Clemency for Murder?
By Jim Bauer
@porwest (96319)
United States
December 17, 2024 4:34pm CST
At what point does killing someone become justified? Certainly, I support self-defense cases and am a proponent of stand your ground and castle law. People not only have the right to defend themselves, but also to protect themselves.
This puts me on the fence a bit regarding New Jersey Gov. Murphy's decision to pardon three women convicted of murdering their abusive boyfriends. I don't know all the details regarding the decision, but I would assume the abuse was clear in their cases.
In that sense, is it murder? Or simply self defense? And while abuse is never okay, what level would constitute justification to kill someone? I mean, if I feel my life is in grave danger, I am allowed to remove that danger, including by killing someone. But who really determines the level of the danger in the case of an abusive relationship?
A few whacks in the face? It's wrong. But is that enough to warrant killing someone? Or is it abusive enough to justify killing someone that lands you in the hospital with serious injuries?
Where does the line get drawn may be another question? Can a woman kill her rapist? Yes. On the spot. But can she go back and kill the rapist a week later? No, that would be murder because the threat to your life no longer was present.
I am not going to have too strong an opinion regarding Murphy's decision to pardon these women considering my stance on abuse. But I do think it leaves more questions than answers, and I am not sure it is necessarily a good idea nor a good precedent to establish.
Or then again, maybe it is. What say you?
12 people like this
10 responses
@NJChicaa (121443)
• United States
17 Dec
I saw the headline yesterday but didn't read the article. I just found one that said that a clemency review board had been set up and "determined that each of them had 'accepted responsibility for their actions' and were setting a positive example to others in their community."
Personally I am far more comfortable with those women being granted clemency as opposed to someone like Kyle Rittenhouse walking around free. His life was never in danger until he had Mommy drive him to another state to insert himself into a situation that had absolutely nothing to do with him.
https://6abc.com/post/nj-gov-phil-murphy-pardons-33-commutes-3-womens-sentences-use-clemency/15664663/
4 people like this
@porwest (96319)
• United States
18 Dec
There is no comparison here between these women and Kyle Rittenhouse. Entirely different matters. Entirely different situations. Rittenhouse's case was also a clear case of self-defense when you review the evidence and watch the videos.
I don't want to debate that, though. I'd rather debate THIS case, and the cases involved with the decision to pardon.
I want to know specific things like what was the level of abuse? When did the murders occur? During a highly abusive moment? Or were these premeditated murders committed in a moment of opportunity? Because I think the answers to those questions change the nature of the crimes and have an impact on how one should feel about the punishment, and more specifically, the pardon.
Your position on the Rittenhouse case DOES concern me, because your opinion on that is not based on the law, but rather it is based on your political bias. That's a problem. I hope any opinion on THIS matter would not be drawn based on the fact that Murphy is a Democrat.
That being said, in order for me to have a stronger opinion, I need to know more about the specific circumstances around these women's cases. If it's clearly murder, for example, the pardons would be problematic to me regardless of what led to them to killing their boyfriends.
1 person likes this
@porwest (96319)
• United States
18 Dec
To me, this poses way too many gray areas to be completely okay with the decision. Abuse can be defined in many ways. For example, my niece was abused by her boyfriend, and while he even choked her a couple of times, I think his bark was worse than his bite and ultimately, he was never an actual threat to her life. So, could she have killed him at this level of abuse? I guess it depends.
Granted, Murphy's decision doesn't change the law and doesn't prevent future convictions. It only pardons past ones in individual, select cases. But it's that precedent thing that worries me.
1 person likes this
@RasmaSandra (82591)
• Daytona Beach, Florida
17 Dec
Taking anyone's life is unforgivable unless you are being physically threatened or it is you or him and your life depends on it,
2 people like this
@moffittjc (122698)
• Gainesville, Florida
18 Dec
Obviously, it is on a case by case basis, but I do think murder can be justified if the person feels the abuse is a threat to their lives. I know they look at multiple factors when deciding these types of cases.
1 person likes this
@moffittjc (122698)
• Gainesville, Florida
21 Dec
@porwest Political motivations aside, I'm sure they look at a wealth of information before deciding if a pardon is appropriate. Now, when it comes to political motivations, well that's an entirely different story!
@andriaperry (118294)
• Anniston, Alabama
18 Dec
Let the bodies hit the floor! Some of these cases are self defense, some aren't.
2 people like this
@kareng (68255)
• United States
18 Dec
@andriaperry The legal system in my oldest daughter's parish is horrible. With her divorce last year, so many things concerning her ex was swept away. At the time of her separation, she and my granddaughter were put under State Protective Services. Sounds good, but it didn't amount to anything. He wasn't required to furnish alternate copies of prescriptions to the court that he claimed was mailed to them. Epic fail. And now the court has said he has completed all requirements in the rehab list they gave him so now he will be eligible for unsupervised visitations with daughter now. I'm pretty sure this wasn't completed because he never completed any rehab programs before. So many things were not allowed to be presented as evidence of him being unfit an parent. It was all sickening and still is. They are divorced now, but he has filed for 50/50 custody of daughter. Praying this isn't granted, but probably will be. So sad.
@LindaOHio (183918)
• United States
18 Dec
Self defense is the key here. Premeditated murder is a whole other ball of wax. Have a good day.
1 person likes this
@LindaOHio (183918)
• United States
20 Dec
@porwest Getting beaten is an offense and needs to be punished; but some of these women are terrified if and when their partner gets out of jail.
1 person likes this
@LindaOHio (183918)
• United States
22 Dec
@porwest Yes, it's definitely a complicated and disturbing issue.
@porwest (96319)
• United States
18 Dec
Right. I mean, at what point did these women kill their abusive boyfriends? In the moment while there was a direct threat against them? Or did they kill at some point because they were abused, in a moment of opportunity? Like, say, when their boyfriend was asleep. Like I said, I don't have the full stories on these women, so it's difficult to have a strong opinion. But there are still a lot of gray areas here, I think.
For me it comes down to the question of, what level is the threat really at? Beating the hell out of someone is not necessarily always deadly. It's wrong. But does it warrant murder?
1 person likes this
@BarBaraPrz (48596)
• St. Catharines, Ontario
18 Dec
Killing someone in self-defence is one thing but killing an attacker a week later is premeditated murder, if they plotted and planned it all out. But what is it if the victim accidentally runs over their assaulter a week or two or months later without knowing that's who it was?
1 person likes this
@kaylachan (75177)
• Daytona Beach, Florida
18 Dec
Murder is yet another shade of grey in this country. I would need full disclosure to be objective to render an opinion. But, like you, I do believe firmly in stand your ground and self-defence. But, also, I kow that can be difficut to prove. Especially if there's no physical or visable trauma.
1 person likes this
@kaylachan (75177)
• Daytona Beach, Florida
21 Dec
@porwest If the person fought back hard enough, there's the slim chance they didn't realize how hard they hit back.Like say, in an effort you knock someone down the stairs, but they die days later from the bleed in their brain when they hit their head? There's a lot to consider here.
@dgobucks226 (36096)
•
22 Dec
In the end juries decide the verdicts and judges the sentence and they found them guilty. There was no reasonable doubt here, and if premeditated it becomes conclusive. Now, the circumstances would merit consideration in the sentencing or justification for the killings. Self-defense definitely is a reasonable argument for murder, but what is determined to be reasonable danger to your life in these cases? In this case, the defense did not establish that fact. So, why Murphy would pardon these women does set a bad precedent. Could Murphy's political affiliation and leftist views had something to do with his decision. Without an explanation from him who knows.
You make very good examples of what justifies killing or not which I agree with. But laws can be twisted and are not always clear cut as we saw with the NY Trump trial travesty. And getting a fair trial in a hostile biased location can be a major factor. And smart defense lawyers can and do use and play upon human emotions to confuse juries and influence decisions.
Who decides what is a justifiable killing? A courtroom of jurors who are human and don't always get it right like they did in the Daniel Penny case. If Penny was convicted for homicide that would be a travesty of justice where a pardon would be justified.
My view is pardons should not be given out like candy as a certain soon to be ex-president is doing. They should be carefully considered on the facts, bias and extenuating circumstances before issuing one!
@RevivedWarrior (3600)
• India
18 Dec
I share the same opinion as you have . If there is an immediate threat , killing the person on spot is self-defence and should not be allowed to be free to go. Killing someone because of a possible threat in future , or because of a grudge or abuse can all be considered as murder. Can the murders be pardoned - well unless there is strong supporting evidence that without the murder there was no way , the party could have survived. I am not sure how and who will get that established. When these is threat to our lives, there is no question fo human rights or ethics of taking a life . I rest my case. Take care!
