and many are unaware of that FACT. Check it our for yourself. Putting a child on a vegan or vegetarian diet could lead to irreversible neurological damage. So putting information out there that is invalid...AND calling it a moral issue on top of it is something I do not agree with. However...it is your choice to do so...and I respect that whether I agree or not. This is a discussion forum and I think it is incumbent upon all of us to share ideas in a respectful way that honors differences. Raia

Children do not need meat to be healthy, but that is another discussion.

This discussion has turned into a mess. I am finding myself feeling attacked for things I never said! Kind of frustrating... and most people are not even staying on the topic at all. The topic was never, "is it okay to eat meat?" only, "do you think people who say they love animals are being hypocritical if they eat them?" LOL. That's all! You're right about the over consumption. Obviously with the number of overweight and obese people today... meat has a lot to do with it. We are not "made" to eat meat at every meal... even if you are going by the traditional food pyramid you should only be eating a few ounces a day... not per meal!

We are all hypocrites, isegor. I have my opinions, just like everyone else in this discussion does. I accept everyone's beliefs, but that does not mean I have to agree with them