Why Do People Take The Bible As "Gospel" Truth?
By pyewacket
@pyewacket (43903)
United States
January 12, 2008 10:12pm CST
Okay about to open a can of worms here again and will probably get people down my throat for this, but I just have to rattle this out.
First, let me explain that yes, I grew up in a Christian household, and yes, we read the Bible, and yes, we went to church, and on and on and on. I thank my lucky stars so to say, that religion however was never crammed down my throat with an attitude of "this is how it is" and anything else or other viewpoints are wrong. And this in particular strikes home for me when it comes to just HOW many Christian people have been raised.
In particular I'm talking about people who view the Bible as one-hundred percent gospel truth (no pun intended) and that everything, and I mean everything should be viewed as true. Yes, those of this particular religious viewpoint might say that the Bible is the word of God written by man, but do any of these people realize how many "reincarnations" the written Bible has undergone, and I understand there are fifty, yes FIFTY different versions of the Bible each which their own translation of this so-called "truth"?
Also, during the Council of Nicea, the first being in AD 325 many of the original aspects of the original manuscripts that were written were conveniently deleted...For instance many of the references that were originally in the Bible that alluded to reincarnation itself were omitted. The Christian Church wanted the average person to think that only through the salvation through Christ could one go to heaven so of course the idea of reincarnation would have completely gone against this way of thinking.
Then comes the whole issue of creationism versus evolution, which of course many who view the Bible as truth as bent up in arms against, that evolution is complete folly, don't believe in it, and truly believe that God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh. First, almost ALL cultures have their form of how the universe began...it's not just a Judaic/Christian "thing"...but to my mind all are allegorical, all are stories from a religious perspective of how the universe, the earth, the animals and man began---Though I have not read the whole book, if someone were to pick up and read for instance, JRR Tolkien's The Simarillian, one could view IT as a Bible, for he too, gave a creation story of how the light of Iluvatar (GOD) created the world through music...of the gods/goddesses know as the Valar were formed, of how Morgoth, who was a Valar was similar to the fallen angel, Satan, of how Middle Earth was created and the separate races of Middle Earth were created---but you see? It's just a "story"--just as I view many aspects of the Bible as a "story"
Now those who firmly believe in all that the Bible says as truth and that evolution is bunk my question is how can one?? You see, yes even though I had a Christian background, I also had a very heavy duty science background...in school I was the typical science geek..while yes so many of the aspects of all sciences remain as theory only, there is just TOO much hard core real evidence that points to the direction that evolution isn't bunk. How does one explain, for instance, while also not one-hundred percent accurate, but with a plus/minus of some years, that with Carbon-14 and Potassium Argaon dating, we have been able to date how old the earth is for instance as billions of years old via both dating and geologic means. How can we date fossils to millions of years old...How can one explain the presence of say dinosaurs? They did NOT exist at any same time as the species of man...had man existed simultaneously with dinosaurs, I seriously doubt mankind would even exist as we no doubt would have made many a tasty meal for the dinosaur.
Some might say that cataclysmic events can change the structure of the earth in a twinkling of an eye...say eruptions of volcanoes..yes, true but those are isolated incidences--so with this rationale, Creationists believe that how the universe was created and mankind was just as fast..So it goes against their thinking about evolution which on the other hand is a slow process. Scientists have been able, by reconstructing fossil evidence and dating them have been able to see how one species branched out into another...this was true for mankind. Mankind was evolved from the primate family...One branch, the Ramapithicus, continued to evolve into the later day primates as we know them...the monkeys, chimpanzees, orangutans, gorillas, etc...while an offshoot branched out into what would later be our species, and the first indications of that direction was with the Australopithecus--uh, remember "Lucy"??
Anyway...sorry getting so long-winded here....the bottom line is, just HOW can people take the Bible SO seriously and believe every single word as truth, and close their minds to anything that goes against their beliefs, such as science in general. I AM NOT attacking one's religious beliefs...I just wish people who do have such beliefs would be more open minded and read, just really read what's going on in the world instead of living in the Dark Ages mentality
16 people like this
26 responses
@Adoniah (7513)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Do you like your blue star? I used to have one of those. I remember it well, until I wrote the story of the Ecuminical Council of Nicaea and Constantine. There are a whole lot of people who do not and will not believe that any of that ever happened. They believe that the christian testament was written by the apostles and that is that.
The Torah or old testament was replaced and no longer needed and those that follow it are heretics damned for all time unless they accept the christ as their savior and the christian testament as the word of G'd.
I am a Jew and I do not even think that the Torah is the word of G'd. It is the history of the Jewish people struggling with Monotheism. The first part of the Torah is taken verbatim from the ancient pagan stories of creation. The virgin birth is also an old pagan story. OOPs I can feel my star slipping again.
Of course you have to keep in mind that the christian testament was basically compiled by the pagan Constantine. No matter how much the catholic church lies and says he converted. Yes, he was baptized as he lay on his deathbed, but was he alive enough to even know he was being baptized? He was a pagan when he was at Nicaea.
Nice posting!
Shalom~Adoniah
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Oh, I've started a lot more "hot" topics before or responded to other "heated" discussions and so far nothing has happened to my star..LOL. Why they would believe that the Christian testament was written by the apostles is beyond me...most people throughout history, unless of the richer class were illiterate and couldn't write anyway..usually it was just the "men of the cloth" so to say that knew how to write...most of what was written later on were written/copied by monks holed up in their monasteries. Mmmm..I'll have to check your discussion out..would love to read it.. :)
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Mmmm...just tried to find that discussion and couldn't find it
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Well maybe someone was following Christ around and writing things down, his every word, but how reliable can we be that in later years what was actually written down at the time of his life with what was later "documented" as the same thing?
It's like the classic example....tell a person a story...he/she is to repeat it to someone, and that someone is to repeat it to someone else, and that someone else repeats it yet to another person...by the end the story is so radically different it doesn't even resemble the original story
I'm not questioning the validity of whether Christ did or didn't exist, I'm more questioning what we now know as "the Bible" as the truth of everything and it would be interesting to know how much the "original" written words of the Bible differ from now.
2 people like this
@twoey68 (13627)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Over the years growing up I've read alot of parts of the Bible. I know I've never read it entirely, cover to cover. Most of what I believe and what I follow has been taught to me growing up. My Dad is Catholic and my Mom has followed mostly Christian religion with some Salvation Army and a few years ago Mormon. I don't believe the Bible is meant to be taken word for word but I also believe that there are certain things we should be following...the whole Thou shall not kill comes to mind. That being said alot of ppl and churches will take pieces of the Bible and "interpret" it the way they want to.
I think instead of trying to follow the Bible word for word you should follow basic morals that most ppl were taught as children.
**AT PEACE WITHIN**
~~STAND STRONG IN YOUR BELIEFS~~
6 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Yes, the ten commandments are great guidelines of how one should live, moral behavior if you will, but like you I don't think every word of the Bible should be taken literally either
3 people like this
@sarahruthbeth22 (43143)
• United States
13 Jan 08
I think you answered your own question. They are raised to believe that the Bible is the word of G-d and if you question Any of it , you will be damned. If you question the Eden story, then you can question everything and then the Bible will cease to be holy. All I can say is thank G-d I am not that type of Christian or a Christian at all. I believe that the Bible is a holy book but that I am to question it.Not demean it but examine what it is trying to teach ,not just deem it a holy book and never study it.
4 people like this
@sarahruthbeth22 (43143)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Neither do I.That's why I like being Jewish. There is the Bible and then there is the Talmud, a book of interpretations of the Bible by Jewish scholars and rabis.It encourages you to think about the meaning behind the stories of the Bible. so when you have questions, you are not told not to question it.You can see what others thought about the Bible before you.
5 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 Jan 08
I was actually inspired by your discussion about the teaching of evolution in schools and if children should be taken out of classes to have this discussion. Also like every book that has ever been written, all have been subject to interpretation of it..how one views the book, whatever it is. I do respect the Bible, and its ideas and concepts I just don't take every word of it as being the one and only right way to think
4 people like this
@Debs_place (10520)
• United States
13 Jan 08
I am not arguing with you about your points at all, in fact I had a similar discussion with someone a few months ago.
We discussed evolution and dinosaurs, genetics etc and this is science lying to us.
And us for different versions of the bible...well they are all correct because they were written with divine intervention.
My head was spinning by the time I got done with her.
5 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Oh I've come across a few people here that made my head spin...LOL Might have been the same person too that you came across
4 people like this
@BarBaraPrz (47332)
• St. Catharines, Ontario
13 Jan 08
People believe what they want to believe. Japanese tourists come to P.E.I. to visit the house where Anne of Green Gables lived... uh, Anne is a fictional character... And while St. Nicholas was a real person, millions of people perpetuate the myth of Santa Claus, another fictional character.
I'm not a bible scholar, but I understand there are contradictions in it that bible thumpers conveniently overlook. Don't get your girdle in a knot over it. I don't.
4 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
14 Jan 08
Mmmm....I don't wear a girdle...LOL
Kind of sounds how people wanted to go and visit Edoras or The Shire of Middle Earth..being that it was only a movie set and of course has been long torn down anyway
@zigzagbuddha (4601)
• United States
13 Jan 08
They can do that because they ARE living in the dark ages... with a dark age mentality.
The thing is the 'creationists vs the evolutionists' is the wrong perspective to begin with... they're both wrong - in the whole - but each contain particles of truth.
It would be like putting two boxers in a ring and then asking the audience "which one is love?" Neither one of them is, from a certain perspective, but from another they both are.
This world was created out of love and by love, but love is in a constant state of evolution.
4 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Yes the evolutionists aren't completely right either I know that. One day some startling scientific breakthrough might occur and wipe out everything we know it to be and it'll be back to square one again...I guess in some ways we'll never really know all the truth, either from a religious perspective or scientific one, right? Maybe we're not meant to know
3 people like this
@zigzagbuddha (4601)
• United States
13 Jan 08
We will never know all the truth from either of those perspectives because neither one holds the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me god. You have to step 'outside the box' to see the bigger picture, and even then I think that there is more to truth than we can even comprehend. But it doesn't really matter much does it, if you're experiencing the joys of creation right here and right now??
4 people like this
@Lakota12 (42600)
• United States
13 Jan 08
HEar ! HEar! so glad you posted this.
you have said it all so good and my thoughts exactly!
I just didnt have the time or notion to dig this far to post the same thing.
LIke you I just dont see how Bible thumper can go againts what sceince has proved already!.
and most just shutter at the thoughts that we evolved from an ape . WE just evoled to a thinking , feeling ,choice taking,inventing thing, so much I cant think of what else here to say.
My Grandpa on my mommas side wrote letters to one another all about this he was a great beleiver in science and so am I .
and even in the native american people has great stories of how the earth and man was greated .
and if ya read enough from all aspects of life most stories came out just about the same.
2 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
14 Jan 08
Glad to hear you grew up in a pretty much "science" background too..so we're both science nerds right? LOL
I'm basically not saying people shouldn't believe in the Bible or have it as their religion, but to take every single word as truth is so outdated. You bring up about Native Americans. I once used to, and I say used to,like that St. Joseph's School that supposedly helps the Sioux children until one time I got a letter asking for donations so they could raise enough money to give every single Indian child their own Bible...I wanted to puke...I mean like Native Americans DO have their own religions, their own beliefs, but looks like the whole thing of eradicating their beliefs to convert to Christianity...something that's been done since Columbus landed..yeesh
@cyntrow (8523)
• United States
14 Jan 08
I do believe in the Judeo-Christian God. I also believe that the Bible was written by man in the words that they believed that God was trying to convey. But God didn't tell them what to write and he didn't translate it for them. Even if the original script was in God's words, which I strongly doubt, the various interpretations and translations have changed it too much. We, who are followers of the judeo-Christian God, need to use the brains that we believe He gave us and question that which does not make since. The Bible is a guide as to how we should treat one another in order to live peacabley in a civilized society. The ten commandments make since. Our consience should tell us this. THe rest is parrables, and frankly, ethnic cleansing. The entirety of the old testement is about why the Jews are better than everyone else and how to keep the hebrew race pure. If I seem resentful, it's because I am half jewish and would never be recognised because my father marrried a genitle.
2 people like this
@AmbiePam (92789)
• United States
13 Jan 08
This is why I usually don't answer discussions such as these. No one is asking for a discussion, it's for people to voice their dislike or hate of Christians or Christianity. I'm not lambasting you for anything you believe in. There is a thing called respect, something we each should have for each other. I respect and have studied other people's religions. But I find no hatred in my heart to reply to someone so bothered by my beliefs. You decided you don't believe what I do, and that is fine. But it won't change my mind. These discussions never change anyone's mind. They just bring up derision for a certain group of people or religion. I don't think Pye intended that AT ALL, but that is what happens.
1 person likes this
@zigzagbuddha (4601)
• United States
13 Jan 08
I would never try to talk anyone out of their beliefs, particularly not a dyed-in-the-wool Christian... they hold on to their beliefs rigidly, in spite of any evidence to the contrary, and generally feel very self-righteous and moral for doing so.
If you feel the need for a list of 'rights' and 'wrongs' that are carved in stone so that you don't have to think for yourself, then that's your business not mine.
1 person likes this
@ClarusVisum (2163)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Okay, so if an all-knowing God creates humans, then he'd already know what choices we are going to make. He'd already know who was going to end up in Hell. Yet he creates them anyway. God is created doomed people, and you still think that there is "free will" in this belief system? Absurd.
And that goes without even mentioning that Christians literally believe that God is willing to create imperfect humans, and then punish them for their imperfections.
You've got to be kidding me. Even if I thought this god DID exist, I STILL wouldn't worship him. The Christian God is a sadistic creature, and the Bible tells that story perfectly clearly, to anyone capable of reading it objectively.
1 person likes this
@xParanoiax (6987)
• United States
13 Jan 08
*smiles* I'm like Elic -- though they describe it better.
But yeah...sometimes I defend those who believe in creationism too, and I always point out; "Do you know how long exactly a day is to God? That particular book seemed to make it out that God was tired after working on creating the world...his days coulda been millions of years for all we know."
But yeah, people know me, I pretty much strictly pagan...but I don't try to say which deity's the truest face of the power that runs the universe. I personally believe they're all aspects of it, personalities we project onto it in an attempt to understand it.
Personally, those who're closed minded, of any religion or faith irk me some.
But people are not always leaders, many, many of them are followers. So we have to keep in mind that, that mentality while perhaps it was taught to them....it's easier for them too. It's scary to go outside what you're comfortable with, where you don't have to stretch those neurons too much. And they're also really afraid of being wrong.
Which you would think, logically, that would make them WANT to educate themselves...but they think it'd be too confusing, or else they were taught that in doing so they'd be inviting temptation and demons to lead them astray. *shakes my head*
Not all christians are like this, bit often the bigots who actively seek out to alienate other people tend to be like this.
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 Jan 08
I know not all Christians are like this...heck I grew up in a Christian upbringing and while I now lean toward a more pagan/wiccan path, I haven't completely abandoned my Christian upbringing, but then I also have studied Buddhism and Hinduism as well..wow that makes for some combo, no?
2 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 Jan 08
oops that's I know not all Christians AREN'T like this
2 people like this
@mfpsassy (2827)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Hi Pye
I have a problem with both religion and science and they are really simple questions actually
If the bible says incest is forbidden, after Adam and Eve had Cain and Able where did the rest of us come from?
If we evolved from apes and other spiecies why are we/they not continuing to evolve?
If people were/are as opened minded as they say they would realize there are no concrete solid answers and probably never will be. That is why they are called beliefs
@xParanoiax (6987)
• United States
14 Jan 08
I also agree, we are still evolving. But the mutated genetics have to be passed on to make a difference as well, and those who're noticeably different because of their genetics have not always been exactly accepted by our society...which may have slowed things down further even.
There was also a study recently that said instead of the world being populated by a single human race..no more varied skin colors and eye shapes? They said we may actually be evolving toward the opposite, that we're becoming more and more unique...especially as we have the races mix like they didn't used to that much a few hundred years ago.
But you still have a lovely point, Sassy. We may not know anything for concrete certain for a long time yet..and everyone should be entitled to their beliefs (and allow others to be as well).
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 Jan 08
I agree with Clarus...who is to say we or any other species on this world isn't still evolving. It takes many, many years, maybe thousands or more years for any noticeable change in a species..in some cases millions of years.
And yes that is a big question that many who follow the bible religiously and word for word don't seem to deal with. Incest has been taboo (in almost all cultures actually)...so how do they explain how the world was populated in general if not by incest since they believe the population evolved from the Adam and Eve
@ClarusVisum (2163)
• United States
13 Jan 08
"If we evolved from apes and other spiecies why are we/they not continuing to evolve?"
1. We didn't evolve from apes: we ARE apes! All of the great ape species (including humans) evolved from a common ancestor that is now extinct. That's the main reason why we share over 99% of our active DNA with the other ape species! Creationists sure have no explanation for that!
2. Who says that we/they are not continuing to evolve? Every species that is not extinct is evolving constantly! Evolution is a continuous, constant process, but we, just one generation of humans, can't possibly notice a difference in ourselves! Evolution takes WAYYYYYY more than one generation to have an effect great enough that we can notice.
1 person likes this
@Aurone (4755)
• United States
13 Jan 08
All I can say is I don't know. Its been translated, rewritten and edited--and it was not handed down by God or even any of it written by Jesus? But people's faith is what it is, I suppose--even if I don't happen to believe in it. Blessed Be.
3 people like this
@Aurone (4755)
• United States
13 Jan 08
It may be God inspired but God did not write the Bible and then hand it to man. That was the point I was making. Its not like the 10 Commandments which were handed to Moses by God. Therefore, it is flawed by man's perspective, never mind that a lot of it was written long after the events described happened.
1 person likes this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Aurone does have a point there...yes, maybe the bible was God inspired, just as many ideas can actually be considered as being "inspired" but it wasn't actually written by God himself and over the years there have been so many translations of the Bible...
Found this website about the languages involved with the Bible
http://ask.yahoo.com/20030227.html
Here's an excerpt:
Like many ancient works, the oldest parts of the Bible were passed along orally before they were ever written down. Many devout Jews and Christians believe that the full text of the Bible was given to Moses by God on Mount Sinai. Though the Bible's earliest origin may always be a matter of faith, it remains a fact that after the Bible was recorded, many different versions existed. It wasn't until the first century B.C.E. (Before the Common Era, aka B.C.) that Jews settled on the canon of their scripture, and it was around 400 C.E. (Common Era, aka A.D.) that Christians agreed on all the books of their New Testament. Today, countless translations and interpretations of the Bible exist in English and many other languages.
The oldest written parts of the Bible found were transcribed in three languages. What scholars call the Hebrew Bible (the same books Jews call the Tanakh or Written Torah and Christians call the Old Testament) was first written in Hebrew with a few chapters of the books of Ezra and Daniel recorded in Aramaic. Hebrew had long been the language of the Jewish people, so their scriptures were passed down in Hebrew. Some of the books of the Hebrew Bible may have been written as far back as 1,400 B.C.E., although most of the text was probably written between 900 and 400 B.C.E.
Aramaic is a Semitic language that was widely spoken from 600 to 200 B.C.E. in the near Middle East. It was one of the common languages of the region until the 13th century, when Arabic became more prominent. Many people believe Jesus and his apostles spoke Aramaic.
The Christian New Testament was written in the first century C.E. in the common Greek of the Mediterranean area and parts of the Middle East at the time. This form of Greek is called Koine Greek. It developed from classical Greek spread by the conquests of Alexander the Great. As different people began to use the tongue, it evolved and changed into Koine Greek between 300 B.C.E. and 300 C.E. This form may have been the second language of Jesus and his apostles -- after all, the gospels note that Jesus spoke with Pontius Pilate, who would have been more likely to understand Greek than Aramaic. The New Testament was probably written in Greek because it was the most common language around the Mediterranean at the time.
After the Roman Empire itself was Christianized and Latin become the common language, the entire Bible was translated into Latin. The first Latin version is called the Vulgate. In the mid-15th century, when Johannes Gutenberg invented movable type, the Latin Vulgate edition of the Christian Bible was the first work he printed. .."
So in other words...the "words" of the Bible have been translated from various languages throughout history, and as with all translations many words were probably substituted as there may not have been an exact equivalent--and as it points out the first bible was actually handed down orally
@sumofalltears (3988)
• United States
13 Jan 08
So here is my can of worms for you...I believe that all religions have been created by man as a means of controlling the masses. In other words a way to gain power. Man has been on a never ending quest for power and religion is one way of getting it. Build a mass of people that truly believe what you preach and you can really have a great time. Look at Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, Jesse Jackson and however many more there are, all you really need is a great storyteller with a little personality and charisma and minimal religious belief and presto instant religion and church.
Religion has been a stepping stone to power and control since the Crusades. And in todays world, people use it as a defense for inappropriate actions. Religion should be a personal thing and nobody should be condemned for not going to church every week. Why do I have to go to church to pray when my everyday actions should determine how god sees me. I don't need someone or some doctrine to tell me how, when, and where I can worship.
3 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Mmmm...how about adding to the list...David Koresh and Sun Mnung Moon? Yes, agree with you that religion in many ways was a means to control the masses. Most people eons ago, were illiterate, the only ones who usually were able to read and write were the "priests" or monks in monasteries, so even with that "skill" they could control people. I haven't been to a church in I don't know how long..yes a "church" type atmosphere might have a "holy" effect, but what could be holier than communing to the "source" in a nice open field? And everyday to boot, not just once a week
2 people like this
@amram80 (48)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Wow, what a long post. I accept the Bible a truth by faith, and quite frankly, without a divine omnipotent creator, none of this makes any sense. You simply cannot get something from nothing, as evolution would have us to believe. So for me, it's easier to belive in a divine creator as opposed to believing that some forces acted on a primordial "soup" and complex molecules were formed that somehow came together and formed a cell.
In my humble opinion, the bible is difficult to understand. Although divinely inspired, the Bible was written by men over hundreds of years. Those men, inspired by the Holy Sprit, often wrote about things they had never seen, visions if you will. For example, when the apostle John wrote the book of Revelation, he may have been writing about end times and modern warfare. How would a first century writer describe modern day weaponry?
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
14 Jan 08
Okay I'll just make this rather short here.
I don't question a person's faith, to me you can believe whatever you want...my question overall is can you really believe that every single word of the Bible as unrefutably true?
The human species for instance would have been a very short-lived one if it had come from the first man and woman, that is Adam and Eve....it would have suggested interbreeding, and incestuous relationships as everyone would have been related to everyone else--does that sound logical?
I agree with Clarus here in many aspects...scientists have actually "recreated" the conditions necessary for the "primordial soup" the right conditions that created the first nucleotides and amino acids that lead to the road of the first beginnings of life at a cellular level--in other words, there is actually MORE evidence of how life began than not...and not by a supreme being who created the our world or universe in only six days..but took billions of years all total
And its true that science doesn't say God doesn't exist...both religion and science are actually two different ways to interpret how everything exists...religion from a "faith" aspect and science from, well a "scientific" viewpoint...no one is exactly one-hundred percent right or wrong for we really don't know all the answers to everything...yet there if far more concrete scientific evidence to refute a lot of what is in the Bible...so again is that question I asked amram80...do you believe EVERYTHING, every single word in the Bible as being true?
@ClarusVisum (2163)
• United States
13 Jan 08
"I accept the Bible a truth by faith"
Which of course does not magically make it true. It's still just a belief, not a 'truth'.
"without a divine omnipotent creator, none of this makes any sense."
This is a lousy argument. "I don't get it, therefore it must be false." If everyone thought like you, we'd never learn anything. Guess what? It makes perfect sense to a lot of people, because they have done staggering amounts of real, hard work, and have discovered mechanisms that show EXACTLY how it is possible. Science doesn't say God doesn't exist, HOWEVER, none of the facts we discover with science REQUIRE there to be a "divine omnipotent creator" in order to work (science doesn't touch any supernatural concept at all). The Miller-Urey experiements gave a perfect example of how life could have spontaneously arisen on the early Earth. To say it makes no sense is the same as saying that you're completely ignorant of all of the science we've done that gives us an increasingly-solid idea of how it could have happened. Acting like it's an impossibility is misguided at best, dishonest at worst. So, which are you, mistaken or a liar?
"You simply cannot get something from nothing, as evolution would have us to believe."
WRONG. I DEFY you to show me a statement or an excerpt from ANY peer-reviewed scientific literature in biology (which is the part of science evolution is in) that defines evolution as having ANYTHING to do with "something coming from nothing." That's ridiculous! Creationists make garbage like this up, because they have no answer to the ACTUAL Theory of Evolution. Stop letting these creeps lie to you!
"it's easier to belive in a divine creator"
Really? Where did the creator come from? Your "belief" creates more questions than it answers, AND we can't do anything with it. How many vaccines/cures for diseases have come about through creationism? Oh, that's right, ZERO. Our knowledge of the fact of evolution is DIRECTLY responsible for every cure and every vaccine in modern medicine--modern medicine ITSELF has evolution as its foundation! If evolution was so wrong, where did all these vaccines come from? Hey, did you realize that no one gets polio anymore? GUESS WHY!
"as opposed to believing that some forces acted on a primordial "soup" and complex molecules were formed that somehow came together and formed a cell."
Hey, DON'T "believe" it. Science requires no faith. Open your eyes and actually LOOK at the research yourself! It's no secret, locked away in a vault somewhere. It's not something everyone has to experience on a personal level--it's objective and universal (of course, you need a decent science education to UNDERSTAND it all--REAL science isn't black and white or 'so simple a child could understand it').
At least the forces that drive abiogenesis (which is the science that deals with the origin of life--evolution only refers to how life PROGRESSES, not starts) are things that we actually know are there! What proof do you have that this "creator" of yours exists? An old myth from a few thousand years ago, with a talking snake? THAT'S where you get your 'truth'? Are you serious?!
You can't argue with results. Modern vaccines could not exist if evolution wasn't a fact. And yet, SOMEHOW they do! Gee, I wonder why...maybe, just maybe, it's because evolution IS a fact, which makes testable predictions and is always open to being refuted with conflicting evidence. And yet, even after enduring a literal ONSLAUGHT of contentious testing by real scientists who wanted so badly to prove evolution wrong, it's still standing strong, never having been taken down by any of those scientists (of course, remember that these were HONEST people--they were willing to admit their inability to find evidence that contradicts evolution, unlike the creationists of today who do NO ACTUAL SCIENCE, and use straw man arguments and just flat-out LIES to try and make evolution sound weaker than it actually is). Evolution is as well-understood, well-accepted, and well-evidence as gravity and Einstein's Theory of Relativity. Any theory that can take a CENTURY AND A HALF of rigorous testing without being refuted is CLEARLY strong.
1 person likes this
@amram80 (48)
• United States
14 Jan 08
I certainly do sense alot of anger in Clarus on this subject. It was not my intent to anger anyone, just to give an opinion. Yes I do believe every word of the Bible, and I choose to do so by faith. I certainly cannot explain everything in the Bible, but I do believe it is truth revealed to us by God. Is it all truth? No. Just what God has chosen to reveal to us.
I am a health care provider with a professional degree. You might be interested to know my Zoology professor also believed in divine creation, and saw no contradiction between her beliefs and the subject she was teaching, which included evolution. (I do believe evolution occurs within a species, and so did she.)
Here is something else to ponder, if there is no God, and when we die we just cease to exist, then my beliefs, through the teachings of the Bible, simply make me a better person overall. Not perfect, just better. For example, since I fear God and try to shun evil, adultery for me is not an option, and I care more for my fellow man than I would otherwise. And when I tell you I'm going to do something, you can take it to the bank. I keep my word, no matter what.
Conversely, if there is a creator God that we all must ultimately answer to, then non-believers, (those who shun those truths found in the Bible), have a serious problem. I'm not here to pick a fight. You asked a question, and I gave you my prespective.
1 person likes this
@LittleMel (8742)
• Canada
13 Jan 08
It is hard I guess, to follow a religion with all your heart and soul without trying to understand the other side's points of view, especially if the religion condemns these views. I've known many people like this, and strangely they behaved as if they were always right, in any situation not only when talking about their religions. I do not let them do this, and along the way I took a step away from my own religion, I found that I have become more open to other's views and that there is more to life than religion. If God is love then wherever you find love than there is God. Love doesn't belong to only one religion.
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
14 Jan 08
I do think that is the problem with some of the Christian sects that they do condemn any other form of Christian views, or religions in general--and you're right there..Both God and Love does not belong to just one religion
@CraftyCorner (5600)
• United States
14 Jan 08
The Bible is a collection of books full of many truths, stories, and ideas. Several books did not make it into the Bible, and they are worth pursuing.
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Many of these truths are relative to the time of writing, which is not today. Some are universal, but the reader must decide which is relative to today.
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The Bible has been translated numerous times, and translation no matter how carefully done leads to bloopers. Taking a blooper as God's truth is...problematic. It doesn't matter how well meaning the translator was when flubbing.
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The Bible has been copied over more often than it has been translated. That is as blooper prone as translation.
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Linguists who read more than one language read bibles written in different languages sometimes claim to scarce recognize the book they read as the same text.
@CraftyCorner (5600)
• United States
15 Jan 08
While there are truths in it, there are other considerations.
1 person likes this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
14 Jan 08
So you too don't believe the Bible should be taken as literal truth either,right?
1 person likes this
@terilee79720 (3621)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Hi Pye.....Talk about a can of worms.....LOL
I read your whole post......and more in the comments. Wow.....
If we had the ability to open our minds and join science and religion - what a concept that would be.
If we consider what the 'interpretations' say about six days........and add that to all of the other scriptures.....then add that to what we KNOW from science, it will all total up to an understanding of what is logical. Now that makes sense - to me.......
But - like some of the comments......"I didn't read it because it was so long".....is much the same response from more people than not. There is too much to read, too much to do, and they don't find it interesting enough to find out what any truth might be.....because....it's too long and takes too much time away from them......LOL
The answers (for me) are there, mixed with truth, science and some common sense. BUT - we have to sypher through all the lies we've been taught to believe in that came from way out in left field and sometimes, have nothing to do with anything the scriptures say......in some cases, the scriptures didn't say that at all.......
I think more people than not read one verse and base a theory on that, instead of reading who or what the verse was about. You have to read the whole thing and even then, it leaves you wondering what the heck it all means. LOL
Great discussion...........
2 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
14 Jan 08
Yes it would be nice if both science and religion blended and "joined" ranks so to say...actually in many aspects, of all the sciences Physics is probably the most metaphysical one, which is probably why so many people don't understand it..LOL--I mean try to discuss "flavors", "colors" "sparks", even the theory of relativity will make people's heads spin
Mmmm..have to agree that maybe my post was a tad long....the writer in me I guess...rather long-winded..hehe
But you're right in general there...people just don't want to explore new dimensions of awareness by reading and perhaps understanding the world around them better. One of the things that did spark this discussion too, since I'm aware of certain Christian sects that do take the Bible as literal truth...they put earplugs in their ears anytime any discussion evolves around evolution itself..that mankind was able to populate the world due to Adam and Eve...from a genetic standpoint that would have made mankind a short-lived species as it would have meant the population was interbreeding and had incestuous relationship as everyone would have been related to everyone else...also it kind of got my goat that one person had said that God only gave man intelligence and a soul...sorry, there are many species of animals that demonstrate intelligence and maybe yes, they can't communicate the way humans do but nonetheless do communicate..and I firmly believe animals have souls as well--but try to tell that to a person who believes that only humans are intelligence and its a losing battle...besides...ARE we really so intelligent? Mankind has to be the most destructive and dangerous of all species..the saying goes if one doesn't learn from history we are condemned to repeat it...have we learned? Think not
@barehugs (8973)
• Canada
13 Jan 08
thanks for this Post! Its well reasearched, informative and thoughtfully written. The fault here is with Organised Religion. The Christian Churches are very wealthy, and very powerful. They are the richest business organisations on earth. They have been operating for almost 2000 years completely Tax Free. Is there any wonder they propagate their propaganda? The sad part of it is the churches have built their fortunes principally on the backs of the poorest peasants. It seems as if the majority of church people need something to believe in. There's no doubt in my mind that Organised religion fills a need.
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Thank you barehugs :)
Yes I think throughout the centuries the church's main goal in a way was to control people...most people of earlier times were illiterate, couldn't even read the Bible, only the monks in monasteries could read and write and before the invention of the printing press most didn't even have books..therefore they had to rely on the church officials to "hear" the word of God--uh, kind of convenient, no?
@catskisses (434)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Oh, I simpy cannot let this one pass lol.. I willingly jump into the pyre with ya Pye..
First, may I say that as far as I can tell there is only one part of the Bible which is literally the 'word of God'.. that is the Ten Commandments said to be 'written by the finger of God'.. this said, the remainder is supposed to be 'inspired' by God.. okay, so if, as the Bible says, all humans are imperfect, must we not assume that their works may also be imperfect? That their understanding of what God was telling them be imperfect? That their phrasing be imperfect? and on and on?
The admonishment not to question the Bible is fear based.. if the Bible is so perfect, why can it not withstand questioning?
Many Christians deny the facts of the compilation of the Bible by the Ncean Council because it casts doubt upon this supposed 'perfection'.. it raises the question "What was left out or changed and why?".. it then raises the possbility that much of what God intended his people to know has been hidden..
I would think that if Jehovah and the Bible were so perfect no amount of questioning could threaten them, he would, in fact, welcome questioning as this is how humans learn.. surely an omnipotent and perfect god has answers for any question a mere human could conceive of..
Assuming humans to be imperfect, how could the Bible have been translated from the original Greek without error?
If all the authors of the Biblical books and all the monks who copied and translated them were so perfect, then there have been a whole lot more perfect humans than the Bible itelf would lead one to believe existed..
These are the sort of questions which got me tossed out of the Baptist church in which I was raised..
2 people like this
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
14 Jan 08
Hehe....oh, my they must have just loved you in that Baptist church..NOT.
I think so many of the various Christian sects do have that fire and brimstone, hell and damnation attitude and to "fear" God. Thank goodness I was never raised that way but taught God as love.
Yes the Bible was translated so many times, first from Hebrew, then Aramaic, then Greek, then Latin...so of course a lot of the original words or meanings were lost.
As far as "much of what God intended his people to know has been hidden.." Is this kind of the truth about everything? It basically stems from controlling the masses and what to "allow" them to believe. I can't help wondering how much of the original documents were completely destroyed too, cause if they were ever found it might have completely upset the apple cart of religious beliefs in general.
Since we're both jumping into that pyre..want some toasted marshmallows first?
Mmm..question..how did you become "enlightened" and questioning about your religion..just curious :)
@LeighAngela (8)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Well I cannot read your whole post as it is way too long for 3 am, but I agree with you.
I was raised Lutheran and I now respect all religions. The books are just propaganda for each religion and they all teach pretty much the same lessons. People would be much more balanced and healthy if they respected all religions and appreciated what they all had to offer rather than wasting their energy defending their religion with blinders on.
@pyewacket (43903)
• United States
13 Jan 08
Yes there is that feeling that the books can be viewed as propaganda and I think in times past especially to control its followers by specific dogma and principles
