Ignorant People!!

OK, let's try to avoid talking about whether the war was right or wrong. Let's not talk about whether Bush deliberately misled the people or whether he was just acting on the best interest that he had. Let's just stick with what it means to be an American. Although I am not an American citizen (had green card, chose not to renew in 2000), I believe that one of the greatest things about the USA is the fact that this is one country that allows, no grants every individual the right to be themselves. As long as you don't go around trying to bomb people, the USA allows you to do what you want to do. If you chose to be a bum, that's your choice. If you chose to work hard and succeed, then that's your choice. America was founded by people who wanted to live in a country where a ruler had to accept that some people would think he was a swell guy but others would dislike him and even ridicule him, and he's still have to defend them. If I am not wrong, the American constitution specifically states that both the Congress and President are 'elected' by the people and not 'anointed' by GOD. So, how the heck did we end up in a situation where an American President would end up telling the world, "You are either FOR US or AGAINST US." I'm sorry but there is something wrong when the nation that was founded on the principle that everyone has the right to pursue happiness starts trying to assert that they have a monopoly on truth. Back in the old days, the USA merely persuaded people that they were better than the USSR. They were and so, they won the Cold War. Now, the USA insist that it's our way or the high way, and guess what, the USA gets caught behaving exactly like the people they were trying to stop behaving badly. Like I said, let's leave the actual events taking place aside, and look at what happened in the world ever since the Bush Administration decided the only truth was their version of it. America has moved from being THE most respected nation in the world to being perceived as a hypocrite. How did a nation that had so much good will from the rest of the world end up being regarded as a rogue nation? I think the Bush administration needs to be held account for that. Madaline Albright, former Secretary of State remarked that when US envoys used to talk about human rights to the Chinese, they would angry and storm out of the room. These days, the Chinese smile and nod politely and then remind America that the land of Abu Gharib and Guantanamo Bay has lost the right to talk about human rights. - See what insisting that your version of the truth is the only one can do to your credibility?

Very well put.

You are right Cbreeze. I hope that if there is another situation we do not jump off the bridge because its a long fall.

Yeah just seems like Republicans are saying you either support the war or you are not american. Or you support the surge we just did or you are wrong because it worked. Well of corse it worked...hello 30000 troops...duh. You are right. Everyone thinks we should start making an exit stratagy. That is all Obama is saying. Thank you for your thoughtful comment

I value American lives over the need to say "we won" or "we were right".

You are correct. But it would be nice to say this time we lost 4000 kids but at least we won the war. Makes it sound like we at least did it for a reson this time. thnks

Wow you really need to brush up on your knowledge. First off, we weren't humiliated in this war. Running home without cleaning things up would have been humiliating. Second, Obama has repeatedly said 16 months. Just so you know, 2 years is 24 months. If he didn't want to set a specific date then why has he said 16 months over and over again while saying exactly how many brigades he would bring home each month? George Bush did not declare Mission Accomplished on a plane, it was on an aircraft carrier. Next time please study a bit. It's just too easy to point out how little you know about the war or your own candidate. If you can't tell the difference between a plane and an aircraft carrier in a video that's been replayed over and over again, it's going to be hard to convince anyone you know what you're talking about.

Well i think that it is funny how you support a canadate that has repeatedly been wrong. A canadate tht has supported every single one of George Bush's failed policies. The fact is that is does not matter where he was standing when he said the "Mission Accomplished". The fact is he lied. I think he was in NEVER NEVER LAND. As far as Obama saying we need to have an exit stratagy and stting dates, well he has set dates for about 2 years from now. He has repeatedly said that these dates are NOT set in stone. That it would be based on how things are going at the time. Iraq says that they can handle there own security now. So what are we doing we should be in Afganistan. Our allies think that Iraq thiks that. To use such petty examples of making your point only proves that you are about as incompatent as your canadate. McCain is trying to win this war on how much he knows about the war. But he is the one that can not remember what he said just the day before. CBS refused to show McCains statement becasue he said that the surge began the Anbar awakening. That is such a lie. He claims to have expert knowlege of the surge. If you watch it they aired the question but edited in an answer to a completely different question. The awakeing started in September of 2006 And if you want I can give sites to visit supporting this. He claims to be an expert at foreign ploicy but he has repeatedly mentioned Czechoslvakia. Czechoslavakia has not exsited for 15 years. He has even visited there twice since then. Met with both leaders. I think tht you need to get your facts strait my friend. I know who I am voting for do you??

The Dems did say they want out, but not for 2 years and this is only if we are finished is what Obama said. He even said there would be no specific date either. I did not say any one person said support the war or you are not American. What I meant is that McCain and his cronies act as if there is only one way to the finish line. When in fact there are many different ways. Just because someone does not support a surge does not mean that he thinks it was going to fail. Just because the surge slowed violence does not mean we are any closer to our long term goal in establishing a democratic gov. for Iraq.

"It does'nt matter if we lost 100 soldiers over there that is 100 too many." You do realize that this is precisely the logic that allowed Hitler to run unchecked in Europe don't you? Nobody wanted a war. Nobody wanted their soldiers to die. It was just so much easier for countries to step back and let him run amok hoping that he'd just stop after Poland, Sudetenland, Czechoslavakia, Lithuania, France, etc. This country has a volunteer military. That means the men and women overseas fighting for our country chose their course knowing full well what they risked. Of course I am speaking about the present day as things were different when the draft was in place. The simple fact is, people die in war. Avoiding war to avoid casualties can easily leave you backed against the wall the way the British were during WWII.

Your right, we can't with out a win and vietnam should have proved this, THSI is the lesson we need to take home from that war not the whole cliche' quagmireline. And yes, I agrea with you again, we are in a position to start shifting. Right now there is an operation involving 50,000 some odd iraqi forces in a province the size of new jersey that is being run ENTIRELY by the Iraqi military and it is meeting with success. That being said, to clap our hands together and say "ok, pack it up, lets go", would be premature and foolish. I also agrea, 100, is too many, ONE is too many, but it is war. war is ugly. It is big, noisy and violent, people die and things get broken, perhaps we should not have gone there in the first place, but again, thats a mute point now and one for the historians to argue and it is not the scope of this thread. Lets put it in perspective though, as wars go this was a pretty good one, look at the loss and cost of past wars, we got off to a rocky start with this one but the turn around has been nothing short of miraculous and that is due not only to the resolve of the Iraqi people but to the young men and women on the ground over there who need and deserve our support in their effort.

I do not think we can come home with out a win. But just becasue we have not won yet does not mean we are not getting close enough to start and exit stratagy. It does'nt matter if we lost 100 soldiers over there that is 100 too many.

"If Iraq is just a barren land I think no country no country not even the US would be willing to spend 12 billion dollars and 30,000 troops" That sounds logical, but then why are we wasting money elsewhere? Why did we waste money and troops in a barren wasteland like Somalia? They aren't providing us with oil. Why did Clinton send troops into Bosnia? We get nothing from them. Why are we giving so much money to the Palestinians? Not only do we get nothing in return, they hate us and cheered during the 9-11 attacks. I could provide a list of several other wastelands that we throw money at, but hopefully you get my point. By the way, why hasn't that Iraqi oil come our way? I'm still waiting for that hose that leads directly from Iraq to the gas pumps here in the US.

Ok, this one is getting really tired. If it was about "oil" then why didnt we just start backing up the tankers and loading up when Saddam's government fell? Why did the oil contracts go to countries other than the U.S.?why am I paying 4 bucks a gallon for gas? For the love of pete, PLEASE get off that cliche'. Second, it was 4000, NOT 30,000 troups lost.

Oh for sure. It's all about Bush's investments in foreign oil. Has been since his father was in office.

That is something I have not herd. thank you

You are correct, they are doing something I never did and I totally have the up most respect for them. I could never dream about the stuff they have seen. Thank You!

Annie, if he had said, "I was wrong" I would perhaps have respected him a little more. that was one of the things that eroded my respect for the current administration, instead of admitting mistakes and course correcting on the spot, they plodded along to save face. If right at the beginning of the war, he had fired that bafoon rumsfeld and done what the top military minds had said,......well, you get the idea. Yes, there were other factors in the sucess, of course there were. However, these other factors would not have been possible had we not poured more force in to the mix. In addition, the surge was suggested BECAUSE of the suni uprising that was beginning to look like it was going to happen. It was felt that it would be the perfect combination to suddenly pour in more of our own forces in to assist in it.

A matter of perspective, indeed! If only more people could see it that way, Pro. It's frustrating to have so many discussions that were started with good intentions, at least I know mine are and I'll assume most others' are as well, turn into free-for-all schoolyard brawls. Just as I've always known there are all kinds of people in every race or other ethnic or demographic group the same holds true for political philosophies. There are good and bad, smart and stupid, sane and insane, moral and immoral, compassionate and cold-hearted Democrats and Republicans! Annie

True my friend ...very true.

yeah McCain will probably take his ball and go home. We won't let him play in any reindeer games.

I hope not...we got it wrong 8 years in a row...