Religion - The world's Oldest and Largest Multi-Level Marketing Scam.
By mtbkanata
@mtbkanata (248)
Canada
December 8, 2006 3:26pm CST
Before I get started here... I am talking about Christian and Catholic. I really don't know anything about other religions, so I will start here. Feel free to add to the list.
Characteristics of a MLM Scam:
1.) Each person who is recruited is given incentives to recruit more people.
2.) Pay-to-Play requirements
3.) Payouts are not equal throughout the organization
4.) Only those at the top get rich
Characteristics of Religion:
1.) Each person who is recruited is given incentives to recruit more people.
2.) Pay-to-Play requirements
3.) Payouts are not equal throughout the organization
4.) Only those at the top get rich
Let me explain each of these in detail.
1.) Each person in a religion is compelled to recruit more people.. Join our Church, come to a bible study, I want everyone to know I invited you and saved your soul.. I'm earning points for heaven! Maybe if you recruit enough people, that ticket to heaven will be First Class!
2.) Church expects a 10% cut of your worth... is that gross or net? Probably gross. Why does church need money? Well, they have to funnel it up the channels.. they have up lines to pay... it all ends up somewhere. Let's say there are 200 adults at a church, each gives 10%, and the average salary is $40,000. That's $4,000/year/member, or $800,000. Churches are not taxed.. no income, or property, so that is almost a million profit. Costs are what? A pastor... realistically he cannot make more than the average of his congregation... otherwise he would be doing better off than the people he's taking money from (On average).
3.) Not just money.. Look at the Pope.. does he get a better seat in heaven?
4.) Speaking of the Pope.. how much money does the Vatican really need?
Well.. now's your turn.. please no one line answers, no junk posts... this is serious, treat is that way. I will reply to all answers (which are not garbage).
Try and make your posts meaningful...
41 responses
@volschenkh (1043)
• South Africa
8 Dec 06
The analogy is quite entertaining!!! Interestingly, its also widely suggested that the Vatican bank has investments in business that could be regarded as contrary to church teaching including armaments trading and contraceptive manufacturing however such allegations do not appear to have been substantiated.
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
volschenkh first..
I would love to see where the Vatican puts it's money... anyone have any info.. that would be appreciated!!
Jtexas... if you can dig up some numbers, I'd be more than happy to look them over. I'm sure they do spend money to further recruit more people.. that's the point... recruit more, advance up the chain.
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
Wow.. that's pretty crazy... I mean yeah, you think a church would 'give' money, not invest it for profit in a mall.. I wonder what their side was... they were making more money for god? I guess god wanted a new Lexus this year... ;)
@aholtz (106)
• United States
9 Dec 06
I cannot beleive you made a comparision to church and a mlm program. My advise to you is read your bible and stay away from the Catholic church. As far as giving money to the church God commands us to give back 10 percent of what he gives us to spread his word. If you go to a church and they are not preaching and teaching from the bible, it more than likely is the way you desribe it in your post. That a church is a business. A good bible teaching church is not greedy and will teach you the way God wants you to live.
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
11 Dec 06
Do you have a link to your churches finances? I think it would be an interesting read.
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
I can believe I did it.. it's a direct comparison, and it's not that far fetched...
I can't read my bible, since I don't have one. Why would god command 10%? How was that number reached? Does that number change over time to include inflation? Is that number before taxes? What about countries which have higher taxes?
You can see where I am going here.
I don't go to a church, I keep my money for me. Then I can choose if I want to give to charity, or not. I am not compelled to further my beliefs, or do anything... I have no one to impress.
Does your church release information on their finances?
@buenavida (9984)
• Sweden
8 Dec 06
If you compare the firs Christians:
They had no expensive churces, there were no priest or other leaders that got a salary.
Every gift that was given was made from their hearts, no control how much they gave.
Everyone worked for their living, even if they had great responibility in the congregation or were missionaries, like the apostle Paul.
There was no priest class, much less a pope - they were all brothers and sisters.
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
Okay, this is a great reply! Perhaps then religion has just become too distanced from it's humble beginnings! Maybe greed or some other factor has made it corrupt by it's own very nature.
I wonder when money started to be involved... I guess in the early days everyone was a volunteer.. I can't see the Pope cleaning toilets down at the Men's Mission...
1 person likes this
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
Oh yeah? Well, I am declaring right now that I am supreme ruler of awesome.. so now you can bow before me! (and I am not a myth) .. :)
@emarie (5442)
• United States
8 Dec 06
now thats so funny...i can't believe you sat there and typed all of that out...well, i'm christian...i never tried to recruit someone into the chruch, and i never agreed in the giving money part...we just thought it was fun to do while we were little, you know putting the money in the basket that came down..of course i haven't been to a church in over 4 years...
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
8 Dec 06
It's okay, I can type really fast... :)
Based on what you've said:
- No giving to church
- Not recruiting others to church
- Not attending church
Whether it's said or not, do you think others who do give, recruit and attend think they will be better rewarded in heaven?
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
I'll be there with you...
I always like Rev Love-Joy in the Simpsons...
"See you in Hell!!! .... From Heaven!" :)
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
That's what almost 20 decades gives you... endless quotes!! Ralph is my favourite... "I'm a triangle!"
@proofsay (661)
• Indonesia
9 Dec 06
i think you have seriously problem with your faith.religion (christian or catolic)is not about having money,have a good standar of living,well known,taking care of human being but is about another live after we die.the choosen is in our own hand.which one we go because that is our forever live.i never thought that God push us for something just live like He said in the bible and that it.about who sitting in a first class heaven is not like that.just repairing your relationship with God,go to the church and pray everyday plus read the bible dont magazine
@estherlou (5015)
• United States
11 Dec 06
I've never heard of this kind of thing. Where do you get your information?
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
Once again, I do not have a religion, so there is nothing wrong with me.
Okay, I notice one huge hypocrisy here. If we are all supposed to worry about the after-life, why is religion huge business? Shouldn't all the religious leaders live humble lives?
Does the Pope need to have a solid gold toilet-seat?
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
11 Dec 06
I was using an exaggeration to prove a point.
Take a look at the Vatican... take a look at the popes throne... you tell me he's living a life of poverty.
@rosesulz (32)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
I'm afraid you have a twisted and cynical idea of religion mtbkanata. I am sorry that you think this way, its very sad. I am Catholic and a Christian. My main goal is to live my life as Christ taught us with compassion, love, understanding, joy.
Have you ever read St. Francis Prayer?
That is what being a Christian is all about..
"Make me a channel of your peace
where there is hatred, let me bring LOVE
where thers is injury - PARDON
where there is doubt - FAITH
where there is despair - HOPE
where there is darkness - LIGHT
wher there is sadness - JOY
Grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as TO CONSOLE
to be understood as TO UNDERSTAND
To be loved as TO LOVE
For it is in GIVING that we RECIEVE
It is in PARDONING that WE ARE PARDONED
and it is in DYING that we are born to
ETERNAL LIFE.
This is what being a Christian is... We try to live our life the best that we can by helping others, following Christ's example. Not judging, not focussing on money but helping. I hope that I answered your question. Peace my friend.
@rosesulz (32)
• Canada
10 Dec 06
I think that your lack of reasoning is evident in your answer. You are looking for approval for what you have said. I'm not going to give you one. Your narrow mindedness blinds you to the reality of what I was saying... The blatant use of your 'facts' shows ignorance and is stopping you from seeing the real TRUTH ....
RELIGION IS NOT AN MLM... OR MONEY OR ANYTHING SECULAR...
YES... they ask for stipends which supports the use of the building, donations to the poor in the area (for Catholics it's St. Vincent de Paul), giving the clergy living allowances, pensions for retired clergy, keeping the building in good repair etc etc etc... The Vatican uses the money donated to help all the poor churches in the world especially in third world countries. Getting supplies to help build up communities and hospitals and orphanages. The works or art at the Vatican were given as gifts.. and like museums around the world these works or art are on display for all to see. There is your FACTS in action. There I answered your question, I hope it has enlightened you at least a glimmer..
@rosesulz (32)
• Canada
11 Dec 06
Nothing I say will convince you. Why not do some homework and find out your so called facts... go to the vatican website, or call a diocese for your much needed education. Emotional..yes.. when you attack my church and call it an MLM then you are attacking me. and If an MLM is what you are stating... then if you work... YOU ARE IN AN MLM.. THE WORLD IS ONE BIG MLM... WHOOPPEE. This discussion is going nowhere.. so I bid you farewell. I'll keep you in my prayers.
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
Thank you for your poem... Here's the thing, and please listen to what I am saying here.
For the reasons I outlined, when you look at a religion it is an MLM through and through. I'm not saying that you can't be involved, I'm not saying that you shouldn't be involved... I'm just pointing out the reality.
Do you give your 10%? Do you follow-up to see where it went?
You have to separate your emotions from this conversation, step back and look at the facts... this is not an issue of faith, but an issue of facts.
@mtdewgurl74 (18151)
• United States
11 Dec 06
I agree with you mostly in this. Look at the 700 club lord I called for a free prayer and then they have hounded me since with a few calls and letters every month. wanting me to donate $22-to $500. Why would I want to line ther pockets when I need money myself I have told them I have no money to spare and what do they say well we will spend you a pledge card so that you can give us the money at your convenience. Hello they are like leeches almost they say they are doing this for the good of children but I ask how much is seriously truly going to the children without first lining their own pockets first and paying for their airtime they may have paid at first fo r the airtime or suckered someone else into it but now they have millions of supporters religiously sending them money each month for nothing in return and extra money that people really need so they can line their pockets and maybe pick one family a month to help to so how good they are. But I would rather just send the money to the family straight out that would help them more. My granny was a 700 club member since almost the very beginng and all she had to show for it was a christmas card once a year with the pastors family in it and it wasn't even personalized. So I think christians are getting scammed. well this is my opinion only. Sorry if it offends anyone else.
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
11 Dec 06
I wonder if the TV churches are worse than the brick and mortar ones.. but yes, they are always clamouring for money. You can't find one on TV right now that isn't asking you to send them money for one thing or another. Nice how they give you the options, 22 - 500 dollars! How nice of them.
One thing on TV which really grinds my gears is the christian children's fund, where they show poor children dying and then say "Don't look away, give us money."
If they REALLY wanted money, just go to the USA congress... they gave GB 250 billion to beat up on the middle-east, perhaps they have a billion or so in aid to help poor children.. Oh wait, that won't work.. then the charity doesn't get their cut...
Sad.. so very sad.
@magikrose (5429)
• United States
11 Dec 06
While reading this thread I was thinking back to when I was a christian and going to church on a regular basis and I have realised that you are right. I never thought about it in the way you explained but it makes perfect sence. And only confirmes more for me that the decision I made to switch to a more earth based religin was the correct choice for me. I know some people dont mind paying other peoples salaries but personally I need my money more than they do since most of those pastors have normal 9-5 jobs during the week.
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
11 Dec 06
Which Earth-based religion did you decide on, if you don't mind me asking. To me those are a lot more appealing, as it's not all about wealth and greatness.. it's more about the connection you have with the life-force of the planet.. something more personal, not just following someone else...
@Poison_Girl (4150)
• United States
12 Dec 06
You know... this is SO true! I actually do have more to share (I think), but I can't think of anything right now. I'm sure there's been things I've thought of before, but none of it's just coming to mind right now. Anyway, like I said, I do agree with you and it did give me a bit of a chuckle. Thanks!
@jricbt (1454)
• Brazil
9 Dec 06
I never made that kind of connection.
Brilliant and Perfect, it is all I have to say.
Church and MLM scam. Can I translate it to portuguese and post on some forums that I participate (I will give you your due credits for this text.)
We have in Brazil some "churchs" that took it , that you wrote, to a new level. They have special tasks to earn more (spiritually only), those who give more, earn more (it is what they say, live on tv!!).
@jricbt (1454)
• Brazil
11 Dec 06
Thanks, I will be passing the idea on, and will post the response to this idea.
See , I am not a religious man, but I respect religion, and the need people have for it. But I do not like what some people do with religion, the bad use, the power games.
Again, thanks.
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
Oh man, that is perfect!
There is a shining example which proves my point!
I appreciate that you'll be passing this idea on. Please also remember, I am not posting this to say that religion is bad, and people should not have it, just that the way it's praticed is flawed and hurts everyone involved.
Religion should be like the old days. No one profits, everyone gets into heaven.
Remove the money and rewards, and you have something pure.
Think of it as a volunteer position.. the only reward is knowing you did something you believe in.
@paul8675 (750)
• Australia
10 Dec 06
As a Christian I actually gave a devotion to my workstaff on this very concept. The flaw in this argument is that clearly in scams or MLM schemes, the whole objective of downlines is to exploit people to gain material benefit for onesself. However in spreading Christianity, we seek no rewards for self. We are merely obeying the great commission and we are saving sould from hell. Our motivation is inspired by helping others, not self.
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
10 Dec 06
Wait one second though... the gain does not have to be material. The gain could be power, fame or in religion's case, a seat in heaven.
In spreading Christianity, you are in fact seeking a reward... the very reward of having your soul saved.
You are obeying a commission, which will save your soul. You are motivated by having your soul saved. That to make sounds like the actions of someone with something to gain, not a volunteer.
I could surmise that if you go to a village in Africa let's say, and spread Christianity (Even though they already have a religion)... are you not just exploiting those poor people with a new hope to further cement your place in heaven?
If the only purpose was to save yourself, you would have no concern over what others do...
@1fatpig (785)
• Australia
9 Dec 06
I had this discussion the other night with some friends and my comment was a very smart man wrote the bible and it was written to fool people and is a business book .. these types of discussions upset a lot of people .. I have a lot of stories which involve fathers , pastors and priests and the things they do and say to to make money .. and you know if you say something to these people they dont want you near there church or if you talk to other people and they find out they have people in high places to get you its all corruption I spoke out a couple of times once I lost my job , and the other time I got threatened by a police officer .. you have three levels rich - middle class - lower class .. they say we dont have classes but we do .. where do the churches fit in [rich] so there out to help who the poor -if this is true do me a favor all the poor go to your local church and ask them for $20 I bet you double that you will get nothing - the only help you will recieve is they will read you something out of the bible there fast talkers and get you off the subject of money and save the money for themselfs -but they want you to give each and every week until it hurts you ..
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
I do see the class system in full-effect even here in Canada (Which is supposed to be a first-world country).
Churches are at the top for sure. The seats might be filled with all class of people, but the church is at the top without a doubt. They have power, money and influence. All traits of a high class ranking.
I do think that religion started with good intentions, and there are a lot of good intentions still today, but there is too much greed and corruption overshadowing the good.
I mean it's like saying, I'll give you $20 (Which is good), but then I'll break your leg (Which is bad).. Do you still want the $20? The bad has overshadowed the good.
@emeraldisle (13139)
• United States
9 Dec 06
First I love your comparision. I had never thought about it but you do have a very good point.
The one post said that "God commands us to give 10 percent." I would love to know where they found that in the bible because God does not command it. The humans that run the chruch do.
The bible does though encourage us to spread the word to others. Be it Catholic or another form of Christian it does ask us to reach out to others and show them the way. If that's not recruiting I don't know what is.
I agree with you that many chuchs are MLM programs just disquised so that most don't realize it.
@1fatpig (785)
• Australia
12 Dec 06
In a church I know they want 12% now and next year have hinted for 15% another what they do is put a list up on a board of causes there going to help and you pick one to donate to and they give you a envelope not with your name but with a number on it they put numbers on the inside ..so they say that know one knows who has donated what .. CRAP they have a list of names and number next to them .. so they know who is giving what ... then they go to that person and say we got a message from god and he wants you to give more money in future ... when they say god said you only put $50 in !! they cant believe how they know !!!god must of told them !!!
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
Yeah, I haven't read the bible, but I was pretty sure there was no actual commandment about giving 10% ... it just seems like an arbitrary number.. like you should skip every 15th step you take or something like that...
@ruki22 (102)
• Philippines
10 Dec 06
hey im a catholic but i dont give 10% of my earnings in our church. in fact i dont even recruit people to join or religion. well for me religion is not exlusive & everyone has a right to have one. there is nothing bad about other religions may it be buddhist, islam, christianity or shinto. its teachings is what's valueble & not what you give to it. may there be one day that all religion will join in one banner so we could eliminate prejudice & hatred to one another.
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
10 Dec 06
One religion is a good idea, but just impractical. Isn't there a story about that in the christian bible where all the people joined together and tried to make a tower to god? Then he said no way, Jose and ruined all their plans?
I take that like to say in their religion, you don't work with other people for a common goal...
@jessycardy (684)
• Italy
9 Dec 06
I agree with mtbkanata. I think the same can be said about any religion. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, 'cause I believe everyone has the right to believe what they want. I'm not saying there aren't any gods, either. What I really believe to be a scam is the power religion has. The people who get rich because of it, the people who kill in the name of it, the people who decides to have no freedom in the name of it (i.e. women in certain countries).
I highly believe in religion seen the way it was seen by Martin Luther King, if you know what I mean. That's what it's all about. We can't have WARS in the name of religion. How ridiculous is that?!? We can't believe we'll have a better place with a nice computer, LCD screen and bedroom up in the sky only if we have given money to the priest or go to church every weekend. I think the people who really believe in religion know there is soooo much more than that. And now that I've read about this Christian channel on TV or whatever it is, I'm just more convinced of my opinions. Everyone should believe in who or what they want and keep it inside. It's just such a delicate and personal issue... Just as I find ridiculous that most of times religion is based on where you live or where you were born... I mean, c'mon! Okay, I think I've ranted enough. LOL!
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
I posted a similar thought about religion being personal in another post.
Once you add the money, the power and the fame in some cases, problems start.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
@naziashajid (847)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
I found your topic very interesting. However I do not agree with you. I think reliegions make people more humnan. If there was no boundaries there would be no peace.
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
Not sure I follow your point... There is no peace now.
It's okay not to agree with me, I'm not trying to change your mind, just throwing a new idea out there.
I'm not sure how you can be made "more" human... either you are a human or you are not.. you can't be more of less of it.
@1fatpig (785)
• Australia
10 Dec 06
this is a little of subject but you talk about religion -- what I can not understand is this how can someone adore - pray too , worship , something that allows all the pain and suffering to happen in the world . would you think if he had the power to stop all this he would .. people are led like sheep ...
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
10 Dec 06
This is all part of the MLM ... The more your suffer now, either in finances or personal, the more you get later in heaven.
So, first you have to believe there is a heaven, then you have to believe there is some sort of accounting system the records every hardship you come across.
It's almost like people from some religions go out of the way to tell everyone how hard they had it, and how much they've had to endure (Just watch any show on the church channel, and you'll have a whole group of people all crying over something).
Why do they do this? Well, pay now, get a better seat in heaven...
@ghanshyamnwd (46)
• India
9 Dec 06
may be you are right, but think also of it's gain , it teaches people to have patience in hard times, live socially with other people , learn ehtics and lot of other things, there are always two sides of a coin , remember?
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
Oh course there are two sides! That's why we're having a discussion. I never mention that people gain nothing from religion... I am comparing it to an MLM. There may be gains along the way, but it's only the top who truely gain.. just like an MLM.
@primecrimson (1388)
• Philippines
9 Dec 06
Well you've got your reasons but its up to the people who really serve their religion of how strong and sincere their faith to God. It's up to them to be used or using others. As long as you are sincere to your faith you don't have to think of others using you in their religion.
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
Faith is not enough... don't you think you would have to DO something?
Ignoring a problem does not make it go away... You can be a level 10 believer in god (I just made that up), but if you see that your whole religion is going in the toilet, don't you want to do something before it's flushed?
@inanna327 (8)
• United States
9 Dec 06
I agree with your post and while I find the way you presented it to be very humorous, I also think it is pretty sad. I was actually thinking earlier how religion(s) - particularly those of the Christian variety - are just a big marketing/sales ploy. I appreciate your comparisons and applaud you. Would you mind if I shared it with others?
@mtbkanata (248)
• Canada
9 Dec 06
Please do share... that's the whole point of myLot! Share ideas, share conversation. I guess you have to be a little humourous, I mean serious too.. this is a pretty serious thing, since it effects most people ..
