When does zero tolerance go too far?

@zoey7879 (3092)
Quincy, Illinois
February 18, 2010 4:08pm CST
Earlier today, I read a story about a 12 year old girl who was arrested for sprawling a smiley face and writing "I love so and so (two of her friends I cant remember their names)" on her desk at school. She was subsequently arrested, and her family obtained legal council. Her New York school has a zero tolerance policy against vandalism. I was rather surprised at the large amount of readers who commented that having her arrested was "Going too far", that people have "forgotten what it is to be a kid", and even "like you never did anything wrong when you were a kid". I don't necessarily believe that the punishment fits the crime, but I'm certain that at the age of 12, this girl probably knew better than to write on stuff that didn't belong to her and that she could get into trouble. This girl complained about the embarrassment of getting arrested in the middle of class time where her friends could see.I was appalled to hear that her family was seeking legal council. She wrote on something that didn't belong to her and got caught. Boohoo! - So sad! Would thousands of people been writing in to a national news station if she had done this to THEIR coffee tables or the sides of their houses? Certainly not! So, what's the difference.... the fact that a house is a bigger canvas? Maybe they would argue this simply because it wasn't their own property and want to excuse her behavior to rationalize their own misbehavior as youngsters? Again, I don't believe that the punishment fit the crime... that maybe being forced to wash all the graffiti in the restrooms and desks in the classroom might have been a more appropriate response, I FULLY believe that she did break the law and that the school was well within their legal rights to take action against her. Do you think that the school went to far or that they were within reason? Do you feel that her parents are absurd for hiring an attorney? (I know that I do!) What do you feel about zero tolerance policies in our schools?
6 people like this
12 responses
dreamr802
@dreamr802 (985)
• United States
18 Feb 10
I think it was a very good idea for the family to retain a lawyer...an arrest could stay with her forever and she's only 12!!!! Yes she shouldn't be writing on desks, but honestly I remember somewhat doodling on my desks lol, but it was usually with pencil so it will rub right off...Maybe instead of arresting her, make her stay for a detention and have her clean off the desks in that classroom...but it is definitely WAY overboard to have her arrested. It's not like she was putting graffiti on the school walls with spray paint or anything like that. I definitely think that school took the 0 tolerance too far. I can actually see the parents suing the school and actually winning a lawsuit because that is just too over the top.
2 people like this
Chalea Hutchinson
@zoey7879 (3092)
• Quincy, Illinois
19 Feb 10
So you're almost saying had she done it with paint, it's okay? I'm really not sure how the parents will win a lawsuit.. She broke the rules which did, no matter how petty, constitute a violation of the law, and got arrested. Do I necessarily agree with it.. Nah. Do the crime, pay the time.
Chalea Hutchinson
@zoey7879 (3092)
• Quincy, Illinois
19 Feb 10
In most, if not all states in the US, juvenile records or sealed and/or can be expunged. I can't see the school winning a lawsuit. She defaced something that did not belong to her, which is a prosecutable offense. Do I see a judge giving her hard time? LOL.. Nah. Do I see a judge giving her community service or making her help clean up at her school? I can definitely see that.
kaylayoe
@kaylayoe (293)
• United States
18 Feb 10
Wow, that is way to harsh a punishment for writing on a desk! At my school you get a 15 minute detention after school while cleaning desks in that classroom. That's a reasonable punishment for what she did. Especially seeing as she's twelve! I can understand maybe, MAYBE, if your an 18 year old writing on desk at school but a twelve year old being arrested? That's just stupid. I completely disagree.
1 person likes this
lingli_78
@lingli_78 (12822)
• Australia
19 Feb 10
i think arresting a 12 years old girl just because of some scribbles is a bit too much... the school can definitely impose other punishments for her without having to involve the police such as detention... anyway, she doesn't commit any crime or do anything that endangered other people's lives... the school is pushing its zero tolerance policies a bit too much here in my opinion... take care and have a nice day...
Chalea Hutchinson
@zoey7879 (3092)
• Quincy, Illinois
19 Feb 10
To deface or destruct the property of other people *is* a crime.
scarlet_woman
@scarlet_woman (23463)
• United States
19 Feb 10
that's going too far.when i was in school,the most you got for that is having to stay after and scrub it off.there's a big difference between doodling on your desk and marking up a wall.
scarlet_woman
@scarlet_woman (23463)
• United States
19 Feb 10
it goes without saying she shouldn't be doing either. but i'm talking pen/pencil vs spray paint graffiti. pen/pencil can be taken off with 409 as you said (except for maybe magic marker). if were one of those old wooden desks,then it might be permanent.but kids usually carved directly into those.. a criminal charge is possibly going to make her do more or worse. they should make her clean it herself since she did it,and hand out suspensions/bill for cleaning if she does it again. the parents get a bill unless she's totally oblivious i bet it'll be stopped.
Chalea Hutchinson
@zoey7879 (3092)
• Quincy, Illinois
19 Feb 10
Why is there a difference? Neither the desk nor the wall belong to her. Both can be cleaned with a graffiti remover (or heck, even 409 cleaner!). Writing on either/both a desk or the wall is against school policies. Writing on either/both a desk or a wall helps deface the property. Is it okay if she writes on your coffee table? How about the outside wall of your home? Same picture: Different canvas.
1 person likes this
Chalea Hutchinson
@zoey7879 (3092)
• Quincy, Illinois
19 Feb 10
Yes. Unfortunately the article didn't specify whether it was simply magic marker or permanent marker. Most desk tops are laminated and magic marker easily wipes off with the swipe of a palm, if it even dries at all. That being said, I'm apt to believe that it was permanent marker. If a criminal charge makes her do more or worse, than this girl has some problems beyond scribbling on a desk. It then becomes apparent that she has an issue with obeying rules. If she was/ends up being fined, her parents of course will have to pay that, along with any probation fees, and possibly a small restitution that is incrued as a result. I can't tell you how many detentions that I served for not doing my homework without ever caring. Losing an hour after school? Big deal. The swat of my mother's hands across my 11 year old rear end - Lifelong lasting impression and embarassment!
1 person likes this
kiran8
@kiran8 (15348)
• Mangalore, India
23 Feb 10
Hi zoey, I was a counsellor at a school here in Mangalore.From my experience with the teenagers and wayward students , my own feeling is that the school went too far...I feel that having zero tolerance policies is not going to help the teenagers who are at a very vulnerable age and need to be gently guided in certain matters.The girl could have been made to realise her mistake and it always helps to get the parents to take part in these matters, after all they do have some responsibility too..the best approach , in my opinion would have been what you suggested, to do some social work , which makes her realise that she has been irresponsible and that she cannot get away doing such things in the future...Here the parents probably had no choice since the school was hasty in their action, getting the girl arrested. They dont seem to have realised that this action of their will damage the girl's entire personality and her self esteem. I feel that the school has been even more irresponsible than the girl was...At least in her case it was her age and inexperience and a general lack of consideration, whereas the school authorities were being very high handed..
portisray
@portisray (503)
• Philippines
24 Feb 10
Well said Kiran8!!! It feels great that someone here in mylot who has the experience with teenagers and wayward students... and that your opinion is one of the best like Sid...
portisray
@portisray (503)
• Philippines
19 Feb 10
UUuuuuhhhh!!! That is so very embarrassing! Getting arrested in the middle of the class because of vandalizing? That is way too exaggerated! I think that is the right word for it... zero tolerance my a**! She's 12 years old and not 18 yo. I think her parents should sue the school for doing that...
Chalea Hutchinson
@zoey7879 (3092)
• Quincy, Illinois
19 Feb 10
Suing the school for what.. Exercising their legal rights? It might not be fair, but when is the world ever? If someone wrote all over the side of your car or home I'm sure that you would be filing a police report for the damages. Same situation. Same marker; just a bigger canvas.
Chalea Hutchinson
@zoey7879 (3092)
• Quincy, Illinois
19 Feb 10
At 12, it's not exaggerating. My daughter learned not to write on things that don't belong to her years ago, and she's 8. When I was 12, and had this happened to me, getting arrested would be the least of my worries by the time I got home. I'd be more afraid of the punishment my parents whipped out than I would be of getting handcuffed in front of my friends.
sid556
@sid556 (30959)
• United States
19 Feb 10
Anyone who gets arrested has the right to and should obtain legal council. If they wanted the situation handled outside of a court then the school should have called the parents in before arresting the girl. Good lord, murderers even get legal council!!
deebomb
@deebomb (15304)
• United States
18 Feb 10
The school did go to far when they had the girl arrested for writing on her desk. I think that zero is necessary but it needs to be used with some discretion. At most she should have been sent to the office and possible had to clean graffetti from the girls bathroom.Sending in the police for writing on a desk with a pencil and arresting a 5 year old for having a 5 year old cuffed and sent to a sent psych ward after throwing a fit in his kindergarten is just plain going too far. We had a 12 year expelled some years ago for taking a plastic knife to school to cut up a banana. He had just gotten braces put on.
Chalea Hutchinson
@zoey7879 (3092)
• Quincy, Illinois
19 Feb 10
Wow that is extreme. Something similar happened to a friend. He had broken his hand a couple of weeks before the school year started. The first week of school, another boy started a fist fight with him and my friend hit the other kid in response to being hit. Due to ZT policies, my friend was arrested for assault with a deadly weapon and expelled from school due to weapons - They were considering the cast on his arm a weapon.
TheRealDawn
@dawnald (85146)
• Shingle Springs, California
19 Feb 10
I think that detention or being putting on clean up duty or some such thing would have been way more appropriate than having the girl arrested. I don't think her parents were too extreme for consulting an attorney. Now if they're suing the school district or something, that may be too extreme.
cyrus123
@cyrus123 (6363)
• United States
19 Feb 10
I feel like having the child arrested was going a little too far, myself. I think the teacher should have gotten on to her and sent her to the office. There, the principal could have straightened her out. That's the way it was when I was in school. I know times have changed, though. I also think the parents went a little too far in hiring an attorney. I must admit that I wrote on my desk in school one time. I never did get caught by the teacher, though. Another student saw me and told me to quit. I know this is no excuse but there was all kinds of graffitti written all over all of the desks, anyway. The boy who caught me doing this was kind of a smart aleck, anyway. I did quit. However, he was kind of hateful about it. It wasn't what he said but the way he said it. If he had been a little more tactful about it, I might have taken it a different way. Kathy.
cbjones
@cbjones (1147)
• United States
19 Feb 10
People who come up with rules like this don't comprehend a simple fact. Kids don't know what the heck zero tolerance is. They think that if they do something wrong, it can be corrected by an adult, and it'll be okay at the end of the day. Zero tolerance is just another way of saying "I haven't had my coffee yet." Zero tolerance was invented by someone with an end of the world is nigh mentality. Oh my, we are all doomed because someone made a mistake! nothing cn ever go right ever again, and it's all your fault. Why would you do such a thing? What has gotten into your head that would make anyone do something like this? oh my gosh... He's a witch! Burn him!!!!!! I haven't been chased by villagers with pitchforks, but I've had to deal with an unfair punishment under a Zero tolerance regime at a school. I wanted to sy that it didn't apply to me, seeing I was not aware of a panel to stop this asinine rule from being implanted. I doubt my retort would have been tolerated either.
Chalea Hutchinson
@zoey7879 (3092)
• Quincy, Illinois
19 Feb 10
At the age of twelve, if you don't understand what the word zero and what the word tolerance is, when it IS highlighted in the school hand book as well, there's a problem. They haven't turned this into a "end of the world" mentality - Expelling her would have been end of the world mentality. Having her arrested means that she gets punished and because of her age, got to go home. "Oh my, we are all doomed because someone made a mistake! nothing cn ever go right ever again, and it's all your fault." - That does not have any logic in this issue.
laura_lmaxi
@laura_lmaxi (678)
• United States
19 Feb 10
I think she should totally be punished for what she did, clearly the parents didn't teach them to respect others properties, I think it was probably to harsh arrest her. But for sure she has to be punished, we cannot repeat all the time "Oh, they are just kids, let them be kids" Of course kids needs to behave according their age, but destroy other's property is no way kids behaviors, these are warning signs that if we don't pay attention to them, we would have in the future delinquents and insensitive people that doesn't even care about others.
Rhazelle
@Rhazelle (356)
• Canada
19 Feb 10
Man this reminds me of the time this one girl was arrested for doodling in class. Some crazy stuff. My schools actually don't do stupid stuff like this, but I assume it's because I'm in Canada. But yeah I really hate it when, not just schools, when people are stupid in general. It's one thing for the people running the school to take legal action, it's another for everyone involved to actually be so serious and not stop to realize "this is really... really stupid".